Countering Kill UK First (Sealion + J1/J2 attack)?



  • Hello all.  This is the first time I post in the forum.  I am from Hong Kong who love playing Global40.  Hong Kong’s working hours are so long that we can only played it once or twice a year.  I love reading the brilliant discussion and strategies in this forum.

    As an allies player, I struggle to counter the following axis coordination strategy (call it Kill UK First) - Sealion + J1/J2 attack, where the Axis’s strategy is to knock UK out, preventing an UK Persian factory build, and to draw US attention/resource to liberate London.  Then Japan can do a quick Indian Crunch and aim at a fast Pacific win. 
    –- The key is that, this satisfies Germany’s firepower against Russia to prevent UK Europe reinforcing UK Pacific through Persia factory.

    Might I ask your suggestions to counter this strategy?  e.g. shall Russia declare war on Japan and move some of its force to the Chinese/Indian front?  Thank you!

    • Note: I always do Tornado raid in UK1.  Because in case the G1 AC, 2-transport purchase is a faked Sealion, then UK lose the chance to contain Italy early in the game.  Observing what UK1 did in Mediterranean, on G2 Germany always has a choice to turn Kill UK First to G3 Barbarossa.


  • The question about how to see Sealion is this; are you seeing Germany do the classic Sealion build which is either all transports, aircraft carrier, destroyer, submarine, or all infantry? With a J1 attack, having the Soviet Union attack Japan can work for at least reinforce China but that also means is that you might have to play with China a bit more aggressive. I have yet to experience a Japanese players go for a J1, usually they just try to push into China as fast as they can.


  • TripleA

    J1 is common practice, 33% of games are J1 dow 50% j2 dow, at least on the forum ladder and triplea lobby.

    If J1 dow, you can fly usa bomber into UK, to pad the defense. UK1 you want to buy 6 inf 1 fighter or 9 infantry. It is up to you. If you know he is going to DOW J2, you can buy all bombers USA1 for east usa, this can fly into UK to prevent a fast sea lion (he can still dump units on scotland and attack UK Germany round 4 in which case buy lots of mechanized infantry with russia). Usually this makes Japan Dow J3 if he really wants to do sea lion.

    Russia 1 you want to buy 6 artillery 3 mech. russia 2 if he buys sea lion, buy 6 artillery 3 mech again or all mech. You put the heat on with Russia.



  • Problem I had with J1 DOW is that do you ignore jacking loose USSR territories or do you just focus on China, Dutch, and UK territories? The problem I had with J1 is that if you do not take 10 dollars on the first turn, what was the point of it instead of riding US trade?



  • @Caesar:

    Problem I had with J1 DOW is that do you ignore jacking loose USSR territories or do you just focus on China, Dutch, and UK territories? The problem I had with J1 is that if you do not take 10 dollars on the first turn, what was the point of it instead of riding US trade?

    Take a look at cow’s J1 in his Japan Playbook sticky if you haven’t already.  Only J1 if Russia doesn’t stack Siberia.

    Taking FIC turn 1 means mIC turn 2, dropping units there turn 3.


  • TripleA

    I don’t really get why I see all 18 inf and 2 aa retreat from siberia in almost every game. I at least keep 12 to make Japan honest from taking my income right away.

    12 inf 2 aa gun siberia is all you need to stop stupid japan stuff, you can go one spot further east to be really annoying and put japan units far away from where they ideally want to be.



  • @Caesar:

    Problem I had with J1 DOW is that do you ignore jacking loose USSR territories or do you just focus on China, Dutch, and UK territories? The problem I had with J1 is that if you do not take 10 dollars on the first turn, what was the point of it instead of riding US trade?

    You should take 10 ipcs turn 1, but your taking them from the allies ( except france ). You take 7 from UK-Pac and 2 from US. thats a 18 ipc swing right there.



  • Thank you a lot for your reply!

    The core of this strategy is not to get London per se, but to help Japan to win the Pacific side.  Say, if the axis adopts Sealion + J1 dow, as an allies I am so worry that this drains too much money away from the Pacific side of the map in the early game.

    Following cow’s suggestion (building bombers in Eastern US), perhaps we can cause serious damage to Germany, or defend London.  But I am afraid there will be an early fall of Calcutta (J4/J5).  Then Japan can focus on Sydney/Honolulu as the last VC.  Is there any way to help defend Calcutta against an early fall, or to prevent Japan from winning in this case (Sealion + J1 dow)?

    PS. For the Russian front, I prefer to move 12inf 2aa back to Moscow.  Because by R1, I don’t know whether the Sealion is real or fake - in case it’s a fake, I need those infantry to help defend Moscow in R6/7.



  • This whole strategy seems like a bust to me if the idea of J1 involves invading USSR. I play as USSR among my friends and I never withdraw the Red Army in the East, maybe 6 infantry on a bad day at most.


  • TripleA

    Nonono, you don’t invade Russia if you do a J1 dow. You shouldn’t J1 dow if a big stack of russians are eyeing down Korea/manchuria.



  • If there is a J1 attack w/Sea Lion build-up besides flying over the US bomber you could also bulk up allied ships/ftrs at Iceland on turn 1. Then on US2 a US ftr is also on London to defend. If the Germans attack the Iceland fleet (would have had to purchase a carrier G1 or some subs) they will lose some key units or expose their fleet to counter attack. Either way they wouldn’t be able to over power a well defended London (plus you may have saved parts of the UK navy).

    As for the Russian far east units I generally back them off, then if Japan is out of position move 6-12 inf/AA back towards Korea/Manch. I always leave at least a handful to stop a Japanese mechanized force from blitzing those far east territories, but often have 10-12 units heading back in case I need them to defend Moscow, or hold the back door against the Japanese cruising through China.



  • @WILD:

    If there is a J1 attack w/Sea Lion build-up besides flying over the US bomber you could also bulk up allied ships/ftrs at Iceland on turn 1. Then on US2 a US ftr is also on London to defend. If the Germans attack the Iceland fleet (would have had to purchase a carrier G1 or some subs) they will lose some key units or expose their fleet to counter attack. Either way they wouldn’t be able to over power a well defended London (plus you may have saved parts of the UK navy).

    Thank you.  I used to ignore Iceland’s role in defending London in case of J1 attack.

    In case of J1/J2 attack (usually the Japanese fleet stack at sea zone 36), shall UK Pacific defend Malaya (with the 4 infantry and potentially UK/ANZAC fighters)?  I struggle between moving those force back to help later Calcutta defense or to diverse Japanese air force from attacking Yunnan/Szechwan stack.



  • @hcp:

    @WILD:

    If there is a J1 attack w/Sea Lion build-up besides flying over the US bomber you could also bulk up allied ships/ftrs at Iceland on turn 1. Then on US2 a US ftr is also on London to defend. If the Germans attack the Iceland fleet (would have had to purchase a carrier G1 or some subs) they will lose some key units or expose their fleet to counter attack. Either way they wouldn’t be able to over power a well defended London (plus you may have saved parts of the UK navy).

    Thank you.  I used to ignore Iceland’s role in defending London in case of J1 attack.

    In case of J1/J2 attack (usually the Japanese fleet stack at sea zone 36), shall UK Pacific defend Malaya (with the 4 infantry and potentially UK/ANZAC fighters)?  I struggle between moving those force back to help later Calcutta defense or to diverse Japanese air force from attacking Yunnan/Szechwan stack.

    I don’t think I would build up to def Malaya or Shan on UK1 w/air because the Japanese generally have a bunch of air power/carriers down there on J2 and you wouldn’t do much damage. When I’m playing Japan I generally would be targeting Malaya the turn after I take Phil to stop the Anz NO, so if I could also kill off the bulk of the UK/Anz ftrs at the same time to me that would be a bonus lol. Besides the Anz need those planes to help def the US fleet. Now if the Japanese are out of position, and it would be a close battle I might consider it.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    @Cow:

    I don’t really get why I see all 18 inf and 2 aa retreat from siberia in almost every game. I at least keep 12 to make Japan honest from taking my income right away.

    12 inf 2 aa gun siberia is all you need to stop stupid japan stuff, you can go one spot further east to be really annoying and put japan units far away from where they ideally want to be.

    If I see 12inf 2AA in Buryatia, I go Crussia, attacking Amur J2 normally. This force cannot withstand the 10 inf+1art + landing forces, perhaps assisted by Jehol units.

    Note: I’ve been normally doing a G1 DOW playing Balanced Mod where Crussia is really useful.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    I think the heart of the issue is that as Britain, you need to be willing to compromise. If Germany spends 30 ipcs on fleet on G1, and you want to do Taranto, then you have to build a minimum of 6 ing, 1 ftr for defense in London. If Germany follows up with another Sea Lion build on G2, then you build at least another 6 inf, 1 ftr on uk2. At that point, Germany has no good options. There is so much defense in London that Germany’s odds for Sea Lion are terrible, but Germany has spent so much on fleet that Germany’s odds against Russia are also terrible. Yes, Italy will be doing ok, but with the taranto raid, Italy is not going to get huge enough fast enough to cover for Germany’s terrible position. So when Germany goes all out sea lion, then as the uk, you accept a slightly stronger italy to create a much weaker germany.

    True, without the Persian factory, Japan can march into India by turn 4 or 5. That by itself isn’t enough to win the game for the Axis, though. With enough defense in London to hold London, and a relatively weak Germany, the US can afford to spend 80%+ of its income on building up a monster Pacific fleet that can link up with the Australian forces, first in the Solomon’s, and then later in New Guinea and Java/Borneo. Japan can take India, but with heavy US investment in the Pacific, they won’t take Sydney or Honolulu, so they won’t win.

    If you see the Japanese attack on India coming, you can retreat to West India or Persia…and by turn 4, you should have the breathing room to build that Persia factory after all, so you may be able to hold the line at Persia. Russia can send down a couple of mechs from Stalingrad to help plug the hole, and your UK fighters can start heading southeast to Persia as soon as the sea lion threat is contained.



  • @Argothair:

    I think the heart of the issue is that as Britain, you need to be willing to compromise. If Germany spends 30 ipcs on fleet on G1, and you want to do Taranto, then you have to build a minimum of 6 ing, 1 ftr for defense in London. If Germany follows up with another Sea Lion build on G2, then you build at least another 6 inf, 1 ftr on uk2. At that point, Germany has no good options. There is so much defense in London that Germany’s odds for Sea Lion are terrible, but Germany has spent so much on fleet that Germany’s odds against Russia are also terrible. Yes, Italy will be doing ok, but with the taranto raid, Italy is not going to get huge enough fast enough to cover for Germany’s terrible position. So when Germany goes all out sea lion, then as the uk, you accept a slightly stronger italy to create a much weaker germany.

    True, without the Persian factory, Japan can march into India by turn 4 or 5. That by itself isn’t enough to win the game for the Axis, though. With enough defense in London to hold London, and a relatively weak Germany, the US can afford to spend 80%+ of its income on building up a monster Pacific fleet that can link up with the Australian forces, first in the Solomon’s, and then later in New Guinea and Java/Borneo. Japan can take India, but with heavy US investment in the Pacific, they won’t take Sydney or Honolulu, so they won’t win.

    If you see the Japanese attack on India coming, you can retreat to West India or Persia…and by turn 4, you should have the breathing room to build that Persia factory after all, so you may be able to hold the line at Persia. Russia can send down a couple of mechs from Stalingrad to help plug the hole, and your UK fighters can start heading southeast to Persia as soon as the sea lion threat is contained.

    Thank you!  I see UK-Europe’s comprise issue now - as you said, with Taranto raid, in sealion’s case I am willing to accept a stronger Italy for a weaker Germany.

    With scarce resource, I think UK-Pacific do not have many options.  I get used to build infantry until being SBR to zero production.  My only counterattack is perhaps on Shan state before Yunnan falls.  I sometimes read threats saying that India should be more aggressive.  Might I ask under what conditions we can consider the following options?

    1. enter Yunnan to help Chinese defense?
    2. move the seazone 39 transport to get DEI money, instead of activate Persia?
    3. as Argothair mentioned, retreat to West India rather than staying in Calcutta?


  • @hcp:

    @Argothair:

    I think the heart of the issue is that as Britain, you need to be willing to compromise. If Germany spends 30 ipcs on fleet on G1, and you want to do Taranto, then you have to build a minimum of 6 ing, 1 ftr for defense in London. If Germany follows up with another Sea Lion build on G2, then you build at least another 6 inf, 1 ftr on uk2. At that point, Germany has no good options. There is so much defense in London that Germany’s odds for Sea Lion are terrible, but Germany has spent so much on fleet that Germany’s odds against Russia are also terrible. Yes, Italy will be doing ok, but with the taranto raid, Italy is not going to get huge enough fast enough to cover for Germany’s terrible position. So when Germany goes all out sea lion, then as the uk, you accept a slightly stronger italy to create a much weaker germany.

    True, without the Persian factory, Japan can march into India by turn 4 or 5. That by itself isn’t enough to win the game for the Axis, though. With enough defense in London to hold London, and a relatively weak Germany, the US can afford to spend 80%+ of its income on building up a monster Pacific fleet that can link up with the Australian forces, first in the Solomon’s, and then later in New Guinea and Java/Borneo. Japan can take India, but with heavy US investment in the Pacific, they won’t take Sydney or Honolulu, so they won’t win.

    If you see the Japanese attack on India coming, you can retreat to West India or Persia…and by turn 4, you should have the breathing room to build that Persia factory after all, so you may be able to hold the line at Persia. Russia can send down a couple of mechs from Stalingrad to help plug the hole, and your UK fighters can start heading southeast to Persia as soon as the sea lion threat is contained.

    Thank you!  I see UK-Europe’s comprise issue now - as you said, with Taranto raid, in sealion’s case I am willing to accept a stronger Italy for a weaker Germany.

    With scarce resource, I think UK-Pacific do not have many options.  I get used to build infantry until being SBR to zero production.  My only counterattack is perhaps on Shan state before Yunnan falls.  I sometimes read threats saying that India should be more aggressive.  Might I ask under what conditions we can consider the following options?

    1. enter Yunnan to help Chinese defense?
    2. move the seazone 39 transport to get DEI money, instead of activate Persia?
    3. as Argothair mentioned, retreat to West India rather than staying in Calcutta?

    Build a mix of int/art  or inf/mech so you got some attacking power or range. Standing next to 7 inf is no big deal, standing next to 4 inf 3 art is a lot riskier for japan. slowing them down 1 round makes a big deal.

    1 🙂 whenever it is suitable to do so. Basicaly unless J1, pose to be able to move in there. In case of a J1 consider if you can pose to get there. Since you can walk back to india in 1 round and into yunnan in 1 round japan at least has to do something to that stack.
    2 🙂 just do it, if no J1 certain. With a J1 might still be worth it japan has to get it and might lose valuable land forces south ( or even air if your lucky ).
          Taking persia helps clear the med and the middle east but you clear that anyway. Taking the DEI slows japan down 1 round or more.
    3 🙂 consider your losses, and the losses for japan. Sometimes staying and pulling more forces away is preferable to retreating and giving it to japan for free.



  • @ShadowHAwk:

    1 🙂 whenever it is suitable to do so. Basicaly unless J1, pose to be able to move in there. In case of a J1 consider if you can pose to get there. Since you can walk back to india in 1 round and into yunnan in 1 round japan at least has to do something to that stack.
    2 🙂 just do it, if no J1 certain. With a J1 might still be worth it japan has to get it and might lose valuable land forces south ( or even air if your lucky ).
          Taking persia helps clear the med and the middle east but you clear that anyway. Taking the DEI slows japan down 1 round or more.
    3 🙂 consider your losses, and the losses for japan. Sometimes staying and pulling more forces away is preferable to retreating and giving it to japan for free.

    Thank you!  Might I ask three additional rules question that I encountered before - sorry that I lump quite a lot of questions in this thread:
    (1) if UK2 takes Persia, in G3 London falls to Sealion.  Then can Russian turn Persia into a Russian territory in R4, and use the facilities there?  What happen if London is liberated in US5?
    (2) Once Russia is in war with Japan, can I land Russian plants in India to help defense?
    (3) What are the drawbacks of Russia declaring wars on Japan?  Does this affect the 6 Mongolia infantry Russia can get from Japanese attack? 
    (4) If Russian attacks Japan through Tsinghai and Siking first, can Russia still get the 6 Mongolia infantry in case Japanese attacks from Mongolia-adjunct territories?


  • 2018 2017

    1)  Once their capitol is dead, you are no longer “liberating” for your ally you are taking for yourself.  This is the only time your partners can pull income from territories that once belonged to another friendly nation.  Once London is liberated, all of its original territories not held by the enemy revert back to the home team and this possibility ends.

    “If the original controller’s (the power whose territory you just
    liberated) capital is in enemy hands at the end of the turn in which
    you would otherwise have liberated the territory, you capture
    the territory instead. You adjust your national production level,
    and you can use any industrial complex, air base, and/or naval
    base there until the original controller’s capital is liberated.”

    2)  Yes.  There are no penalties for declaring war USSR–>Japan, so it is purely a political move.  As soon as you have activated war, you can fly in on that side of the board and should feel free to do so.  However, Germany must be at war with you in order for you to enter NW Persia, as that territory is on the Europe board and you are not allowed to freely declare against Germany.

    “As a result, if the Soviet Union is at war with Axis powers on only one map, it is still under the restrictions of being
    a neutral power”“In other words, a state of war with
    Japan lifts those restrictions from the Soviet Union on the Pacific map only,”

    1. None.  It is only the attacking an enemy held territory that activates the troops or deactivates them.  The declaration of war itself only serves to greenlight your entry into china or the UK areas on the side of the board to the right of the board break.

    2. As soon as Russia declares, it can start tooling around in China in the noncombat.  The only thing that it can’t do if it still wants the 6 guys is attack a Japanese controlled (control marker or original terr. still owned) that is adjacent to any Mongolian square.    Moving into Chahar doesn’t lose the troops, but attacking a Japan-controlled Chahar does.  If China owns Jehol, Russians noncomming int there do not implicate the Mongolians.  It is only when Russia attacks a “japan controlled Mongolia adjacent” square, or Japan attacks a “Russia controlled Mongolia adjacent” square that the troops are either lost to Russia or given to them, respectively.

    "Also, if Japan attacks any Soviet-controlled territory that is adjacent to any Mongolian territory, all Mongolian territories that are still strict neutral or pro-Allies, or have joined the Allies as a result of a failed Japanese attack, are placed under the control of the Soviet Union
    at the end of Japan’s Conduct Combat phase. "  "If the Soviet Union attacks Korea or any Japan-controlled territory bordering these Mongolian territories while Mongolia is still a strict neutral, Mongolia will remain neutral and not ally itself with the Soviet Union.

    It took a long time and a lot of explanation before I fully understood all these nuances, probably still don’t have them exactly right.

    hth


  • 2018 2017

    1b) and so yes, you do get to use + repair their former factory, until their capitol is liberated.



  • @taamvan:

    1)  Once their capitol is dead, you are no longer “liberating” for your ally you are taking for yourself.  This is the only time your partners can pull income from territories that once belonged to another friendly nation.  Once London is liberated, all of its original territories not held by the enemy revert back to the home team and this possibility ends.

    “If the original controller’s (the power whose territory you just
    liberated) capital is in enemy hands at the end of the turn in which
    you would otherwise have liberated the territory, you capture
    the territory instead. You adjust your national production level,
    and you can use any industrial complex, air base, and/or naval
    base there until the original controller’s capital is liberated.”

    2)  Yes.  There are no penalties for declaring war USSR–>Japan, so it is purely a political move.  As soon as you have activated war, you can fly in on that side of the board and should feel free to do so.  However, Germany must be at war with you in order for you to enter NW Persia, as that territory is on the Europe board and you are not allowed to freely declare against Germany.

    “As a result, if the Soviet Union is at war with Axis powers on only one map, it is still under the restrictions of being
    a neutral power”“In other words, a state of war with
    Japan lifts those restrictions from the Soviet Union on the Pacific map only,”

    1. None.  It is only the attacking an enemy held territory that activates the troops or deactivates them.  The declaration of war itself only serves to greenlight your entry into china or the UK areas on the side of the board to the right of the board break.

    2. As soon as Russia declares, it can start tooling around in China in the noncombat.  The only thing that it can’t do if it still wants the 6 guys is attack a Japanese controlled (control marker or original terr. still owned) that is adjacent to any Mongolian square.    Moving into Chahar doesn’t lose the troops, but attacking a Japan-controlled Chahar does.  If China owns Jehol, Russians noncomming int there do not implicate the Mongolians.  It is only when Russia attacks a “japan controlled Mongolia adjacent” square, or Japan attacks a “Russia controlled Mongolia adjacent” square that the troops are either lost to Russia or given to them, respectively.

    "Also, if Japan attacks any Soviet-controlled territory that is adjacent to any Mongolian territory, all Mongolian territories that are still strict neutral or pro-Allies, or have joined the Allies as a result of a failed Japanese attack, are placed under the control of the Soviet Union
    at the end of Japan’s Conduct Combat phase. "  "If the Soviet Union attacks Korea or any Japan-controlled territory bordering these Mongolian territories while Mongolia is still a strict neutral, Mongolia will remain neutral and not ally itself with the Soviet Union.

    It took a long time and a lot of explanation before I fully understood all these nuances, probably still don’t have them exactly right.

    hth

    Thank you for your detailed explanation!  Some follow-up questions:

    1. Can I say that, after the first control marker is placed in a neutral territory (e.g. Persia, Finland) - then throughout the whole game such territory becomes a new “original territory” for the power who places the control marker on it the first time?

    1b) For example, consider the story: UK2 gets Persia => G3 success Sealion => R3 gets Persia => R4 builds Persian factory => R5 produces three tanks => US5 liberate London

    Then at the moment when London is liberated (US5), is that all things in Persia revert to UK-Europe control?  A UK control marker is placed on Persia at that moment?

    1. When Russia is at war with Japan but not Germany, can Russia fly a plane first from Moscow to Szechwan/Yunnan, then from Szechwan/Yunnan to India?  Does UK-Pacific’s relationship with Japan affect whether Russia can fly the plane to India?

  • 2019 2017 2016

    Isn’t hcp talking about a situation where UK activates Persia UK2? If the UK does that, the USSR can’t liberate it even if London falls. So the answer to (1) is no.

    taamvan is referring to a situation where an axis power takes an originally UK territory, let’s say Egypt. If that happens and there is a sea lion in effect, any one of the allies can take Egypt for itself. It does not liberate Egypt. For a territory like Persia with neutral original ownership, this rule doesn’t have any effect. It is owned by however last conquered or liberated it. If the USSR did indeed take Egypt and build a factory on it, the USSR could use said factory but once London was liberated the ownership of Egypt immediately reverts to UK Europe. Just not for Persia.



  • @hcp:

    Thank you for your detailed explanation!� Some follow-up questions:

    1. Can I say that, after the first control marker is placed in a neutral territory (e.g. Persia, Finland) - then throughout the whole game such territory becomes a new “original territory” for the power who places the control marker on it the first time?

    1b) For example, consider the story: UK1 gets Persia => G3 success Sealion => R3 gets Persia => R4 builds Persian factory => R5 produces three tanks => US5 liberate London

    Then at the moment when London is liberated (US5), is that all things in Persia revert to UK-Europe control?� A UK control marker is placed on Persia at that moment?

    1. When Russia is at war with Japan but not Germany, can Russia fly a plane first from Moscow to Szechwan/Yunnan, then from Szechwan/Yunnan to India?� Does UK-Pacific’s relationship with Japan affect whether Russia can fly the plane to India?
    1. First off neutral territories are not considered to be original territories of the power that activates or captures them. Neutral territories are never liberated, they can only be captured. If Persia is activated by the UK then the only way Persia could become Russian is if the axis captured it from UK, and Russia took it from the axis. At that point it would be Russian and the liberation of London wouldn’t bring it back to the UK. BTW this is also how the DEI (Dutch East Indies) work. If the UK activates one of the Dutch islands and the Japanese capture it, but the US takes it from the Japanese it is now a US territory.

    2. Once the Russians are at war with Japan the Russians have no movement restrictions on the Pac side. So yes you can fly Russian planes through China to get to India even if the UK/Japan are still at peace because the UK is not a neutral power.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    @WILD:

    1. Once the Russians are at war with Japan the Russians have no movement restrictions on the Pac side. So yes you can fly Russian planes through China to get to India even if the UK/Japan are still at peace because the UK is not a neutral power.

    Your first point is correct but this one isn’t.

    @Pac:

    As a result, if the Soviet Union is at war with Axis powers on only one map, it is still under the restrictions of being
    a neutral power (see “Powers Not at War with One Another,” page 15) on the other map



  • @ShadowHAwk:

    @Caesar:

    Problem I had with J1 DOW is that do you ignore jacking loose USSR territories or do you just focus on China, Dutch, and UK territories? The problem I had with J1 is that if you do not take 10 dollars on the first turn, what was the point of it instead of riding US trade?

    You should take 10 ipcs turn 1, but your taking them from the allies ( except france ). You take 7 from UK-Pac and 2 from US. thats a 18 ipc swing right there.

    Wouldn’t it be a -12 swing since the U.S. will get +30 for entering the war?  Or +25 or whatever, since Japan probably takes the Philippines


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