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Russian/German front deadzone question…



  • Is there any way on G2 that I can retake the territory Russia took on R1 without turning those territories into deadzones?


  • 2007 AAR League

    …and which areas would it be that Russia captures on R1?

    1. West Russia & Ukraine seems to be the most common avenue of attack for Russia

    or

    1. The 2nd most common attack: Belorussia & West Russia , imo.


  • I don’t think it’s feasible to retake any territories and not turn them into deadzones. West Russia is absolutely out of the question, as even if you have terrific dice and somehow overcome the stack there, both the Moscow and Caucasus buys are ready to hit you. Any territories other than West Russia are subject to an counterattack by the West Russia stack, so…

    The only way I can think of is if you buy 8 tanks to start with and go en force into Ukraine or something. Then your deadzone would be more effective temporarily and probably the Russians wouldn’t try to attack you if you massed there because of the 8 tanks coming right behind, but it’s very hard to maintain a constant stream of tanks if UK decides to pick up on the lack of defense for the Baltic fleet.



  • Well most of the time my friend playing Russia will attack West Russia, Ukraine and Belorussia. Then I usually send all I can at Cauucasus and use that to deploy my newly bought German forces at the end of my turn, depending on the situation I also try to take back Ukraine and Belorussia since his forces were spread out trying to take three territories at once.



  • You can’t deploy forces in a complex you just captured; it has to be in a complex you’ve had control of since the beginning of the turn.

    But yeah if the Russians spread to a 3-way attack, then take advantage of where they failed because there’s a very good chance that one of those attacks failed or depleted their forces too much.



  • Oops. Newb mistake, sorry!



  • If Russia does the West Russia Stack (a VERY sound strategy), then in all honesty… no, Germany cannot counter in Belorussia or West Russia.

    The counter is to PREPARE for future combats, and to flank Russia.

    The Belorussia/West Russia open creates a thin/vacant Russia position in the Northern  axis of attack (Karelia & Archangel).  This area allows Germany to re-gain some/all of the IPC losses to Russia in R1, but will be thinly held (though Karelia can be stacked, at the expense of other fronts).

    Basically, as Germany, you want to fortify a frontier of Ukraine/Eastern/Karelia as heavilly and as quickl;y as possible.  Eastern will be your STRONGEST position, with Ukraine Second and Karelia 3rd.  Once you fortify to the point where your Eastern forces can withstand a counter by teh West Russia Stack you move into and re-take Belorussia.  This gives you a solid and cohesive 3 territory front versus Russia.

    If you want to be daring, take Archangel too to threaten Russia itself, just remember that West Russia can strike Karelia directly.

    The better answer is that once you have the K/B/U front fortified… TAKE OUT THE WEST RUSSIA STACK!  You can use ALL 3 of your frontal territories for the offensive to take and HOLD West Russia.  Then you threaten both Caucuses and Russia, and you attack the weaker territory.

    Build INF and ART early, follow up with ARM.  Then crack West Russia about G3 or 4.



  • Thanks for the help ncscswitch.



  • I am playing  Germany for the first time in a live game with my buddies…   I am anticipating them to employ the west russia stack with the 4 inf build in the Caucaus.  I don’t believe the player playing Russia will try to take the Ukraine on R1.  My counter in my mock games has been to consolidate in Bel. with my inf and tanks.  I go after the BB in the Med with 3 fig and a bomber(land them on WEU, attack the destroyer in Egypt with a BB, tran(with inf and tank), and plane(lands in SEU).  I attack Egypt 5 on 3 with another plane(lands in libya).  I sink the transport in Canada with my Atlantic sub, move the Baltic fleet into a blocking postion in Norway.  I bring the Norway troops east with plane support and take out the minimal armies in Karelia.  I drop a few inf and the art in WEU.  I have tried different builds turns G1-G3…  If I build tanks thru the 3 rounds, I am able to take the West Russia stack, but I leave the tanks exposed to easy counter.  I can bring the 5 inf and 10 tanks(2 from EGY and 8 from G1 build) into the Ukraine on G2…  This allows me take the Caucaus after the Russians counter the West Russia strike.  Also, the Russians will be around 50/50 on taking the Caucaus back in R3.  The issue is…   By the end of Round 2, the KGF strategy will be starting to gather some steam.  You need to start shuffling troops to protect Western Europe(Norway will be a loss).  Should I build tanks in G2 to continue my push in the East?  Or should I build Inf to attempt to stop the invasion of WEU in round 4?  Also, in my mock games…  if I build all inf, every turn, The Eastern front comes to a grind…  Is it better to play for a long game with Japan saving the day, or go for the quick strike?  It seems to me Russia has just enough to prevent itself from falling in 4 rounds…   which is enough for the other Allies to start making Germany miserable.  any ideas?  Thanks in advance.



  • I would advise a combination of both INF and tanks. As I learned in revised early on, unlike in classic, the new territories in the east simply make the classical IPM a difficult sell because instead of being to the front in a turn or two it’s more like three. Plus with tanks new defense, you can leave a few of them in a zone with some INF fodder and it’s not a bad defensive setup. I think you can plan on the WEu defense just enough so that it will be a struggle to take it and BE SURE if you’re going to trade it back and forth (if you have to) that you don’t let the UK take it otherwise it can be reinforced by USA before Germany gets the chance to re-take. To me, though, I try and let Russia have no time to breathe beacuse if they get into a static game with Germany it lets them shift some forces to slow down Japan and all they really need is to delay Japan a turn or two extra and by that time you’re dealing with some pretty powerful Allied forces.

    Played properly, I do believe Germany can blast Russia into submission within a few rounds (barring really bad roles) or at least have them on the ropes. They can usually do this before either side is ready to land in WEu, unless the Allies are VERY aggressive.



  • Played properly, I do believe Germany can blast Russia into submission within a few rounds (barring really bad roles) or at least have them on the ropes. They can usually do this before either side is ready to land in WEu, unless the Allies are VERY aggressive.

    I personally don’t think so. I think that if any nation falls before Round 6-7, then it’s bad dice or bad strategy. The Allies aren’t in control of their navy and their system if they aren’t dropping stuff in Europe by Round 3 at the latest, and they should have been doing things in Africa as well as threatening Western Europe so Russia shouldn’t be in dire straits.



  • I personally don’t think so. I think that if any nation falls before Round 6-7, then it’s bad dice or bad strategy. The Allies aren’t in control of their navy and their system if they aren’t dropping stuff in Europe by Round 3 at the latest, and they should have been doing things in Africa as well as threatening Western Europe so Russia shouldn’t be in dire straits.

    Well, I guess the games I’ve played have been a bit more aggressive on the part of the Axis. Interrupting the US shuck with a small landing in Alaska plus taking out Africa (thus depriving UK for a few rounds) will keep the Allies at bay and, quite frankly, and especially if you are going with a pretty heavy tank build as Germany, you can chip at Russia for a few rounds and finally have them ready to get cracked. The key is never letting them get where they can purchase offensive weapons (tanks in this case) and make them stick to INF/ RTL combos, weakening that ability every turn due to IPC loss. I do appreciate what you’re saying, however; just presenting another view.



  • One thing about the belorussia/west russia attack is that Russia usually has to fortify caucus to keep the germans from taking it. Germany taking caucus is not the end if they cannot hold it, and if they attacked in G1 they would not be able to hold it. But, there is some advantage to taking caucus if it is somewhat weakly held on G1, especially if the fighters are there. It delays 4 troops for 2 turns from reaching the german front, which I view as quite advantageous and will jump on caucus if given the opportunity in G1. I find that typically russia will put up a pretty decent defense in caucus though, which is sort of what I am (slowly) getting to.

    If the russian attacks belorussia/west russia, I pay close attention to what the russian takes west russia with. Lets say russia takes it with 4 inf, 4 armor. As Germany I will probably jump all over that from ukraine, with armor support from balkans/eastern europe and fighter/bomber support. In this scenario, the chances of taking out west russia are well in your favor. The tradeoff would probably be something like you lose 4 inf, 2 armor and kill 4 inf, 4 armor. Your armor are dead on a counter, of course, but as germany I will trade german tanks for russian tanks any day of the week. If karelia is left vacant because of the belorussia attack you can also blitz through there, and if the battle goes well for you retreat to karelia when russia has 1-2 armor left.

    While this does not solve your dead zone problem, it is a very potent counter. If your opponent is attacking belorussia/westrussia/ukraine, I would be very happy if I were you. His tradeoff on all of those territories will be quite in your favor, and he will lose anything he managed to attack belorussia/ukraine with which will likely be a tasty treat like an armor.



  • Well, I guess the games I’ve played have been a bit more aggressive on the part of the Axis. Interrupting the US shuck with a small landing in Alaska plus taking out Africa (thus depriving UK for a few rounds) will keep the Allies at bay and, quite frankly, and especially if you are going with a pretty heavy tank build as Germany, you can chip at Russia for a few rounds and finally have them ready to get cracked. The key is never letting them get where they can purchase offensive weapons (tanks in this case) and make them stick to INF/ RTL combos, weakening that ability every turn due to IPC loss. I do appreciate what you’re saying, however; just presenting another view.

    How is this done exactly?

    With a heavy tank build as Germany, you probably have very little defense for your Baltic fleet, as well as Western Europe. This means the UK is landing in Europe very early, which isn’t good. I beat my friends using a pure mass tank build for the first 3 rounds, but they are inexperienced.

    Taking out Africa is pretty difficult if the UK takes India troops and attacks Egypt on round 1, followed by a Round 2 landing in Algeria with both US/UK troops.

    A small landing in Alaska is unlikely to disrupt the US shuck significantly, as they can have 5 infantry sitting in Western Canada from initial troops, the bomber from London can reach Alaska, plus any landing you do removes pressure from Russia.



  • The Baltic fleet is not the primary concern… it’s almost an afterthought. Heavy tank builds do not preclude going with INF for defense and in any case you can keep West Europe safe for a few rounds before UK/ USA can make a significant landing there. How early are we talking about a UK landing in West Europe? If Japan goes with a J1 IC in FIC she can pour INF + fighters/ tanks and be at the gates of the Caucuses/ Novosibersk in a few turns.

    Germany can take Africa and hold it if she is willing to committ some of the air power there, even with the Indian replenishment. Plus air in Africa can help to take out a minor US fleet that might try for an early strike on Africa to disrupt German plans. As for the Alaska landing… admittedly, that’s the furthest stretch of strategy, but if the US player on US1 goes heavy navy then it’s a feasible thing to draw a little attention off. I’m not talking about slowing down the US for 3 turns or anything; just a little delay that can make the difference between Germany cracking Russia or not. As for the stopping of pressure on Russia, I believe Japan can keep both up especially with a heavy transport build.



  • How early are we talking about a UK landing in West Europe?

    We’re talking round 2 if you don’t beef up the Baltic. Round 1 the Baltic fleet is gone to 2 fighters + 1 bomber, and the UK purchase is 2 tran 3 inf 1 tank. That means 4 inf + 3 tank + 1 art + battleship + remaining airforce can attack Western Europe on Round 2, and a UK purchase in Round 2 could instantly reinforce the navy with say a carrier or something if the German airforce looks problematic.

    Germany can take Africa and hold it if she is willing to committ some of the air power there, even with the Indian replenishment.

    You can’t take Africa in the long run without spending too much effort there. Any airforce you commit down there is stuff not being used against the Russians, nor threatening any of the Allied shipping. The Allies can always make 1 big drop in Algeria and start marching down on turn 2 (latest 3) which costs you resources to deal with.

    Just how heavy are your tank builds? Like 6 tanks + 3 infantry, about that much?



  • I am beginning to think it is better to play for a long game…  Heavy INF builds, with light TNK builds.  I typically try to splash the tran in Canada with my sub, sink the BB in the med with 3 planes and a bomber(land remainder in WEU). This also keeps the US out of Algeria in R1 unless he likes the transports sunk.  I Attack Egypt if the Russians leave the Ukraine alone, or Jordan(Egypt in G2) if the Ukraine plane is scapped by the Russians.  Since the Baltic fleet is fodder, I usually move them into a Norway blocking position in G1.  This at least keeps the Brits out of Norway in G1, and it allows me to mobilize the Norway troops to the east.  You could use Eastern Europe as your main staging point in the east(the tanks can be used to counter a WEU invasion).  Unfortunately, the low mobility of the infantry will allow the Russians to dig in.  The Eastern front would stalemate almost instantly.  If the Russians don’t tread in an area where to can counterattack strongly, they should be fine.  Because their(Russia) supply lines are shorter, you won’t be able to effectively force the matter either.  The result would be easy demolition of your(Germany’s) exposed tanks.  You can make early gains in Africa, but you should be nearly kicked out by round 5 or 6.  Germany should be pulling 40+IPCs for the first 3 rounds, and 35+ for the next 3.  If you take a defensive stance, you should be able to last into round 9.  The only question that remains is how quickly can Japan make the Russians miserable?  Any flaws in this thinking?

    @trihero:

    How early are we talking about a UK landing in West Europe?

    We’re talking round 2 if you don’t beef up the Baltic. Round 1 the Baltic fleet is gone to 2 fighters + 1 bomber, and the UK purchase is 2 tran 3 inf 1 tank. That means 4 inf + 3 tank + 1 art + battleship + remaining airforce can attack Western Europe on Round 2, and a UK purchase in Round 2 could instantly reinforce the navy with say a carrier or something if the German airforce looks problematic.

    Germany can take Africa and hold it if she is willing to committ some of the air power there, even with the Indian replenishment.

    You can’t take Africa in the long run without spending too much effort there. Any airforce you commit down there is stuff not being used against the Russians, nor threatening any of the Allied shipping. The Allies can always make 1 big drop in Algeria and start marching down on turn 2 (latest 3) which costs you resources to deal with.

    Just how heavy are your tank builds? Like 6 tanks + 3 infantry, about that much?



  • Wilinkinson… you need to read some of the threads about building an AC in the Baltic or building Trannies in the Baltic on G1.

    An AC + 2 existing FIGs makes the Baltic fleet a SERIOUS fleet, and it only costs 16 IPC’s to create that whole fleet.  You still have 24 IPC’s (equal to Russia) for land builds then in G1…

    And yes, go heavy on INF, but not TOTALLY INF as Germany.  A few ART added to the mix is a MASSIVE multiplier of your offensive firepower.  And a few ARM will add defense, offense, and SPEED to your attacks.



  • Wow! I’ve got enough in here to keep me busy for days reading.



  • Ideally you want to keep WEu supplied with INF + tanks (and some air force for the shipping pickoffs)… but if you don’t keep the pressure on the East you allow the Russians to start moving forces to deal with Japan plus allowing them to throw in a few tank buys in order to develop a much nicer strafing force against both (if Japan goes through Sinkiang).

    Round 1 the Baltic fleet is gone to 2 fighters + 1 bomber, and the UK purchase is 2 tran 3 inf 1 tank.

    If the UK wants to gamble a bit on that one… I don’t have my statistics chart out for the battle but there’s a chance if the rolls don’t go well for the UK that it’s a significant loss that early for the cost of taking out what is essentially a fodder fleet (if Germany does not bulk it up on any G1) and as the UK I’d rather wait until I’ve got a carrier there for planes as this makes it easier for them to get to Russia. I don’t deny that it could be wiped out on G1 but that’s a chance one has to take.

    That means 4 inf + 3 tank + 1 art + battleship + remaining airforce can attack Western Europe on Round 2, and a UK purchase in Round 2 could instantly reinforce the navy with say a carrier or something if the German airforce looks problematic.

    Point taken but again if Germany sees a UK build on UK1 of the transports plus INF/ tank then it’s a matter of putting some more INF there and moving some of the tanks purchased during G1 in (along with airforce which, most likely, there is a presence anyways) and again I don’t have my board with me but it’s not something that cannot be dealt with by the Germans. It’s a fluid issue: the G2 buy depends on how UK1 goes and how things are in the east. But I stand by the idea that getting a lot of tanks on the board early with Germany helps them because it gives them the offensive power to strafe Russia and crack them eventually.

    Africa does not need a tremendous amount of work (to take) and in any case it’s only to be held for a turn or two for the added IPCs and to slow down the UK builds. They will get it back (that’s a fact) and unless you start landing Japanese troops there you cannot contest it without, as you said, pouring resources into it… resources needed on the Eastern Front.

    As for my tank builds… 5/5 (inf/tanks) is more like it… (for G1 and maybe G2 anyways)… maybe we’ve been arguing over confusion on heavy tank build  :-). I would consider light tank builds for Germany somewhere around 3. You can always turtle as Germany and go heavy INF if you need but later in the game it’s not as easy to get the offensive weapons out on the board as it is earlier, thus my preference for the offensive firepower right away.

    Keep the Russians focused on Germany… don’t let them shift to an Eastern front because if Japan cannot get near Moscow/ Caucuses quickly it’s lights out for the Axis.



  • Round 1 the Baltic fleet is gone to 2 fighters + 1 bomber, and the UK purchase is 2 tran 3 inf 1 tank.

    If the UK wants to gamble a bit on that one.

    It’s about 74% for the UK to wipe out an unbuffed Baltic fleet. If somehow something survived then the American fighter + bomber should take care of it.

    Point taken but again if Germany sees a UK build on UK1 of the transports plus INF/ tank then it’s a matter of putting some more INF there and moving some of the tanks purchased during G1 in (along with airforce which, most likely, there is a presence anyways)

    But you would actually have to dedicate quite a bit of force to defend Western Europe, which is force you’re not using against Russia.

    I would consider light tank builds for Germany somewhere around 3. You can always turtle as Germany and go heavy INF if you need but later in the game it’s not as easy to get the offensive weapons out on the board as it is earlier, thus my preference for the offensive firepower right away.

    Very interesting way of looking at it. I look at it precisely in reverse, perhaps because of what I’ve read of the old school A&A classic - always try to mass more infantry first than offense, because infantry takes the longest to get places, provides the most efficient defense, and gives you great fodder for attacks. Buying too many tanks weakens your ability to hold territories well, and it gets costly when you’re burning up tanks vs the enemy’s infantry fodder.

    I have done mass tanks build in the past, and they did very well against my friends…but they were inexperienced and applying so little pressure on Germany that I could run them over in like 4-6 turns. I’ll have to try your medium tank build (I would call it medium since you’re buying equal amounts of infantry/tanks), but I sort of recall trying something very similar to that once and I just didn’t have enough defense at some point for some reason. I’ll try it again…



  • @aaFiendish:

    If the russian attacks belorussia/west russia, I pay close attention to what the russian takes west russia with. Lets say russia takes it with 4 inf, 4 armor. As Germany I will probably jump all over that from ukraine, with armor support from balkans/eastern europe and fighter/bomber support.

    This looks like a newbie game

    a) the Russians will have more troops in WR

    the usual opening is 3 Inf + 2 FIG attack Belorussia
    9 Inf, 4 Arm, 2 Art attack WR

    b) Russia will always move its AA in NCR from Russia to WR as the German Bomber is unable to bomb Russia und land safely, with the AA its more than undesirable to use your air force.

    Forget any attack on WR or Caucasus or you screw up Germany already on round 1



  • Without reinforcement, WEU falls to the Allies on Turn 2, and barring a re-direction of those massed ARM that HAD been going to Moscow being turned around and heading for Paris instead, the Allis will KEEP WEU for the remainder of the game.


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