• The unrealistic way in which the interaction between subs and transport ships is depicted in A&A reflects a larger problem which I decribed over here…

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36090.0

    …which is that the game pays little attention to the concept of logistics in general and to the logistical role of sea transportation in particular.

  • '17 '16

    What about a custom/house rule that said all subs rules as-written in-game stand in-place, with the exception that unescorted transports must stop in a SZ with an enemy sub in it, but may pass through the same SZ if escorted by a friendly warship?!? Would that be a game-breaker?


  • Interesting idea Wolf and probably much more realistic. :-)

    However, as it is a game that attempts to allow WW2 to be fought in a matter of hours, realism has to come second to game play. I worry that the need for naval escorts would slow down the allies significantly. The North Atlantic is already a difficult challenge. :?


  • @Wolfshanze:

    I know these are the rules as written, but I’ve always thought they stink on ice… unescorted transports, loaded with war goods sailing through sub-infested waters with ZERO RISK of being sunk, or even stopped…

    It just really smacks me as the most nonsensical rule in A&A.

    I totally agree.

    Thanks for the replies. I’m sure this one is asked all the time but I got unsatisfactory search results.

  • '17 '16

    @Private:

    Interesting idea Wolf and probably much more realistic. :-)

    However, as it is a game that attempts to allow WW2 to be fought in a matter of hours, realism has to come second to game play. I worry that the need for naval escorts would slow down the allies significantly. The North Atlantic is already a difficult challenge. :?

    Not sure how it effects game balance, but I have a real hard time swallowing unescorted transports merrily sailing past U-boats as they wave and jeer at the subs in complete safety… at least make the owning Allied nation be honest enough to provide so much as a single destroyer escort to make us believe there’s some sort of convoy system in place… what happened to the Allies when they sent transports unescorted across the Atlantic during the war? The results were not pleasant.

    I know A&A is abstract, but at least TRY and maintain SOME sort of historical accuracy, or why not replace German Panzers with DAK soldiers riding on elephant sculpts?.. it’s just as real as unescorted transports sailing with immunity past U-Boat wolfpacks.

    You could even go one step further and say any unescorted transport sailing through sub infested waters COULD pass through the zone, but must survive one round of sub combat (if its two subs, the germans get to roll two dice to represent the subs attacking), then the transports move on through… just random thoughts that give some sort of feeling to “battle of the Atlantic” where subs actually do something against troop transports instead of waving them on and wishing them the best of luck.


  • @Wolfshanze:

    what happened to the Allies when they sent transports unescorted across the Atlantic during the war? The results were not pleasant.

    By and large the results were not pleasant, but there was one exception: soldiers sometimes sailed on fast passenger liners which had been redesignated as troopships for war use, most famously the sister ships RMS Queen Mary and RMS Queen Elizabeth.  Liners used as troopships could generally sail unescorted because they were much faster than U-boats (and indeed faster than certain escort ships), which made it essentially impossible for them to be pursued by a sub or cornered by a wolfpack, and made them difficult to line up for passing torpedo shot if a sub encountered one by chance.  And they could carry an awful lot of troops on a single voyage.  But this constitutes a special case, which doesn’t invalidate the more general point that convoys – especially the slower types – were crucial to the British and Japanese war efforts, and thus were crucial targets to German and American submariners respectively.

  • '17 '16

    Well aware of the QE and QM… I wasn’t talking about limited special exceptions, I was talking about the norm and the average. I can site multiple examples of convoys that were savaged and/or nearly destroyed by wolfpacks… there’s at least a couple of examples where escorts were diverted or stripped and disaster struck shortly afterwards. These more normal circumstances, it what should be the target of the “norm” for rules in A&A. If we want to assume the QE and QM are the standard, just make all transports move 3, are immune to naval intercept, and problem solved (that’s a joke of course).


  • @Wolfshanze:

    If we want to assume the QE and QM are the standard, just make all transports move 3, are immune to naval intercept, and problem solved (that’s a joke of course).

    Alternately, we could assume that when they attack naval transports, all submarines – regardless of nationality – use early-WWII era American torpedoes.  That would be safe enough from the point of view of the transports.  And yes, that’s a joke too.

  • '17 '16

    @Wolfshanze:

    What about a custom/house rule that said all subs rules as-written in-game stand in-place, with the exception that unescorted transports must stop in a SZ with an enemy sub in it, but may pass through the same SZ if escorted by a friendly warship?!? Would that be a game-breaker?

    Rule 1: Submarines can only block TP unescorted by surface warship.
    Rule 2 (Second Ed. addition compared to first edition OOB): Any TP unescorted by surface warships can only unload if no enemy sub in SZ.

    Do you think rule 2 would be implied implicitly in Rule 1?

    Here, rule 1 is intented to get same result as you looking for. Does it fit the bill?

    The idea is to get a simple rule on Sub acting like partial blocker.
    In first edition, Sub only fleet could be simply ignored but second edition added a layer of complexity about unloading in Sub infested SZ.


  • They may also put in affect of the amount of water distance in a sea zone where subs are not around.

    I agree with u Wolf. If you don’t want to add Barons rule to game, I like the idea of 1 d6 roll and if sub rolls a 2 or less transport has to stop combat or non combat move.

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