• My apologies if this topic as been discussed, I cannot for the life of me figure out how to search this forum (the custom google search bar is not too helpful).

    I have been playing plenty of TripleA recently and find that eventually I ignore my Atlantic combined fleet long enough for the Germans to hit it with a huge air strike. Originally I liked the idea of this, for destroyed G planes is great, but then I got to thinking about the IPC swing from a fleet + a LOT of UK and US transports sinking, not to mention the loss of Allied momentum. It just does not seem to pan out to a good trade.

    Currently my naval defense hinges on ACs and fighters, but I find that I am quite low on HP and most of the fleet dies in the first volley. I could add destroyers, but they seem so expensive for what you are getting. Should I consider BBs or Cruisers?

    I like the ACs because they offer a huge amount of land threat, and I can also move planes from the ACs to France or NE in the event of a huge Germany stack. The impression I have gotten from some of the topics here is that air is very powerful in this edition (because of the nerfing of tanks?)

    Removed a silly question

  • '17 '16

    I don’t understand how you get an issue with surviving planes in Triple A.
    Usually, on defense, you get the opportunity to land surviving planes 1 movement from actual SZ, hence England.
    However, if a Japanese bomber is within range of an only TPs SZ, you must say goodbye to them…

    The best all-around naval fodder is Destroyer.

    Combining DD defense @2 and 1 hit for each 8 IPCs is the best.
    However, you may built planes in TT, then latter built Carriers when you have enough to fully load them.
    Built 2 US Fighters (and 1 Carrier in East Coast SZ), and fly them on a just built UK Carrier.
    That way, each round you may buy a 14 IPCs UK and fully load with 20 IPCs US Fgs.

    You don’t have to built 1 DD at a time.
    You may keep 16 IPCs 1 turn, then next built 2 DDs+ 1 Carrier which receive 2 US Fgs.
    So, in a single round, UK’s SZ have 5 hits, for 50 IPCs. (30 from UK, 20 from US). A11 D14
    Or, you may hold 22 IPCs (Carrier+ 1 DD) an additional round.
    It would provides 2 Carriers, 4 US Fgs, 3 DDs = 9 hits, 92 IPCs A11 D14+A9 D12= A20 D26

    With 11 DDs only, 88 IPCs gives A22 D22 and it is slightly weaker than above fleet, but 4 IPCs cheaper.

    Germany will not be able to overcome such fleet without loosing almost or all planes.


  • Ahh, I like that. I had not considered combining UK carriers and US fighters as a consistent strategy.

    Would you suggest against the US1 eastern carrier buy? I have seen that in a lot of Round 1 strategies for US.

    As for the Triple A question, I for some reason was thinking they stayed in the air. ill edit that out. Thanks!

  • '17 '16

    No, it should be bought, that way all Fg on East Coast SZ take only 4 moves to reach Uk.

  • 2021 '20 '18 '17

    Yes, but what is the point of sending them that way, or doing it that way?

    UK has to build the carrier UK1, to receive the fighters, and I don’t see it surviving Germany 2 even with the US help and/or

    Then, US carrier built US 1, but no fighters can shuttle then, only get ready
    Then, US carrier wants to move US 1, but its still pretty weak to cross with just US 1 buy and planes can only be in one place at a time
    Then, US planes can deploy on carrier and move to UK, on US 2, but they still are 1+ turns from making any difference in Russia
    US 3 first turn that new planes could cross or attack targets in Atlantic theatre…

    KGF is not very useful in this version when you lose your transports on the first turn for nearly certain (even with the bid).  Any spend on transports by US or UK means that fleet offense/defense is inadequate.

  • '17 '16

    With a carrier in East Coast bought US1 with 2 planes, you can buy 2 US Fgs each round and launch them either in UK (4 moves) or Iceland (4 moves) but closer to Russia (4 moves away from Iceland). So, your 2 US1 Fgs reach Moscow US3. And you still have 2 US Fgs in Iceland, and 2 US Fgs on your US Carrier near East Coast.

  • 2021 '20 '18 '17

    Thanks for pointing this out, this is why Germany takes ICELAND, so it cant be used to shuttle planes direct to Moscow, unblockably.

    Still, I have plenty of problems with KGF/Atlantic Crossing in force because while we may be able to sneak 7-8 planes into Moscow via Iceland by the end of turn 3, this only saves Moscow, it doesn’t do anything to actually win the game proactively.  And, if we are trying to insert these fighters into Russian Theatre, they can no longer cover any fleet or any landing.

    Wondering if that is the take-awy point, that putting ships in the atlantic water with UK USA is not a complete strategy because its all or nothing; with 2-3 Germany strat bombers and 5-6 fighters, all but the strongest allied standoff fleets can be destroyed.

  • 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    One thing you need to consider for advanced Atlantic fleet design is skew. A destroyer is quite expensive on its own ($4 per pip of defensive punch is too high compared to $2.50 per pip on a dighter), but the destroyer is useful for absorbing a hit, and enabling your fighters to survive longer into the battle so they can continue to roll dice that hit on 4 or less. Spending $24 on destroyers can help you not only roll three dice @ 2 for the first round of combat, but they can also keep your $34 loaded aircraft carrier alive for a second round of combat so that it can roll two dice @ 4 and 1 die @ 2. Buying a mix of destroyers and fighters helps all of them perform more efficiently.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that beyond a certain point, German air force is inefficient. E.g. you really don’t need 8 bombers for trading territories in Eastern Europe, and 8 bombers are much less threatening to Moscow than 16 tanks, even though they’re the same price. If Germany builds a huge air force anyway, then as the western allies you will need to either invest in additional naval defense or simply abandon your fleet and rely on flying in fighters and/or marching troops across north africa. Both of these tactics are inefficient, but the inefficiency is often matched by Germany’s inefficiently large air purchases. The trick is to be less inefficient than your opponent!


  • @Argothair:

    Another thing to keep in mind is that beyond a certain point, German air force is inefficient. E.g. you really don’t need 8 bombers for trading territories in Eastern Europe, and 8 bombers are much less threatening to Moscow than 16 tanks, even though they’re the same price.

    Not if Germany switches its 8 bombers to strat bomb Moscow or Caucasus. The AA will get some of the bombers but the damage can be sufficient to prevent the Russians from building any units at all for a couple of turns to help defend those territories from a Japanese/German ground attack.

  • 2021 '20 '18 '17

    DD are the cannon fodder, right!

    But it doesn’t matter.  Germany only needs 3 bombers, not 8 to both threat SL, ward the KGF off, SB the Russians or simply attack them turn after turn until they eventually die.

    Even after the Axis get punched out by relentless attacks on turns 1-3, it is almost impossible to put any kind of real threat against them and so even when the luck isn’t in their favor, they can still mop up all the available Asian income, gain threshold (50/40) and win.

  • 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    A maximally successful bombing raid against Moscow and Stalingrad will inflict 24 damage. Let’s say Russia was only earning $24. You spend $12 to mostly repair Moscow, and buy 4 infantry. So you are only able to buy 4 inf that turn instead of your usual 8 inf. Meanwhile, with 8 bombers raids, you are expected to shoot down 1.33 bombers, worth $16 to Germany. So the best case scenario for Germany is that they are trading $16 of German bombers for $12 of Russian infantry.

    As Germany, I would much rather have 16 extra tanks than the ability to repeatedly make that trade. The only reason bombers are a sensible purchase for Germany is that they can push back the Allied fleets and bomb Russian factories…but the same German bomber usually can’t hit Moscow One turn and hit the English channel on the next turn, especially if France is at risk of capture. So the bombers take a lot of skill to use…you have to plan out where to land them, buy enough that you can sink an Allied fleet even if you take casualties during a bombing raid, not buy so many that you are routinely rolling more than max damage and wasting the excess…it’s all non-trivial. They can work well, but they can also fail, and they can be defeated. A mix of Brit and Yankee DDs, CVs, and ftrs can eventually make it to France – or else force Germany to build so many planes that it runs out of tanks.

    Taamvan, I don’t know how to help you feel less bitter about the Russian chances against Germany. You and I have analyzed several games in detail, and Black Elk has suggested specific openings for you, but your attitude is still pretty much the same. I’d suggest that you either play a different game, play with some of the many house rule variants on the forums, or just play with an enormous allied bid, like $30 or $35.


  • I see that destroyers from a defensive standpoint are a great way to soak wounds, balancing out your pip/hp ratio. The trouble is that DDs are completely useless outside of maintaining naval superiority. Since Allies really need to squeeze the life out of every IPC spent, it almost makes more sense to go risky with AC and fighters, since the fighters become very useful for eventual attacks on Germany. With that concept, we would need to reconfigure the Atlantic defense proportional to the German airforce to bring the odds of winning a defensive engagement lower, by maximizing fighters and AC. The question is, at what point are you being too risky? Is a 70% chance of success good enough, seems like a lot to gamble on all of your transports and basically your only shot at the western front.

  • '17 '16

    @taamvan:

    DD are the cannon fodder, right!

    But it doesn’t matter.  Germany only needs 3 bombers, not 8 to both threat SL, ward the KGF off, SB the Russians or simply attack them turn after turn until they eventually die.

    Even after the Axis get punched out by relentless attacks on turns 1-3, it is almost impossible to put any kind of real threat against them and so even when the luck isn’t in their favor, they can still mop up all the available Asian income, gain threshold (50/40) and win.

    1942.2 bombers are sub-optimal in SBR. They are not G40 bombers bombing D6+2 and maxing out an IC is much easier in 1942.2, loosing a few dmg points in the process. In addition, USSR economy is so low that you don’t need to repair Caucasus. All this imply that against Russia grounds are way better but bombers keep their values to repel Naval build up.

  • 2021 '20 '18 '17

    You may be hearing bitter but itsdefeated (as allies).  You have done a great job of helping me look at the Allies with some new plans and approaches, and there are several ways that they can win.    However, they’ll need 1) the bid 2) some luck 3) very directed and purposeful play in order to even get past turn 4.

    We’ve tried everything in Black Elk’s book, and all the suggestions that you guys laid out in the past posts we discussed.  The take away is that the Allies can indeed win (with a rational bid not a crazy one) but it takes skill luck and optimal play.

    I do play many games, I don’t necessarily think that this one is so wildly imbalanced that it isn’t fun.  I play it 2-3 times a week.  I’m playing it in tournaments, so crazy bids, house rules, different versions are all out.

    I’ve come around the bend again in March thinking that there was some hope that the Allies could prevail, but before I wrote that last post I got shredded again  😞

    All im expressing is that any competent Axis player can destroy Moscow with focus, and while there is a possibility of the Allies stopping this, Russia is stripped.  We’ve tried every bid and opener to stop this from happening, and it remains possible that Moscow could survive to turn 5 and beyond, its not happened since we began playing this version (though sometimes that’s because the axis gets punched out and gives up before turn 4, that might be one game in four that axis falls apart)

    And I also agree that strat bombing isn’t viable as a full game strategy here, partly because of the factors you mention but also because the maximum damage that you can do is limited (eg 16 against Japan when they have 40+$)

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    It seems to me that from reading this and other topics like it, that spending most of the income of Britain in an attempt to hold off Germany with fighter support isn’t really a viable strategy.  It doesn’t really do anything to pose a viable threat to Germany.  All of the effort seems to be spent on finding a way to stop Germany.  I’m pretty sure this has been beaten to death already however, when I first got this game and looked at how difficult it is for America to get to Europe, my first thought was that this must be a KJF map.  Germany is set up to wipe out the Atlantic fleet and most of what I read seems to indicate that people think this is unfair; perhaps this is intended to get people to start thinking and playing the game differently.

    If America were to concentrate on Japan as they did in the real war, it would give Japan something to do other than march unopposed across Russia.  The decrease in territory values, addition of British IC and longer route to Moscow indicates to me that the designers might have had something else in mind.

    If something isn’t working, try something else.  I think I will try a few things against TripleA until I am convinced that I am just crazy.

    There has to be more ways to play than the British buy 2 fig, 2 inf, 1 art every turn while waiting for America to come to the rescue.

    Just the inane ramblings of someone that’s never won a game and doesn’t play. 😮

    CrayzKirk


  • What about a turn 3 British Navy. This is to support a US France shuck, which cannot move out until T3 (T1 build transports, T2, move to SZ outside of eastern Canada, T3 shuck). US will need to make up the bulk of destroyers for the Atlantic fleet since UK will hardly have enough after 2 turns of saving for a big navy. For turns 1 and 2, UK could save IPCs and just drop 2 inf 1 arty in India, limiting it’s offensive capabilities, but should still have the Egypt fighter, and the Indian ocean fighter.

    On turn 3, UK should have 70 or slightly fewer IPCs (due to lost territory). UK then drops 2 carriers, 2 transports, 4 inf, and 3 arty (66 IPCS), dividing the land units between India and UK as necessary. On US 3, the UK carriers get filled by both the Eastern US fighters (based on the carrier in the adjacent SZ) and from fighters based in the UK. At the same time, the first shuck meets the fleet and begins deploying in NE or France.

    From that point on UK grabs either 1 or 2 transports to maximize the shuck into NE/France depending on the India situation. US will need to continuously feed destroyers into the Atlantic to compensate for Germany air buildup.

    I see two issues with this so far.

    1. Germany will see this coming from a mile away, so the initial amphibious assault will probably fail by the US due to a huge Germany counter, really the UK should be initiating the invasion, but could not do so until UK4.
    2. Moscow will not be receiving any new fighters from the UK (or the US) until T5 or so.
  • 2021 '20 '18 '17

    Yes, argo and Black elk have laid out a more complex fighter shuck than this, you use Iceland (cross unblockably direct to Moscow), or UK carriers, and US fighters on a carrier or on Canada can land in Iceland turn 3 built or existing

    This is awesome, pretty much a requirement at least that you are using it when it is safe and works.  however, Moscow may need the help before turn 3 and certain other LZs are easy to block.

    Acutaly, its pretty easy for Germany to block Iceland too, by attacking it.  This is why you send in 2 Russian fighters to squash that ambition before Germany builds a carrier.

    And part of my objection to the earlier posters here was supposed to be that its is really hard to keep that crossing fleet or british navy alive, before turn 4.  It needs to be building threat much earlier than that, and Germany just isn’t impressed.

    the worst thing Germany can have to do is send its airforce against that ship stack, if it exists, because they can’t lose the planes AND assault Moscow turn after turn.

    one of the best things to do is let the axis “punch out” all their airforce.  Still, as my bitter post laid out, even when they get “punched out” they can still gain threshold, its not a problem because any units that stood in the way of the $1 and $2 squares are dead or protecting Moscow by T3.

  • 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    The Beninator’s strategy makes sense to me – all I would add is that if you plan to build two fighters for your Atlantic fleet, you may as well build them up front. Sometimes you can build on UK1, fly to W. Russia on UK2, guard against a German attack on G3, then fly to the newly built carrier on UK3. Alternatively, the fighters might be of use to hunt down a German sub, seder a German carrier, etc. I try not to leave money in the bank because it doesn’t pay interest!

    Taamvan, are you using Russian fighters to hit the Baltic Fleet every game? That could help explain why your battles in west Russia are going poorly. I am usually happy to let the Germans attack Iceland or build a carrier… any german infantry sent to take iceland will never reach Moscow, and the carrier represents 14 IPCs of German units that can be sunk efficiently with British airpower instead of burdening the overtaxed Russian army. Sometimes an R1 Baltic attack can make sense if you are using your russian bid to try to hold Karelia, but I don’t see it as an “every game” kind of thing. Those two fighters can make or break the eastern front by helping you save on casualties on your R1 attacks.


  • @TheBeninator need destroyers with CV fleets otherwise a single sub can decimate.

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