I Can't Repair My Battleships!



  • The Europe rulebook (the one that has precedence in the normal rules according to the Global rules) on page 21 says “The original controller is still in the game but can’t collect income from any territories he or she still controls and can’t buy units. The player skips all but the Combat Move, Conduct Combat, and Noncombat Move phases until the capital is liberated. If that power or one on its side liberates the capital the original controller can once again collect income from territories je or she controls, including territories reverting control to him or her.”

    This is not necessarily a question, but if I take this literally I must skip the Purchase and Repair units phase if my capital is captured  and lose my ability to repair capital ships!

    Was this intended, by accident but should be taken as a rule anyway, or by accident and should be ignored?



  • Great question



  • Based on wording, it seems you can’t repair ships however I thought all it takes for ships to be repaired is to get to a friendly port and ta da, it’s good?



  • A bit weird with the wording.

    But what would happen if germany captures russia and in the same turn russia captures germany.
    Russia now has money, so why cant they spend it?

    But the whole section is kinda useless, you dont get to collect income would be enough.
    You cant buy units without money so you dont have to skip the step you just buy forces with all the cash (0) you have.



  • @ShadowHAwk:

    A bit weird with the wording.

    But what would happen if germany captures russia and in the same turn russia captures germany.
    Russia now has money, so why cant they spend it?

    But the whole section is kinda useless, you dont get to collect income would be enough.
    You cant buy units without money so you dont have to skip the step you just buy forces with all the cash (0) you have.

    I agree with Shadowhawk,

    Repairing is a mechanic of the harbor. If a damaged capital ship is next to an operational harbor it automatically repairs during the purchase and repair phase. All that can stop a repair is a harbor that is not operational. So if your country has “0” money, you cant repair the harbor, then your ship cant repair.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Official Q&A TripleA Moderator

    @Momentum:

    The Europe rulebook (the one that has precedence in the normal rules according to the Global rules) on page 21 says “The original controller is still in the game but can’t collect income from any territories he or she still controls and can’t buy units. The player skips all but the Combat Move, Conduct Combat, and Noncombat Move phases until the capital is liberated. If that power or one on its side liberates the capital the original controller can once again collect income from territories je or she controls, including territories reverting control to him or her.”

    This is not necessarily a question, but if I take this literally I must skip the Purchase and Repair units phase if my capital is captured  and lose my ability to repair capital ships!

    You read the rules correctly, Momentum.

    @Caesar:

    … however I thought all it takes for ships to be repaired is to get to a friendly port and ta da, it’s good?

    No, remember:

    @rulebook:

    Naval Base:

    Repairs: Capital ships (aircraft carriers and battleships) can be repaired by moving those units to a sea zone serviced
    by an operative controlled or friendly naval base. Damaged ships are repaired at no IPC cost during the Purchase and
    Repair Units phase of their owning player’s turn
    if they are in a sea zone serviced by an operative friendly naval base,
    including one repaired in the current turn.

    So: no capital -> no Purchase and Repair Phase -> no capital ships repair at Naval Bases


  • Official Q&A

    @ShadowHAwk:

    A bit weird with the wording.

    But what would happen if germany captures russia and in the same turn russia captures germany.
    Russia now has money, so why cant they spend it?

    Because that function isn’t allowed when your capital is held by the enemy.  Spending and production direction are high-level government functions, which cannot be accomplished while the capital is enemy-held.

    @ShadowHAwk:

    But the whole section is kinda useless, you dont get to collect income would be enough.
    You cant buy units without money so you dont have to skip the step you just buy forces with all the cash (0) you have.

    Well, you could in the situation you described above, but that’s not allowed, so the phase is skipped.  It’s supposed to hurt when you lose your capital, so all you can do is move and fight.



  • The original controller of the captured capital is still in
    the game but can’t collect income from any territories he
    or she still controls and can’t buy new units. The player
    skips all but the Combat Move, Conduct Combat, and
    Noncombat Move phases until the capital is liberated
    .
    If that power or one on its side liberates the capital,
    the original controller can once again collect income
    from territories he or she controls, including territories
    reverting control to him or her.

    You guys are correct, thanks for clearing that up. Been doing that wrong.



  • @Krieghund:

    @ShadowHAwk:

    A bit weird with the wording.

    But what would happen if germany captures russia and in the same turn russia captures germany.
    Russia now has money, so why cant they spend it?

    Because that function isn’t allowed when your capital is held by the enemy.  Spending and production direction are high-level government functions, which cannot be accomplished while the capital is enemy-held.

    @ShadowHAwk:

    But the whole section is kinda useless, you dont get to collect income would be enough.
    You cant buy units without money so you dont have to skip the step you just buy forces with all the cash (0) you have.

    Well, you could in the situation you described above, but that’s not allowed, so the phase is skipped.  It’s supposed to hurt when you lose your capital, so all you can do is move and fight.

    Nice but not repairing a ship at a naval base does not no sense at all.

    The older A&A games had much simpler rules because no cash = nothing to buy.
    So there was no distinction or skipping phases.

    I doubt it that the devs would have made provisions in their rules for something that actualy in real games does not happen ( capturing a capital while your own is captured ), it is more likely that they wanted to clarify the rules but forgot that they actualy changed the rules.


  • Official Q&A

    @ShadowHAwk:

    The older A&A games had much simpler rules because no cash = nothing to buy.
    So there was no distinction or skipping phases.

    The Classic rules state that you may not collect income or buy units while your capital is enemy-held, which is pretty much the same thing.  The phase skipping language first appeared in Revised.

    @ShadowHAwk:

    I doubt it that the devs would have made provisions in their rules for something that actualy in real games does not happen ( capturing a capital while your own is captured )

    That eventuality was considered and accounted for.

    @ShadowHAwk:

    it is more likely that they wanted to clarify the rules but forgot that they actualy changed the rules.

    No, it was intentional.  The skipping of phases removes all ambiguity as to what is and is not allowed while your capital is enemy-held. As I said, the intention is (and always has been) that you’re only allowed to move and fight.


  • 2018 2017 '16

    I had never considered whether or not you could repair capital ships if your capital was lost. This has been an eye-opener. It might have made sense to allow them to be repaired only at an a naval base belonging to an ally, but, dems da rules.



  • Imagine the chaos of your Capitol under enemy control. Especially for the bases near the Capitol city. You surely wouldn’t have your men casually wrenching and welding away on broken boats like business as usual. However, this is why I think Canada deserves to be it’s own Nation in Global 1940 and people should probably make house rules as such.

    (We’ve been toying around with having Canada having a small income that it flakes off of UKE and UKP and just having them move with the UK. If London falls then Canada can still build to help. The first between UK Pac and Canada to fly any air unit or sail any sea unit to South Africa or any other factories the UK might have built sets up new Command and leadership and may build there. Canada and UK pac would never have a ton of money to branch out after London falls but it at least gives them a shot to move a few of those pieces around in the Europe side, maybe even in conjunction with a damaged Capitol ship that can’t repair 😉



  • It seems illogical though that your port, let alone a friendly one couldn’t repair your ships.


  • 2018 2017

    Especially considering that in other versions, nothing is required to repair your BBs, not even time.

    But whatever, it makes BBs weaker if they cant soak after soak after soak…


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Well I’m here to muddy the waters further; but with some answers.

    Because the British essentially have two capitals, I would imagine this means that if London falls, no British repairs can be made on the Europe side of the board? and the same on the pacific side of the board should Calcutta fall?

    So if say the British Battleship makes it to Sydney or San Francisco…  whilst Calcutta is captured,  No repairs!

    What if there is a naval base in Western Canada or West India in a global game? LOL what then?  I suppose it’s reliant on the capital that is collecting it as income?

    Interesting that it has no effect on allied powers.  I guess they are just able to “use” the facility so long as it isn’t damaged.



  • @Gargantua:

    Well I’m here to muddy the waters further; but with some answers.

    Because the British essentially have two capitals, I would imagine this means that if London falls, no British repairs can be made on the Europe side of the board? and the same on the pacific side of the board should Calcutta fall?

    So if say the British Battleship makes it to Sydney or San Francisco…  whilst Calcutta is captured,  No repairs!

    What if there is a naval base in Western Canada or West India in a global game? LOL what then?  I suppose it’s reliant on the capital that is collecting it as income?

    Interesting that it has no effect on allied powers.  I guess they are just able to “use” the facility so long as it isn’t damaged.

    At that point, that could be an annoying “perk” to have, honestly though at the end of the day, just take your ships to a friendly port.



  • Well lets think about this logically.

    USA capital is lost….ALLIES CONCEED
    Russian capital is lost…who cares when it comes to ships.
    German capital is lost…Axis concede.
    Italy capital is lost…who cares, it is Italy.
    Japan capital is lost…Axis concede.
    ANZAC capital is lost…who?
    China is decimated… why do I care?

    So all we are left with is the UK.

    UK is the only power that by the rules has 2 capitals and two separate economies.

    Now lets say that UK Europe falls. UK still has a capital in the far East. At this point is when the debate starts.

    Can UK ships only repair on the Pacific map on UK / Allied ports? According to the rules the UK Europe side of the map can only perform Combat moves and non Combat moves BUT the Pacific UK map they can still perform purchase and repair. So, the only free UK repair services can be found on the Pacific map for UK capital ships.

    Now lets throw a wrench into this discussion. What happens if a USA capital ship is off the shores of Egypt, UK Europe has fallen BUT Egypt is still in UK hands. Can the USA repair off the UK Egypt port because USA ships can repair in the build and repair phase of their turn? Of course they can because USA ships will pay cold hard cash to the Egyptians to perform the repairs. Plus, by the rules…USA Capital ships can repair on any UK Europe map port as long as the USA capital has not fallen.

    SO

    IF UK naval units are on the Pacific map they can be repaired, regardless if the unit was a Europe or Pacific map capital ship. If it is in a Pacific Naval port they can be repaired.

    Case closed.

    😮



  • Now lets look at a real world scenario why UK ships cannot be repaired on the USA EAST coast after London falls.

    UK Capital ship pulls into the New York ship yards looking for some free repairs.

    The ship yard long shoremen union just laughs in their face that they are going to repair the ship for free……fork up some money.

    They do not care that London has fallen and we are on the same side…the Union wants their money…NOTHING IS FREE, EVEN IN WAR.

    If you are a follower of the Ferngi rules of aquistion this makes perfect sense.



  • I am just surprised that stock rules have repair on ships for free, you have to repair factories, airfields, and ports. So why not ships?



  • I know I sounded hypocritical by saying this is not a question than asking one, but my point of even posting it was to start a discussion.  I also wonder how many of you actually followed this rule.  This came to me when I was thinking about that classic A&A rule about you can only do Phases X, Y, and Z if your capital is taken.  I thought it was weird and made no sense definitely that your ally can’t heal your capital ships like you guy brought up.

    By the way, the rule book actually addresses the issue of UK repairs (to an extent as you will soon see), as the Global rules state that “An economy whose capital is held by the Axis can’t collect income, spend IPCs, or repair units (pg. 35 of both rule books)”. The rule book also says that the two economies makes their own separate repairs so I am assuming that only repair your ships with Naval Bases on the territories that would belong to that economy who retains their capital should they fall into the hands of the UK.

    But what economy would the Allied capitals fall under as they can never be controlled by the UK, as the definition of the economies in the rulebook rely on UK owning territories.  Therefore the rulebook (as far as I know) never say what economy the non-UK territories fall under…



  • @Momentum:

    I know I sounded hypocritical by saying this is not a question than asking one, but my point of even posting it was to start a discussion.  I also wonder how many of you actually followed this rule.  This came to me when I was thinking about that classic A&A rule about you can only do Phases X, Y, and Z if your capital is taken.  I thought it was weird and made no sense definitely that your ally can’t heal your capital ships like you guy brought up.

    By the way, the rule book actually addresses the issue of UK repairs, as the Global rules state that “An economy whose capital is held by the Axis can’t collect income, spend IPCs, or repair units (pg. 35 of both rule books)”.  Maybe the rule was more thought out than I originally had anticipated…

    Right but now we’re questioning logic behind the rules. On the Allies side for sure, US Lend-Lease anything and everything and in the case of naval ships, they literally gave them out for free and demanded return of them regardless of condition after the war. So this puts more thought that allies should be able to repair ships.



  • @Caesar Seriona: Sorry for the misquote you now have on your post as I modified my post.



  • @PainState:

    Now lets look at a real world scenario why UK ships cannot be repaired on the USA EAST coast after London falls.

    UK Capital ship pulls into the New York ship yards looking for some free repairs.

    The ship yard long shoremen union just laughs in their face that they are going to repair the ship for free……fork up some money.

    They do not care that London has fallen and we are on the same side…the Union wants their money…NOTHING IS FREE, EVEN IN WAR.

    If you are a follower of the Ferngi rules of aquistion this makes perfect sense.

    It does not work that way in times of war.
    Unions dont exist when it comes to war production you want to start a strike during wartime you find yourself in front of a fireing squad really quicky.
    Its high treason and in times of war not the smartest thing to do.

    A lot of things are possible in wartime that we would not even consider in peace time, just think at the battle of midway 1 of the carriers actualy sailed while undergoing repairs just to be on time.
    Yes thats right the civilian repair crews where onboard actively making repairs while the ship was heading into a combat zone.
    8 hour shifts? Yea right how about round the clock shifts of 12-14 hours to get stuff done.

    So yes an allied ship sailing into port requiring repairs would mean get more men and patch it up. We figure out who pays the bill after the war.



  • Even more so with US running Lend Lease and Canada running Cash and Carry. Lend Lease had stipulations that naval vessels were to be transferred to Allied nation under the condition they be returned to the US after the war regardless of condition. And another great example is that before US entered WWI, the US government basically for saw the US rail road corporations making demands for the war so to get around that, they basically eminent domain the rail lines. So yeah, I bet the civilian division were conscripted into military service without actually joining. Another example of this is our Maritime Fleets where during peace they operation normally but under war are instantly part of the US navy as an auxiliary fleet.


  • 2020 2019 2018 Customizer

    I always interpreted the rule as if you simply had no cash and cannot spend it on anything. So to me BB repairs would still be possible, but I was wrong (never happened at our games anyways as far as I can remember)

    But with the split UK economy the rules as they should be interpreted are even more strange to me. Anyways: good original question and good follow on question about the UK. Let’s see what Krieghund’s view is on this matter.


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