• Can aircraft with no remaining movement points retreat from combat?

    Scenario:

    USA had 3 CV in SZ6 containing 6 FTR. Japan moved 3 TAC and 3 FTR along with 3 SUB and a DD into attack. The 6 aircraft moved 4 spaces to enter the sea zone, which ended up being legal because the player was purchasing 3 CV. He fly in and attacks and each of the CV was damaged by subs which can’t hit aircraft, and he called a retreat. He left the aircraft in the SZ and submerged the subs. At the end of the turn he landed the 5 surviving aircraft on the carriers and I had to remove my surviving aircraft because the carriers were damaged. (Almost all aircraft on both sides missed, the only real hits were from the subs)

    If an aircraft with no movement remaining retreats can they remain in the zone??


  • Addendum - I obviously thought my fleet was safe since no aircraft seemed in range…did not anticipate losing the entire thing while inflicting almost no casualties except a DD and a FTR.

  • 2021 2020 '18 '17

    If the attacker destroys or disables all your landing spaces on carriers, then withdraws, you can move the planes one space to find a landing spot.  If you cannot find a valid landing space, they all die.

    Don’t forget also that kamikaze can be used (where otherwise permitted) to disable one or more carriers, which then causes all the carried planes to crash (if no other spot is available).

    For this reason, it is advisable to bring EXTRA carriers with free spaces in during a SZ 6 invasion, so your fighters are not as vulnerable to this Axis trick.

    Don’t forget that because of “order of casualty” considerations, a battle that was otherwise in your favor (more hits, more attack/defense power) could turn against you because certain units (subs, fighters without DD) can only hit sea/vs/air can simply disable your carriers first and crash all your planes–-he doesn’t have to defeat you in detail during combat.  (This is another reason why the DD is such a powerful unit and needs to be with every fleet)

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16

    Hi Shadowguidex

    The short answer to your headline question is that aircraft with no movement left cannot retreat from a combat sea zone. If their carriers are not in the sz at the end of the non-com move then those aircraft are lost.

    However I believe your question is more complex - whether retreating aircraft can land on new carriers just built in the same sz from which they are retreating. That is an interesting question. My answer is that they can, because you can build straight into a hostile sz. In Phase 5: Mobilise New Units / Restrictions on Placement it says that you can place aircraft on a carrier you own in a hostile sz.

    I will be interested to see whether others disagree. 😮

    PS taamvan posted while I was typing, but I think he is talking about defending fighters, but you are asking about attacking ones?

    PPS And then P@nther while I was adding the above PS! The speed of these guys …… 😄

  • Moderator Official Q&A 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 '12 TripleA

    @shadowguidex:

    Can aircraft with no remaining movement points retreat from combat?

    Scenario:

    USA had 3 CV in SZ6 containing 6 FTR. Japan moved 3 TAC and 3 FTR along with 3 SUB and a DD into attack. The 6 aircraft moved 4 spaces to enter the sea zone, which ended up being legal because the player was purchasing 3 CV. He fly in and attacks and each of the CV was damaged by subs which can’t hit aircraft, and he called a retreat. He left the aircraft in the SZ and submerged the subs. At the end of the turn he landed the 5 surviving aircraft on the carriers and I had to remove my surviving aircraft because the carriers were damaged. (Almost all aircraft on both sides missed, the only real hits were from the subs)

    If an aircraft with no movement remaining retreats can they remain in the zone??

    I understood the scenario seeing Japan as attacker here.

    In this case the answer is:

    Yes, they can. See from the retreat rules:

    @rulebook:

    Retreating air units remain
    in the contested space
    temporarily. They complete
    their retreat movement during
    the Noncombat Move phase
    using the same rules as an air
    unit involved in a successful
    battle.

    And for the Noncombat Move:

    @same:

    Air Units: An air unit must end its move in an eligible landing
    space. Air units can land in any territory that was friendly (but
    not friendly neutral) at the start of the current turn.
    Only fighters and tactical bombers can land in a sea zone
    with a friendly carrier present. A landing spot must be
    available on the carrier. Additionally:

    • A fighter or tactical bomber can land in a sea zone (even a
      hostile one) that is adjacent to an industrial complex you own
      if you will be mobilizing an aircraft carrier that you previously
      purchased in that zone during the Mobilize New Units phase.

    HTH 🙂


  • Alright thanks…so it was all legal…those combined maneuvers (landing on CV being built and retreating/submerging after damaging my carriers), totally out of the blue, was genius…that combined with a marvelous attack he made on my UK fleet in the Med has likely done me in…

  • 2021 2020 '18 '17

    that’s when knowing all the rules can be a big advantage, its not all that realistic that you can land on a newly fitted out carrier in a hostile zone, but its a devastating combo

    so is the “shuttle bombing” concept where the planes from one carrier attack (and land elsewhere) and you use the same carrier to enable/facilitate 2 more planes to attack, thus doubling the carrier’s utility.

    Great answer, Panther.


  • Yes I’km aware of the kamikaze rules and those didn’t com into play here…they in fact could not be applied since none of the requisite islands had been captured/recaptured (I avoided Iwo Jima the previous turn for this reason).

    So it looks like the previous two responders are in disagreement, but by my reading of the rules, it appears the move was legal - does anyone see language anywhere which specifically states that an aircraft with no remaining movement cannot retreat?


  • @taamvan:

    that’s when knowing all the rules can be a big advantage, its not all that realistic that you can land on a newly fitted out carrier in a hostile zone, but its a devastating combo

    Yeah I’ve been playing this game for a long long time and I know the rules by heart, and have in fact played every edition of Axis and Allies since the original MB (which I still own two of). I have just never had this specific combination of events all happen simultaneously in one attack…all have happened individually many times.

    1. Fighters attack at max range.
    2. CV builds in the sea zone for them to land on.
    3. Aircraft retreat.
  • 2021 2020 '18 '17

    Understood, there are many times I mess things up or miss something and get blasted for it.  I too have a battered copy of the 1985 game, a torn in half copy of 1941, an ash and beer stained 42.2, and a custom printed Global board on vinyl!

    I don’t think we are disagreeing that the move was legal;  the buy CV land planes after noncom is legit.

    Panther’s quote of “retreating planes remain in the space temporarily…” is the other piece

  • Moderator Official Q&A 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 '12 TripleA

    @shadowguidex:

    So it looks like the previous two responders are in disagreement, but by my reading of the rules, it appears the move was legal - does anyone see language anywhere which specifically states that an aircraft with no remaining movement cannot retreat?

    No disagreement on the rules, for sure, just a different understanding of the scenario you have posted. Everything that has been said is legit (from the understanding of the scenario).

    Be again assured that the move was legal. 🙂

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16

    @shadowguidex:

    So it looks like the previous two responders are in disagreement …

    Do you mean P@nther and I? I read our posts to say that they are in agreement.


  • Yeah I think we’ve reached a consensus…the move was totally legally, quite brilliant, and devastating to my war effort (which I had been winning).

  • '19 '17 '16

    Did you dent all 3 CVs before sinking any of them? Sounds like a major mistake to me. You also should have lost fighters to non sub hits (if any). I’m guessing Korea wasn’t available as a landing site because it could have been retaken overland. Well worthwhile to take Korea in most situations where you are occupying SZ6 as USA.

  • '18 '17 '16

    That was a brilliant move on the part of the Japanese player. This is what I found was the problem with the rulebook, you have to search the whole thing just to learn how to do or defend against a move like this. People were bugging me about making a 2-1/2 video on naval warfare because it’s too long and nobody would want to watch it. If you include everything to do with naval warfare including the units, facilities, and special rules such as the one that shadowguidex listed in this scenario it literally takes 2-1/2 hours to explain in detail.

    Thanks for sharing this, shadowguidex. Considering how the rolls went in the attack by the Japanese player, a scenario like this happens so seldom that I felt it was worth making a video to share with the community. I hope that I got it right from your description (or some close facsimile).
    https://youtu.be/ZYh4Wt_cmSM


  • @shadowguidex:

    Can aircraft with no remaining movement points retreat from combat?

    Scenario:

    USA had 3 CV in SZ6 containing 6 FTR. Japan moved 3 TAC and 3 FTR along with 3 SUB and a DD into attack. The 6 aircraft moved 4 spaces to enter the sea zone, which ended up being legal because the player was purchasing 3 CV. He fly in and attacks and each of the CV was damaged by subs which can’t hit aircraft, and he called a retreat. He left the aircraft in the SZ and submerged the subs. At the end of the turn he landed the 5 surviving aircraft on the carriers and I had to remove my surviving aircraft because the carriers were damaged. (Almost all aircraft on both sides missed, the only real hits were from the subs)

    If an aircraft with no movement remaining retreats can they remain in the zone??

    aircraft dont really retreat, they just break off contact and then move again in non combat if required.
    In this case they moved to the carriers in the same SZ.
    Why did he bother bringing air and DD to begin with, it would have been cheaper to use only subs,

    @GeneralHandGrenade:

    That was a brilliant move on the part of the Japanese player. This is what I found was the problem with the rulebook, you have to search the whole thing just to learn how to do or defend against a move like this. People were bugging me about making a 2-1/2 video on naval warfare because it’s too long and nobody would want to watch it. If you include everything to do with naval warfare including the units, facilities, and special rules such as the one that shadowguidex listed in this scenario it literally takes 2-1/2 hours to explain in detail.

    There are verry little special rules in naval combat, and the only 2 that applied was that subs can only hit ships and air cannot hit subs without a destroyer.
    Most special rules are unit abilities and they are clearly stated with the unit profiles. No need to search the rulebook just look at the back.

  • '18 '17 '16

    There is also placing ships in hostile sea zones and moving aircraft to sea zones in anticipation of placing carriers in that sea zone, both of which are located elsewhere in the rulebook. There is also the defender choosing his casualties before the rest of the first round of combat continued. He could have chosen to take 2 hits on one of the carriers instead of 1 hit on each carrier, also in a different part of the rulebook. If he did not hit on all 3 subs, he may have wanted to continue the attack with the other units to take the carriers and fighters out. But yeah, other than those things all of it is in the back in the unit profiles.


  • @GeneralHandGrenade:

    There is also placing ships in hostile sea zones and moving aircraft to sea zones in anticipation of placing carriers in that sea zone, both of which are located elsewhere in the rulebook. There is also the defender choosing his casualties before the rest of the first round of combat continued. He could have chosen to take 2 hits on one of the carriers instead of 1 hit on each carrier, also in a different part of the rulebook. If he did not hit on all 3 subs, he may have wanted to continue the attack with the other units to take the carriers and fighters out. But yeah, other than those things all of it is in the back in the unit profiles.

    None are special rules at all.
    1st is moving aircraft must have a legal space to land in. No special rule.
    2nd is the placement rules, still nothing special about those.
    3th is the special surpise strike rule - and inability to hit air from subs, so yes unit profiles.

    So basicaly they are all basic rules for combat and unit placement, just that you combine them does not make them special.

  • '18 '17 '16

    I have to disagree with you. You’re thinking in terms of someone who is an expert in the game and not someone who is still unsure of every rule in the book. I get a lot of questions on YouTube from players who ask me why I made this move or that move and how can that be legal? There are many situations in naval combat which are not the same as land combat and that’s where the confusion comes from. I characterized those as “special” on this thread because they are unique to naval warfare. If you don’t like that word then fine, let’s call them unique.
    At no time could you leave attacking aircraft in a land territory regardless of whether you won that battle or lost it unlike the situation in this thread. It would not be possible to place new land units in a territory that you no longer own, unlike what happened in this thread. There are no Capital Units on the land. You can’t submerge an AAA like you can a submarine.
    The OP of this thread started this because he was unsure, even as an experienced player, if everything that happened in this particular battle was legal. You don’t have to look very far in this section of the forum to find several threads dealing with naval movement, combat, scrambling, and so on that players want to find clarification in the rules from others.
    In order to resolve the situation in this thread you would have to find the rules on pages 19, 20, 23, 31, and 32 of the Europe rulebook. That is the point that I was trying to make, that you can’t just open up the book to a unit profile and resolve this battle. And yes, if you have been paying attention to the threads created here, naval combat is confusing to many players.


  • Im not an expert player but i learned to play the game by reading the rules and stick to them.
    A lot of question players have could be solved by just literaly quoting the rulebook, or wanting to read something that clearly isnt there to start with.
    Things like, you can only do this in situation X, and they go but what about situation Y.

    Its not the rules themself that make this a complex move its the combination of.

    Landing fighters on newly build carriers ( not something special most of us do this a few times each game )
    Building ships in hostile SZ, also not really special. If you look at most games this happens a few times each game as well ( mostly destroyers to block enemy movement )
    Sub surpise strike and submerging ( both happen multiple times every game )

    The move itself is complex using a lot of different rules, but the rules themself well after round 1 you have seen most of them, and after a game you have seen all of them. But thinking about combining them that makes the move smart.

    But this game the rules are pretty clearly written, some rules are supperseded by global rules so those can be confusing ( can japan attack russia or not in global )
    I have seen far worst rulebooks then axis&Allies, actualy for a game with this many rules it ranks among the better writen books for clarity in my opinion.

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16

    I remember how hard I had to work to understand the rules when I got my first A&A game - 1941 - Christmas 2014. During the course of 2015 I started a number of rule and strategy conversations in the forum and very much appreciated all the help and advice I received.

    I am therefore always pleased to help when new players ask questions which I think I can answer. Sometimes even new players ask questions that allow me to learn from the answers they get. When you are new you don’t necessarily know which questions are the clever ones and a fear of asking a stupid question can hold back many an insight.

    Let’s not discourage new players from joining the forum and becoming part of our community. Instead let’s encourage them with the warmth of our responses and willingness to help.

    Cheers
    PP 🙂

  • '19 '17 '16

    I agree that the rules about mobilising into a hostile SZ and landing an existing fighter on a newly mobilised carrier are not exactly intuitive, but the game is richer for them.

    In classic you couldn’t do that and it allowed naval blockades of places like London which was not good for the game because you could only sink a navy with an existing navy or an air force. Never a newly mobilised navy.

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