Countering Kill UK First (Sealion + J1/J2 attack)?


  • 2019 2017 2016

    ^ -18 assuming the Japanese take The Philippines. +20 NO income -2 because The Philippines are a 2IPC territory.

    @Caesar:

    Problem I had with J1 DOW is that do you ignore jacking loose USSR territories or do you just focus on China, Dutch, and UK territories? The problem I had with J1 is that if you do not take 10 dollars on the first turn, what was the point of it instead of riding US trade?

    You would definitely ignore USSR with a J1.

    It’s -6 for Japan, +18 for USA, -7 for UK_Pac and +1 for ANZAC, approximately. These calcs miss the main game though which is the strategic positioning that a J1 DOW offers. Also, without taking FIC J1 you can’t build an IC there J2, so if you want to do this even with a J2 DOW you are still losing that 8IPC.

    That -7 for UK_Pac punches above its weight.



  • @simon33:

    @WILD:

    1. Once the Russians are at war with Japan the Russians have no movement restrictions on the Pac side. So yes you can fly Russian planes through China to get to India even if the UK/Japan are still at peace because the UK is not a neutral power.

    Your first point is correct but this one isn’t.

    @Pac:

    As a result, if the Soviet Union is at war with Axis powers on only one map, it is still under the restrictions of being
    a neutral power (see �Powers Not at War with One Another,� page 15) on the other map

    So simon why is this point wrong? If the Russians are at war with Japan by the rule you quoted they would have no movement restrictions on the Pac side. Russia DOW on Japan in many games to send units into China to help prop them up. The UK has some restrictions about moving units into China if not at war w/Japan, but isn’t a neutral power so there are no restrictions stopping Russian planes from landing in India. So I see no problem with Russian units migrating to India through China.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Sorry, must have misread something in there.

    You were right on both points.



  • @WILD:

    If the Russians are at war with Japan by the rule you quoted they would have no movement restrictions on the Pac side. Russia DOW on Japan in many games to send units into China to help prop them up. The UK has some restrictions about moving units into China if not at war w/Japan, but isn’t a neutral power so there are no restrictions stopping Russian planes from landing in India. So I see no problem with Russian units migrating to India through China.

    Thanks Simon and Wild Bill for the answers and discussion.  I learn more about the rules now.

    I would like to try sending Russian units to help China in my next game.  I am thinking the following Russia+China+UK defense strategy against J1 attack:

    Turn 1
    R1: Moscow fighter, Volgograd tank+mech => Sikang

    C1: take Yunnan with minimal force, build 4 inf in Szechwan

    UK1:
    India 1 tack+fighter to Middle East (Middle Earth strategy)
    Sz39 transport 1 inf to Persia
    India 5 inf, 1 art=> Burma
    Burma fighter=> India
    Malaya 3 inf => Shan state
    India build 5 inf

    ANZAC1: Malaya inf => Shan state

    Turn 2
    R2: Sikang fighter => India (there will be R+UK fighters in India to intercept J2 st. bomber SBR)

    C2: take Yunnan with minimal force, build 5 inf in Szechwan

    UK2: (consider the case J1 take Borneo, build 3 transports; J2 build MIC and NB in FIC; move 3 transports to sz36)
    Burma 7 inf => India
    Shan state 3 inf => Burma
    India build 4 inf
    (if no Sealion, build Persia factory)

    ANZAC2: Shan state inf => Burma

    At the end of turn 2, the following units will be available to retake Yunnan from Japan:
    Szechwan: China 5+inf, 1 fighter
    Burma: UK 3 inf, 1 art
    Sikang: Russia 1 tank, 1 mech

    I think the two strategic keys for Russia is to help defend against st. bomber SBR, and prevent J3 take and hold Yunnan, hopefully these can delay Japan by a turn.
    Such strategy tries to utilize Russia’s units before Germany/Italy DoW.  Of course, it might invite Germany to start Barbarossa in G2 (or normal G3).  If this is the case, I will fly the India fighter back to Samara in R3/R4.  But this also means that the UK Persian factory can start pumping tank+mech to India, and arrive India by UK5.  Again the key is not to let Japan hold Yunnan in J3.
    (If Germany goes for Sealion, then Russia builds tank+mech in Volgograd, and pump the UK-Persian factory equivalent amounts to India from R3 onwards.)

    Do you have any comments on how to improve the strategy, or kindly point out things I miss/drawback? (Perhaps a lot of experienced players have tried this before.)

    PS.  Mr.GeneralHandGre’s UK “Middle Earth” strategy: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=39611.0


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    If you transport Indian troops to Africa on Uk1, how do you also take Persia on uk1 to prepare for your uk2 factory?



  • @Argothair:

    If you transport Indian troops to Africa on Uk1, how do you also take Persia on uk1 to prepare for your uk2 factory?

    Thank you Argothair.  My mistake - it should be “transport troops to Middle East” (corrected in Reply#28).

    Turn 1  UK
    Sz39 transport 1 inf to Persia


  • 2019 2017 2016

    I haven’t had much success with strategies like the one proposed except when Germany spends some of its money on fleet. That gives ussr a bit ight breathing room to do something.

    Why don’t you just build a third fighter in Calcutta to defend against sbr? It is well spent.



  • @simon33:

    Why don’t you just build a third fighter in Calcutta to defend against sbr? It is well spent.

    Because I am worrying about a quick J3 Indian Crunch.  I am preparing for the following Japanese movement:
    J1 move 1(2) inf from Kiangsi to Borneo, move 3 inf, 1 art from Japan/Korea/Manchuria to Philippines; J1 build 3 transports
    J2 move 3 inf, 2 art, 1 tank from Japan/Korea/Manchuria to sz36; J2 build naval base in FIC; concentrate all carrier groups in sz36 (each with 1 tact, 1 fighter), bombers in Siam, block sz38 with some fleet
    J3 attack India with 6-8 inf, 3 art, 1 tank, 3 tact, 3 fighters, 2 bombers (can have offshore bombardments)

    According to the build & movement below (no Russian fighter to India), I will have
    16 inf, 1 art, 3 AA, 1 fighter in India for defense.
    This should just be enough to defend India.  If I build a UK fighter in India, then I don’t have enough infantry to defend India.

    Middle East-Indian Wall strategy
    [[to counter J1 attack, no matter Germany goes for sealion or barbarossa]]
    Turn 1
    C1: take Yunnan with minimal force, build 4 inf in Szechwan

    UK1:
    India 1 tack+fighter to Middle East (Middle Earth strategy)
    Sz39 transport 1 inf to Persia
    India 5 inf, 1 art=> Burma
    Burma fighter=> India
    Malaya 3 inf => Shan state
    India build 5 inf

    ANZAC1: Malaya inf => Shan state

    Turn 2
    C2: take Yunnan with minimal force, build 5 inf in Szechwan

    UK2: (consider the case J1 take Borneo, build 3 transports; J2 build MIC and NB in FIC; move 3 transports to sz36)
    Burma 7 inf, 1 art => India
    Shan state 3 inf => Burma
    India build 4 inf
    (if no Sealion, build Persia factory)

    ANZAC2: Shan state inf => Burma

    Turn 3:
    China: aim at taking Yunnan

    @simon33:

    I haven’t had much success with strategies like the one proposed except when Germany spends some of its money on fleet. That gives ussr a bit ight breathing room to do something.

    But I agree with you, in case Germany goes for barbarossa, Russia should focus on wars in Eastern Front.  Again Yunnan and India worries me.  The above implies that China should defend J3 take and hold Yunnan by itself…



  • @hcp:

    @simon33:

    Why don’t you just build a third fighter in Calcutta to defend against sbr? It is well spent.

    Because I am worrying about a quick J3 Indian Crunch.  I am preparing for the following Japanese movement:
    J1 move 1(2) inf from Kiangsi to Borneo, move 3 inf, 1 art from Japan/Korea/Manchuria to Philippines; J1 build 3 transports
    J2 move 3 inf, 2 art, 1 tank from Japan/Korea/Manchuria to sz36; J2 build naval base in FIC; concentrate all carrier groups in sz36 (each with 1 tact, 1 fighter), bombers in Siam, block sz38 with some fleet
    J3 attack India with 6-8 inf, 3 art, 1 tank, 3 tact, 3 fighters, 2 bombers (can have offshore bombardments)

    According to the build & movement below (no Russian fighter to India), I will have
    16 inf, 1 art, 3 AA, 1 fighter in India for defense.
    This should just be enough to defend India.  If I build a UK fighter in India, then I don’t have enough infantry to defend India.

    Middle East-Indian Wall strategy
    [[to counter J1 attack, no matter Germany goes for sealion or barbarossa]]
    Turn 1
    C1: take Yunnan with minimal force, build 4 inf in Szechwan

    UK1:
    India 1 tack+fighter to Middle East (Middle Earth strategy)
    Sz39 transport 1 inf to Persia
    India 5 inf, 1 art=> Burma
    Burma fighter=> India
    Malaya 3 inf => Shan state
    India build 5 inf

    ANZAC1: Malaya inf => Shan state

    Turn 2
    C2: take Yunnan with minimal force, build 5 inf in Szechwan

    UK2: (consider the case J1 take Borneo, build 3 transports; J2 build MIC and NB in FIC; move 3 transports to sz36)
    Burma 7 inf, 1 art => India
    Shan state 3 inf => Burma
    India build 4 inf
    (if no Sealion, build Persia factory)

    ANZAC2: Shan state inf => Burma

    Turn 3:
    China: aim at taking Yunnan

    @simon33:

    I haven’t had much success with strategies like the one proposed except when Germany spends some of its money on fleet. That gives ussr a bit ight breathing room to do something.

    But I agree with you, in case Germany goes for barbarossa, Russia should focus on wars in Eastern Front.  Again Yunnan and India worries me.  The above implies that China should defend J3 take and hold Yunnan by itself…

    If japan plays it right, which it can because your on the defence he can bring another 3 tacs 3 fighters to india.
    So your forces are not really enough to keep india from going down.

    Keeping the tac + fighter in india round 1 gives you the option of counter attacking some japan forces removing 2 land units and 6 air from the fight for the cost of 2 land units of your own might be worth it.


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