German quick route to middle east back of Russia


  • G1 buying a minor complex and placing in Romania. G2 placing 2 (maybe 3) transports in sea zone 100. G3 buying Carrier and destroyer, transport units to Causasus, and push units East into Russia. Place Carrier and Destroyer in sea zone 100 and land two fighters on carrier that may have been used in a fight. Consider upgrading Romanian factory to a major at some point.

    My thoughts are having the ability to quickly move german units into the back side of russia, and into the middle east to capture territories and national objectives. What i don’t like about it is the cost of the transports and ships in sz 100 that wont get out unless strict neutrals are attacked which I wish to avoid. Units could be transported to Ukraine and quickly take over the southern side and back of russia.

    Once you get a few tanks and mechs on the back side of russia scooping up territory after territory, you can send in bombers to Moscow  and have places to land, and really slow down Russia.

    Just came to mind that you would probably also want a naval base in Romania to fix you carrier if attacked… Thats another 15ipc’s.
    I am not sure this is an effective way to spend the ipc’s. Maybe just buying land units and pushing through Russia is the ticket.


  • Wondering if the national objectives obtained and land in russia would justify the expense of it all.
    12 minor factory, (I like the idea of a factory here anyways so it’s not entirely an expense for this push alone.)
    14 in transports,
    15 in naval base,
    16 in carrier,
    8 in DD
    (maybe could avoid naval base by getting two destroyers but your defense is weaker)
    65ipc’s spread over 3 rounds.


  • 65 IPCs spent on non anti-Russia fighting forces generally means that Moscow cannot be captured in any reasonable period of time.  It also means that the Russian stack can stand toe-to-toe with the German stack and not be afraid.  That frees up the UK to start producing fast units in Persia.  Combined with a significant UK air force, that can usually push a minor German expedition out of Russia’s soft belly.

    I am not saying that it couldn’t work, but I am saying that I rarely see Germany succeed if they significantly spend on anything other than ground units and planes.


  • Personally I like the idea but think its too expensive as it becomes obsolete after you have taken over Southern Russia in 2-3 turns. You do get those bonuses fast and especially if this allows you to take over Middle East + Southern Russia and eventually Egypt this gives you 21 NO bonus IPC per turn after G5-6, +20 in territories.

    However the Russian player could easily build airforce of around 6 planes to destroy it and then its an absolute waste of points not invested in troops.

    In my opinion it starts becoming a great investment when you plan to crush the neutrals and it allows you to enter the Med. It you would be interested to consider that or the discussion around it take a look at the Afrika Korps plan most recent ideas.


  • The biggest issue with this is why build that much navy with it. Unless I am ill-informed all those units are trapped and can not get past the straight of Turkey unless you also invade and capture Turkey.


  • Protect the transports is all. Could always attack turkey and come out of the strait. Hope was to be able to take a bunch of Russian territory so they don’t have the money to build a big defense or counter assault. By the time you attack Russia, say turn 3, or 4, they’ve had that many rounds to build troops with, by the time you do get to Moscow door they have another 2-3 rounds of stacking. Kind of felt this could slow down the stack and let you bomb Moscow. I

    I free its a lot of money that is probably better spend on troops. Gonna keep toying with figures.

    Could also use to push into Calcutta, china and Egypt.


  • @Strollmasta:

    Protect the transports is all. Could always attack turkey and come out of the strait. Hope was to be able to take a bunch of Russian territory so they don’t have the money to build a big defense or counter assault. By the time you attack Russia, say turn 3, or 4, they’ve had that many rounds to build troops with, by the time you do get to Moscow door they have another 2-3 rounds of stacking. Kind of felt this could slow down the stack and let you bomb Moscow. I

    I free its a lot of money that is probably better spend on troops. Gonna keep toying with figures.

    Could also use to push into Calcutta, china and Egypt.

    I do not agree that fleet is a waste of money, actually I prefer to buy fleet for all Axis in the first turns of the game as fleet (transports) = offense advantage + mobility which you need. It could be a good investment but because its such a big investment design your remaining strategy so it correlates with your goals. I have used your plan a lot when I started playing Germany with great succes. But it also failed sometimes (more and more) and I realized it was sub-optimal. You could fix that

  • '21 '20 '18 '17

    Germany can hide behind peace.  Will probably need a Major Complex because placing only 3 units per turn isn’t enough (even carrier+2TT).  Extremely slow and expensive plan that requires you to spend the G2 money to put this fleet down.

    It only works because Russia has too few planes to smash you outright.  If they could, then they should because its a navy trapped in a puddle and if they wreck it, Germany lost the game.

    ABH has this right that while the Black Sea Fleet is a clever enough surprise, it wastes 2 turns of spend and time on units that cannot march to Moscow.  It does make south Russia indefensible, but so do stacks of tanks produced starting G1 not G3.

    Maybe the best use of this is as a decoy to try and get the Russians to attack you with their planes…but if they fail to do so they are not really that much more vulnerable than if there were no fleet there (yes troops can amphib to the Caucasus, but they could simply march through or out of Ukraine instead, which is a free objective, not a $100 spend).  When you wait to start the march and spend the money on things other than tanks mechs and arty, the drive on Moscow falters…

    You have to march on Moscow, the earlier you start the better…

  • '17

    I think this strategy would mostly bite off more than the chew is worth, but it would be very fun!

    Purchasing a carrier + 1 destroyer +2 fighters on the carrier is enough protection for transports to make Russia think it’s not worth sacrificing it’s air force to sink the transports. No need to build a naval base…I disagree with that being “used” as a con for this fun idea.

    This might be the situation like Africacorp states where violating the strict neutrals would make sense (but only if Germany and Italy would be in position to start that “race” while Japan doesn’t do a J1 attack). And the only reason to violate the strict neutrals would be to land 6 ground units, plus the Luffwaffe hitting and taking Cairo (or setting it up for Italy). The point is to further economically hurt UK Europe, gain an NO, and gain access to more NOs in the Middle East.

    A plus here of course is if the UK already built an IC in Egypt and it then got captured. Upon capturing Egypt, you’d bring the fleet back to SZ100, keep churing out lots of infantry from Germany proper marching to Russia and W. Germany for defense, while using the transports in the sea zone to fight for the Caucasus. You may still never get Moscow. But this strategic theory makes me think it’s more for a building a situation where the Europe Axis board side becomes economically strong to the point they win by default.

    Regardless, I do think that this strategy most likely would result in a fail due to extra risks/costs/ect. compared to the traditional time tables and purchases for a traditional Barbarossa. Germany might get hit too quickly at Norway or Holland and the allies stick a landing. Maybe a J1 might be a good supporting option after all. The allies player(s) might lick their lips and decide, I’m going to KGF and ignore Japan which then gets out of control. Anyways, as I said in the first sentence it looks like it would be fun. After all, we play this game for that reason.

  • '17

    Taamvan,

    Major IC due to timing I think brings this risky adventure much more risky because of no war units being purchased G1 period. But I see your point of timing vs. cost. And I do agree that the surprise factor is important.

    If purchasing a Major IC, then all of the boats would be purchased on Turn 2, then used to hit the Caucasus on Turn 3.

    If purchasing a Minor IC, then transports would be purchased on Turn 2, then used to hit the Caucasus on Turn 3 (then Germany would place new units (carrier + destroyer + fighters) there for protection). So I don’t see the actual time saving by purchasing a Major.

    If purchasing a Minor IC on Turn 1, I would also purchase 3 artillery and 2 infantry (5 ground units) to try to mitigate the naval purchases. Remember, often people used to purchase a carrier + 2 transports, or a destroyer and a sub and no ground units to “fake” Sea Lion. Some still purchase all naval units on G1 and still make it to Moscow.


  • Thought with a turn one I’d get and minor ic, and a tank and 3 artillery. Dark Skys UK G2. Plan to keep USA out until turn 3 with taking Borneo and Philippines. Figure once you have Ukraine you can use that factory on SZ100 as well.

    Dunno, I’d love the quick dash to the middle east and back side of russia to watch them panic. I think Moscow could be taken after Russia goes too many rounds with out ipc’s to spend and factory bombed out. However I do agree that the money in troops is necessary to breaking down russia.

    What do most of you do to get German troops to Egypt? Transports from Yugo? minor in Yugo and send em down?

    If you take out Turkey, how do players keep USA from taking spain. Talk about spreading your boarder troops thin.

  • '17

    Strollmaster,

    In my games, Germany doesn’t get troops to Egypt because I’m playing a competent UK player. The only time(s) that’s remotely possible and has occurred is if the UK player doesn’t take out two Italian transports UK1. In that situation the German Luffwaffe is used for defensive purposely to let Italy build up on Alexandria before attacking Egypt. Never have I as Germany thought it smart to purchase an IC in Yugo just for the purpose of going after Egypt. Not worth it all. In that case, let Germany get S. France. I think purchasing a minor IC just for hitting Caucasus is a better plan than a minor at Yugo for Egypt.

    Ichabod


  • Cool, thank you. Just finished round one and I’m debating still if I should use the Black Sea or buy land units and push into Russia. Silly Russia bought a carrier and a destroyer round one lol. U.K. Pulled all its med troops through the Suez Canal, and brought in the cruiser off Gibraltar to attack my cruiser and transport in sz96. They also left trans Jordan empty so I meant to transport a man to trans Jordan to block the canal but wasn’t thinking right and went to do it in non combat phase and realized that’s still a combat move even though there was no combat. So of course I wasn’t allowed to go back and fix that blunder. So I suspect to lose a battleship two cruisers and two transports out of it. I sent my sub and destroyer, both Italy planes and bomber after the French ships. They died and took my sub and destroyer out. Sent bb, two cruisers, after the one U.K. Cruiser. Took it out with out a return hit. Transported a man and tank to Tobruk, and meant to put one on trans Jordan. Having a hard time not feeling like it’s a nasty hole to try and get out of. I didn’t spend my $10 and got $20 so I’ve got $30 to play with. Figure I’ll let U.K. Take my ships out and then hit them with planes and clear the med again. Crap

  • '17 '16 '15

    Wow Russian carrier. Can honestly say I’ve never seen that before : )


  • I let Italy scoop southern France up. Can you scramble from southern Italy into sea zone 95 or 97 if they amphibiously assault northern Italy? Gonna read up on scrambles. If you can scramble into a sea zone adjacent to a territory being assulted from sea then building a minor in yugo might be my best bet to help the med and Egypt.

    Forget one little thing and it turns the game around

  • '17

    From play testing by myself on TripleA 3 games. I’m not so sure the expenditures of a Black Sea Fleet for transporting units to Caucasus were really worth it. I never tried this plan with a Major IC.

    I found that from the Russian player’s perspective it wasn’t hard to cover that area as they are or will have built just as many ground units as Germany did due to the IPC expenditures on ships. When the transports are built, it’s clear to the Russian player that they have to start producing units at Stalingrad to protect Southern Russia. The German side didn’t have a whole lot of powerful units ready to start the simultaneous march towards to Bryansk from the south while concurrently hitting the Caucasus on Turn 3. However, by Turn 4, it may have started making a difference.

    Another serious problem with this plan is that due to purchasing the fleet in the Black Sea, the German player had virtually no defensive fleet to protect Norway when/if the Scharnhorst (Battleship) was lost. Once time I ran this and that battleship wasn’t lost. Either way, the US player is able to land 6-8 troops on Normandy, plus 4 UK ground and 4-6 Allies fighters. This early landing is not going to be pushed off quickly.

    Conclusion:  1. The Baltic German Battleship must remain so it’s cheaper to build on it, plus the 3 plane scramble from W. Germany to hold the allies from snatching that NO from Germany. If Germany has to build an entire fleet in Norway or garrison it’s northern Army in Finland (to protect Norway via counter attack), this strategy fails real quick. Either way, this strategy makes for an obvious Kill Germany First strategy for the allies. 2.  Consider not attacking Russia until Turn 4. This way Germany gets to collect a NO one more time. Can hit Russia anywhere near the Black Sea with 6 cheap infantry and a lot of planes in order to make up for the extra Russian infantry/artillery builds.

    3. Germany must bomb Stalingrad the same turn it attacks Russia in order to also start making up for the cost of the ships.
    Russia has to build in Stalingrad or give up position.

    4. I found in my game testing that it was better for Japan to do a strong J1 attack on the Western Allies with the hopes of actually winning on the Pacific side board. Not attacking the US until round 3/4 or Round 1 doesn’t really matter because the US is making a strong landing on US 5 no matter what if they’re doing a KGF attack. Also, this caused the UK player to think about sending units towards Calcutta or towards the Caucasus. They couldn’t do both.

  • '21 '20 '18 '17

    Yep, you can.   Any AB bordering a SZ can scramble out over an ambhib from that SZ into any adjacent territory.  The targeted landing zone need not be the terr. with the AB.

    Ichabod,

    Now you’re getting me to remember that it was a airbase that my opp. used to protect the ships.   With only 3 units coming down G2 we would have to buy the carrier, destroyer and one other.   If we add the AB, we need all 5 fighters to help so they cant be used elsewhere.  I suppose AB + MiC might be a stronger play than the big factory, but all of these ideas are super expensive, but then the transports come out few and slow.   Germany doesn’t necessarily need amphib ground troops to be joining these battles so badly, the advantage is positional (you cut off the reinforce route by blocking caucausus), it just has such a massive mobility and air lightsaber it can crush strongpoints wherever they are…

    If you’re facing a Russian Carrier and the Axis doesn’t win, something went wrong.   Did someone violate Swiss neutrality?


  • No violation of swiss yet lol. Turn one russia bought carrier and destroyer and put up next to the sub and cruiser in SZ115. I bought a minor ic in romania and 3 artillery and 2 infantry. UK Pacific transported a man to Persia and I’m sure will build a minor ic there round two. I was just trying to think of the fastest way to get the middle east and and bolster the german ipc’s early in the game. Especially i can take that minor ic in persia turn 4 or 5. Might hold off on the black sea for another round, let them build it first and try pushing into russia round two or three.

    My biggest worry is Italy not being able to grow and having it turtle the whole game or cause germany to spend money in the med.

  • '17

    Taamvan,

    Obviously buying a Minor IC in Romania plus a fleet (or Airbase) to protect transports for sending troops right to the Caucasus or Ukraine (wherever makes the most sense) is not going to supersede just buying normal ground and air. From play testing on TripleA, it was easy for me to see from the allies’ perspective that the German Black Sea Fleet is a not a better investment than normal ground/air. It’s just fun to try a different strategy rather than the normal time table march towards Bryansk on G5-6 and hitting Moscow on G6-7. The timetable march towards Moscow makes me think of the famous mobilization timetables of World War 1.

    Doing this Black Sea transport plan might make the allied player lick their lips and say well, “I guess I’m doing a KGF plan.” So, I think Japan should do a strong J1 attack because regardless, the US can make a strong landing on Germany (due to all of the purchases in Romania) on US 5 whether or not Japan brings them into the war on J1 or J3. Japan needs to do really well and get out of hand to force the US to respond to them and not do what they want to do KGF.

    One thing I did like from the German perspective is that the German player could hit several places with only cheap infantry cannon fodder and lots of planes on G4 which are not stacked up like the usual situation (might be able to start this on G3 if doing the airbase/3 transport purchase plan). This is a key difference compared to the normal march plan. The idea is that you want to think of this rather than marching into Russia until you’ve hit them a few turns. I think of this soley as a strategy for repeatable trying to take the Caucasus NO, while removing Russian units from the board rather than 1 or 2 infantry blockers at a time.

    By building a carrier, destroyer, and 1 transport Turn 2 (I realized surface war ships were required due to the UK bomber being on Malta after the UK1 Taranto raid), Germany couldn’t do much on G3 with 1 transport. But it caused Russia to hold a few units back, rather than consolidating as quickly for a stack on Bryansk. I will play test with an air base and 3 transport purchase on G2 (which is cheaper at that moment than purchasing a carrier and destroyer combo, plus an air base has other benefits than a just a carrier sitting in the Black Sea). Of course this means 3 fighters are stuck there, which means having to purchase lots of fighters for other areas and 3rd order effect problem being Germany might not have enough IPCs to cover that cost. But in the short term, Germany could hit Russia on G3 with 6 infantry + air on G3. Then at least once more on G4 before they have to really worry about the allies coming.

    In my play testing, Russia was able to stack about 8 units of ground on the Caucasus on R2 with air (if pretending I didn’t know on R1 that Germany planned to build transports with the Romanian minor IC). This prevented Germany from striking until G4 (due to only having 1 transport). So by going with an air base and 3 transports on G2, Germany might be able to strike harder and faster, smash those 8 units which becomes attritional, or simply walk into the Caucasus. Might make a difference.

    I will play test this on TripleA tonight see what happens.


  • A couple comments about this updated plan:

    1. Many Allied players are now retreating the Med fleet to the Red Sea and bringing over a couple of fighters from India to prevent an Italian conquest of Egpyt.  I see that at least half of my games now.  The airbase would be insufficient to protect the transports from the UK planes that could land in the Caucasus.

    2)  I would love to see these alternative opening strategies be play tested in either in an Allies +25-30 bid game or in a balance mod game with competent opponents.  I am not very impressed if a plan only works against inexperienced Allied players or in a unmodified game where the Axis has a 75% chance of winning using one of the more standard openings. Against bad opponents I could even propose a strat like massive German aa Gun build and get it to succeed.

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