Stalinist Xenophobia

I’ve seen the same situation arise in every single edition of the game, from Classic to the boards still currently in print.

The OOB rules encourage it in two ways, first by allowing team coordination for everyone in all territories, as if everyone was operating the way the Anglo-Americans did, and second because of the way the capital capture and liberation rules are written.

The first all but forces players into multi-nation stacks in the territories that are most convenient for convergence. Even after a number of map redesigns, the situation remains what it was in Classic. The obvious areas of convergence are still the Eastern Front for the Allies (the push through Karelia/Northern Russia, where you try to prop up Moscow while simultaneously gaining the line on Berlin), and Caucasus for the Axis (with the hammer and anvil on Moscow.)
The center remains a giant magnet for all players, the one place everyone is trying to get to as quickly as possible.

The second means that once the game devolves into the familiar center crush or KGF squeeze, all the liberation weirdness occurs, what IL just referred to as “glitching.”

Some sort of capitulation rule might help with the latter, but it really doesn’t do a whole lot about the former. And I’m not sure how satisfying it would be for the player who is still hanging on by their fingernails, doing the best they can to manage the game according to the situation that the rules encourage, to suddenly be forced into concession.

It is bizarre to think of the situation described in the original post, where the Axis would rather leave Moscow alive and encircled, rather than take it and risk seeing a bunch of soviet starting territories liberated for income/production by the West. This is not unlike a similar situation in the OOB game, where the Allies opt not to liberate Moscow from the Axis, for fear of losing the income/production they’ve gained in the post-capital collapse situation. None of it makes much sense.

Just looking at Marc’s thumbnail map, and explanations above, it’s not hard to find reasons why the game shouldn’t look like this from an historical perspective. From a gameplay perspective I’d argue much the same, since every board has just been a rehash of this same dynamic, we might as well hop in the time machine back to the 80s. If we want something different, I think this requires a pretty ambitious overhaul.

One problem is that the OOB game suggests a very particular kind of abstraction, namely that lend lease to Russia is somehow represented by actual combat units. The Russian economy can’t function without a ton of Western TUV to prop it up. So basically players have to imagine that all those American and British inf/tanks/fighters in Soviet Territories are somehow Russian, even though the turn order and gameplay clearly suggests a separation of forces. It’s equally bizarre when UK looks to the Eastern Front as a way to maintain income parity with Germany, and overcome all their loses to Japan elsewhere across the globe.

I think you do basically three things to fix this…

1. Restrict the territories where team convergence can occur.
2. Use income bonuses where necessary to offset the above change on balance.
3. Provide a new liberation dynamic that isn’t so dependent on who controls a Capital after it falls, for determining who gets to control all the other associated starting territories originally attached to possession of that capital.

The third thing is extremely important, because the OOB liberation rules are a huge factor in shaping the current OOB endgame. They are the reason why Allies can sacrifice Moscow to pursue a magnified play vs the Axis (usually KGF), secure in the knowledge that after Moscow goes down, all the other formerly Soviet territories are opened up to the West. As IL noted Japan can basically do the same with Europe under KGF conditions, after Berlin falls, if they are in the ascendance.

I don’t think it’s a problem that can be fixed with a single silver bullet HR. It needs at least a couple HRs working together, or the endgame is still likely to unravel in similarly weird patterns, as players try to game out the loopholes.

I just have a hard time imagining what that would look like. What can we give the Russians that would be enough to keep the West out? I mean even if it was a huge objective bonus like 20-30 ipcs, my concern is that the Russians would just use it for a couple rounds to buy aircraft or spam hitpoints, but then as soon as the West was in a position to send more hitpoints and defense power than the Russians can purchase solo, they’d just give it up in favor of stacking the center with UK/US units like they always do.

I think it would probably end up much the same in every game, as soon as the Axis start really bring the heat, the other two players on the team would start pressuring the Russian player to step in line, and get with program or risk losing the game for everyone.

As you correctly point out, there is no consideration in A&A for the post war balance of power. The Western Allies don’t gain anything by allowing the Russians to bleed it out for a few more years, before making their entry. It’s all zero sum in the end, either Axis win or Allies win, and under those conditions, it would be kind of ridiculous for the Soviet player to refuse assistance.

In G40 and AA50 the Soviet Objective bonus for no western units in their territories was a joke. Nobody is going to play solo as the Soviets for a bonus of 5 or 10 ipcs. The bonus would have to be comparable to what they might otherwise receive from the West. In a typical game of 1942.2 that’s like 20 ipcs a round just from UK fighters alone. To say nothing of the massive tank walls or infantry stacks, that tend to end up in Russia after the 5th round. Usually by the time you enter the midgame, the Allies have spent more than half of their total purchasing power just to prop up the Russians. Easily over 100 ipcs in TUV in most games.

Granted, if the TUV went to Russia directly, then they could do more with it on offense, but you’d still need a really high number per turn to match what the West usually sends over.

I don’t know, even if it succeeded in the main aim of keeping the West out of Russia, it still doesn’t do anything to keep Japan out of Europe which I still see as equally problematic.

This is one instance where I would use an outside rule. And I almost never suggest such things. But I just think it would be more straightforward.

The G40 game already has production restrictions for certain territories based on starting ownership, and movement restrictions based on the political situation.  I’m not a big fan of those rules in isolation, (since I think they hamstring the gameplay, without really producing the desired historical flavor for all the complexity they involve), but at least it wouldn’t be unprecedented if we went with something similar for team coordination restrictions.

OK about to digress on the NAP.
:-D

I’d take it to another thread, but everyone is already here and its kind of related. Trying to put myself back into an AA50 1941-2 mindset, since it was my favorite map and had the simplest concept/wording for the “no western units” objective bonus +5 if Soviets control Archangel and no allied forces in Soviet controlled territories. Might this have worked if the bonus was way higher? In my view +10 would still be way too low, to accomplish the desired aim.  So +15? for like 5 additional inf a round? Maybe, then they would be at least matching the European Axis on the hitpoint spam. I still worry that it would be too low to last beyond the opening couple rounds. +20? for a pair of fighters a round? This is getting a lot closer. Its not quite enough to match what the West could bring on a given turn, once they have their logistics set up, but for the Soviets that income could translate into Red attack power, whereas when it comes from the West it’s locked moreorless on defense, or for more limited can opening. 20 ipcs to Russia for Red units on offense, might even out to be worth what 30-40 ipcs in Western Units allows on defense. It’s likely enough to match the European Axis full press on an even footing, and perhaps the Allies will choose to let Russia go it alone, so long as the European Axis are the only ones coming at them. But eventually Japan arrives (and this eventuality is really just a few rounds out in most games) and then you have to deal not only with more attack power coming at you, but also the turn order advantage. Russia still needs more to manage, so this is where the NAP comes in.

AA50 was still a total war start, like 1942.2 and all of the boards before/since with the exception of the more recent 1940 ones, so any kind of NAP would basically be an outside rule. In G40 you have some more flexibility with the DoW and Mongolia stuff, but usually the NAP is maintained either as a bonus to both sides (Japan/Russia both get something to preserve the NAP), or as penalty to Japan to violate the NAP (Russia gets something, but Japan is penalized). I was thinking just now, what if the NAP was much broader in scope?

What if, instead of giving a bonus to Russia when Japan violates the NAP, you give the bonus to the other Allies?

Sure +10 per round to Russia alone might be all too easy to ignore, but +10 to each of the other Allies? That might actually be enough to persuade the Japanese that invading Russia will be bad for business all around. I haven’t really heard a NAP proposed this way before, so just wanted to float it. Something like…

If Japanese units end their turn in a Soviet starting territory, then the NAP is violated with Japan as the aggressor. The Allies receive the following bonus every turn thereafter, so long as the Russian capital still stands:
+10 ipcs to Britain
+10 ipcs to America

Would this be enough to preserve the NAP on Japan’s end? I think it might. Japan may not be so worried about what the Russians can do, but if it went to the British and Americans as well, that might be a major cause for concern. That’s 20 more TUV that the West could bring against the European Axis, or Japan itself. So here it’s not really the situation with Russia that holds Japan in check, but the other 2 Allies on the team. I’m not sure how exactly you might want to explain or justify the recurring bonus, for me it is just a pure gameplay type disincentive to break the NAP. Maybe like a big morale boost, that the other Allies now have another dog in the fight against their mutual Japanese enemy. I’m sure you could come up with a way to word it that fits with other objectives. I like the Income and Progress Credit idea for IPCs hehe, keep it abstract and flexible.Then on the Russian side of the NAP, you do the same sort of thing…

If Soviet units end their turn in a Japanese starting territory, then the NAP is violated with Russia as the aggressor.
The Axis receive the following bonus every turn thereafter, so long as the Japanese capital still stands:
+10 Germany

Its a rather different approach than what has been tried before. Usually the bonus/penalty to the potential belligerents is focused on Russia/Japan rather than on their teammates.
Thoughts? Maybe something like this could work together with a Xenophobia rule, to actually give Russia enough to go it alone?

Also this sort of NAP might encourage the liberation of Moscow in the endgame, because the West would get their NAP bonus so long as Moscow is under Russian control. They’d have an economic incentive to recover the Capital for the Soviets in Exile hehe. Similarly, the way it’s worded, there would be a disincentive for Japan to prop up the German offensive vs Russia, since ending their turn in a Soviet starting territory  (even one under German control) would be a violation, and result in a bonus to the West.

On the Allied side, a full press KJF, with Russia as the aggressor and violator of the NAP, would give something to G. So in either situation, the aggressor would be setting off a race against the clock. It’s a more all-in approach. Either side can break the NAP, but as soon as they do it flips the hourglass, and they have to go into crunch time mode to take the Capital, before the other members of the opponent’s team rack up an insurmountable income/TUV advantage.

Probably the NAP would still be violated eventually, but this would likely push that out several rounds. It might get you more adventures in the deep endgame, with a better balance and more historical flair.

If you wanted to be really strict, you could extend the NAP to include fly overs of starting territories as a violation. This would put more limits on Japanese aircraft, especially in a game like 1942.2 where a third of Russia is already under German control. Would at least make it more challenging for Japan to get defensive fighters to a place like Ukraine or W. Russia without breaking the NAP.

@Black_Elk:

The third thing is extremely important, because the OOB liberation rules are a huge factor in shaping the current OOB endgame. They are the reason why Allies can sacrifice Moscow to pursue a magnified play vs the Axis (usually KGF), secure in the knowledge that after Moscow goes down, all the other formerly Soviet territories are opened up to the West. As IL noted Japan can basically do the same with Europe under KGF conditions, after Berlin falls, if they are in the ascendance.

I don’t think it’s a problem that can be fixed with a single silver bullet HR. It needs at least a couple HRs working together, or the endgame is still likely to unravel in similarly weird patterns, as players try to game out the loopholes.

Maybe one way to work on this problem would be as follows.

First: as a starting point (and just as a starting point, not as an end point), wipe the slate clean of any production exceptions, any national liberation rules, any victory conditions, any capture-the-national-treasury rules, any the rules that relate to having to control your own capital in order to collect income or build factories or whatever, all income-related bonuses and income-related national advantages and national objectives, and work instead from the principle that a player’s income depends only on what territories he holds at the Collect Income phase.  Nothing more, nothing less.  A territory containing a capital would still have the IPC value that’s printed on the map, but the IPCs would be tied only to the territory itself, not to the capital.  This would (again, as a starting point for a game redesign) have the advantage of simplicity and uniformity, and it would help to untangle all the factors that have gotten mixed into the income equation.

Second: from this baseline assumption, decide exactly what role capitals ought to play in the game in relation to things like victory conditions, but NOT in relation to income or production.  From a non-income point of view, what would a capital represent (political symbolism? administrative control?) and how would it be translated into game terms?  What incentives would players have to hold their own capital and/or to capture the enemy’s capital?  What factors would make it non-critical for players to hold their own capital and/or to capture the enemy’s capital?

Third: having sorted out the basics of how income ideally ought to work and the basics of what capitals ideally ought to do, then –and only then – start to consider one-by-one possible modifications that relate to things like national objectives and so forth.  I’m not saying those things are undesirable; what I’m saying is that from a design point of view it’s sometimes easier to break down a complex system into its component parts, take a hard look at all of them, then reassemble it piece by piece, starting with the most basic and most solid ones first, then deciding on a case-by-case basis what you want to do with the other pieces (keep them, modify them or discard them).

Based on a WCO Marc cartesian Tabula Rasa,
Capital conquered only scenario, it seems hard to imagine not giving any reward, knowing how it is costly.
Usually Germany would only get pyrrhic victories over Moscow or London.
IPCs or PUs are need to buy units and replaced lost ones.
And Japanese Center Crush would be the same with or without a prize in IPCs at Moscow.

Unless Victory conditions are stated totally differently.
This example is not very conclusive, but gives an idea how this can be different:

Like: Each Axis Capital have a sworn enemy City and must conquered one each.
Germany must choose between London or Moscow
Italy must choose between India (Cairo is along the path) or Moscow
Japan must choose between San Francisco or India+Sydney (the other becomes capitol-in-exile).

If any Axis power get hold of any one sworn enemy’s City, it gets another income turns and play immediately.

The game ends if Axis surrender or three cities are conquered.

Stalin even allowed German submarines to use Soviet bases prior Barbarossa, I think he would have no issue with Western units operating in Easern Front at all.

Well being that you got that from me…

US/UK/ Chinese units cannot move onto/through USSR land territory until the Soviets are reduced under X IPC’s, or until X,Y,and Z are under Axis Control

What would be purpose of this rule other than encouraging even more of Moscow tank blitz? Just because Western units didn’t fight on Russian territories doesn’t mean they couldn’t. Even there were serious discussions to send British units to Caucasus during Case Blue.

Even Finland as officially non-Axis country allowed German units to operate in its territories.

Because Finland was a signatory of the Anti-Comintern pact , and The Soviets had been at war with them prior and wanted Germany’s protection, and third because Finland is Finland and Stalin is Stalin.