Surprise strike complications



  • Looking for a little clarification of the rules regarding “surprise strike”. Rules are a little foggy in the book.

    Rules state:
    Each attacking submarine conducting a Surprise Strike rolls one
    die. Attacking submarines that roll a “2” or less score a hit. After
    the attacking player has rolled for all attacking submarines, the
    defender chooses 1 sea unit (submarines can’t hit air units) for
    each hit scored and moves it behind the casualty strip. (Note:
    undamaged capital ships that are hit only once are not removed.)
    Then each defending submarine conducting a Surprise Strike
    rolls one die. Defending submarines that roll a “1” score a
    hit. After the defending player has rolled for all defending
    submarines, the attacker chooses 1 sea unit for each hit scored
    and removes it from play. (Note: undamaged capital ships that
    are hit only once are not removed.)

    So the defender moves units behind the casualty strip just like in bombardments. Attacker removes units from play just like taking hits normally. Pretty clear and simple explanation. Easy to understand, easy to follow.

    Then it says : Once all attacking and defending submarines that conducted a
    Surprise Strike have fired, the casualties they have generated
    are
    removed from the game and this step (step 2) is over for
    this round of combat.

    Units moved behind the casualty strip are obviously considered a casualty, and this explains to remove them from play rather than allowing them the chance to retaliate during the defenders turn. So why doesn’t it  just say that the defender chooses sea units and removes them from play, rather than say to move it behind the casualty strip, if you are just going to remove all casualties from play anyways.

    The only way I see the defender moving units behind the casualty strip to stay in play is if the defender chooses submarines for casualties and they also qualify for a surprise strike. Then they can attack one try and are removed from play. But if I choose a destroyer and move it behind the casualty strip, does it stay there until it’s the defenders turn to attack and can use it’s, or is it removed from play before the attacker attacks after the surprise strike attack is done?
    It’s like bombardments, you move units behind the casualty strip for every hit, not remove from play.

    Thank you!!


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13

    If defender removes his subs from attackers first strike hits, the defenders subs don’t get the surprise attack.

    Once you remove first strike casualty they get no return fire.

    I believe behind the casualty strip just means theres another space behind it to show what casualties you removed from the first strike hits and they get no return shot period.



  • I thought that as well but when I read Bombardments it says this:

    Roll one die for each battleship and cruiser that can conduct
    bombardment. Battleships hit on a die roll of �4� or less,
    and cruisers hit on a �3� or less. For each hit, the defender
    will move a defending unit behind the casualty strip. These
    casualties will be able to defend during the land combat step
    before they are eliminated.

    Battle Strip, Casualty Strip, and Dice
    The battle strip is a card with columns that list attacking and defending units and their combat strengths. When combat
    occurs, the players involved place their units on both sides of the battle strip. Combat is resolved by rolling dice.
    Casualties are designated by being moved behind the casualty strip.

    The surprise strike rules kind of answer the question when it states that all casualties generated are removed from the play. As opposed to removed from the game? lol. I understand the purpose of the surprise strike is a nice befit of using subs, but from a defenders side of things it’s kind of a mess with the rules. The last paragraph I guess seals the deal though, if something is moved behind the casualty strip then it’s obviously a casualty and is removed from the game.



  • @SS:

    If defender removes his subs from attackers first strike hits, the defenders subs don’t get the surprise attack.

    Once you remove first strike casualty they get no return fire.

    I believe behind the casualty strip just means theres another space behind it to show what casualties you removed from the first strike hits and they get no return shot period.

    Also, if the defender moves the sub behind the casualty strip as a chosen hit, I thought they’d get to shoot a surprise strike at 1 as well?


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13

    Remove pieces from battle board for all first strike hits.

    Shore bombardment hit pieces are moved to casualty strip to show they get a return shot.


  • 2018 2017

    As we just played it this weekend, its the same as MtG CCG;  the defending sub is also first striking and essentially, first striking is its own phase before regular-speed striking (ie first striking “cancels” first striking).

    This means that you CAN take the defending sub as a casualty to the attacking sub’s first strike, and it still gets to fire in defense.

    If a defending sub gets a hit, and there are no attacking subs to lose (these are best to lose since at this juncture, they have already fired, unless you have soak-hits from BBs), then the defending sub gets a first strike hit on a surface ship, which may cause it to lose its attack later in the round.

    However, if the attacker has lost all its destroyers at that point or never had any, it would be wiser to submerge since your defense is so pathetic.  If the enemy attacks your 10 submarines with no DD and no submarines of his own, he is looking at 10 defending first strikes at “1” (that can only hit ships and transports last) before he can roll anything.

    Think I got all that right HTH.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13

    @taamvan:

    As we just played it this weekend, its the same as MtG CCG;  the defending sub is also first striking and essentially, first striking is its own phase before regular-speed striking (ie first striking “cancels” first striking).

    This means that you CAN take the defending sub as a casualty to the attacking sub’s first strike, and it still gets to fire in defense.

    OK



  • @taamvan:

    As we just played it this weekend, its the same as MtG CCG;  the defending sub is also first striking and essentially, first striking is its own phase before regular-speed striking (ie first striking “cancels” first striking).

    This means that you CAN take the defending sub as a casualty to the attacking sub’s first strike, and it still gets to fire in defense.

    **If a defending sub gets a hit, and there are no attacking subs to lose (these are best to lose since at this juncture, they have already fired, unless you have soak-hits from BBs), then the defending sub gets a first strike hit on a surface ship, which may cause it to lose its attack later in the round.  **

    However, if the attacker has lost all its destroyers at that point or never had any, it would be wiser to submerge since your defense is so pathetic.   If the enemy attacks your 10 submarines with no DD and no submarines of his own, he is looking at 10 defending first strikes at “1” (that can only hit ships and transports last) before he can roll anything.

    Think I got all that right HTH.

    I understand those sub are good casualties to take, but don’t they get to surprise strike again at the start of the next battle sequence? So every time you get to surprise strike, the defender loses ships to defend with, every round of battle. Worth turning the BB and carriers (if landing planes isn’t an issue in the sea zone) over for. Might even drop out some destroyers and cruiser just to know casualties that the defender takes can’t participate in the remaining battle.


  • 2018 2017 2016 2015

    Subs only get the surprise strike if there are no enemy destroyers present. So there wouldn’t be a situation where a sub gets a surprise strike and hits a destroyer that would get to return fire.

    It seems to me that the confusion and your question stem from the fact that hits from surprise strike subs kill units immediately EXCEPT for subs that are also conducting a surprise strike.

    Surprise strikes only occur when there are no destroyers. If there are no enemy destroyers, subs fire first and get the surprise strike. IF the defender has defending surprise-strike subs (ie. no attacking destroyer is present), then those subs can return fire.

    This is why the defender moves hit units behind the casualty line - only surprise-strike subs will roll in this stage, including ones just hit, so you need to leave them on the battle board to remember to roll for them. Attacking units that are hit by defending surprise-strike subs are always removed right away because there is no casualty line for attackers (IIRC) and they are just dead without the ability to fire anymore.

    The final step to remove casualties is just a reminder to remove all destroyed units so you don’t roll for them anymore.



  • @Strollmasta:

    Units moved behind the casualty strip are obviously considered a casualty, and this explains to remove them from play rather than allowing them the chance to retaliate during the defenders turn. So why doesn’t it  just say that the defender chooses sea units and removes them from play, rather than say to move it behind the casualty strip, if you are just going to remove all casualties from play anyways.

    The only way I see the defender moving units behind the casualty strip to stay in play is if the defender chooses submarines for casualties and they also qualify for a surprise strike. Then they can attack one try and are removed from play. But if I choose a destroyer and move it behind the casualty strip, does it stay there until it’s the defenders turn to attack and can use it’s, or is it removed from play before the attacker attacks after the surprise strike attack is done?
    It’s like bombardments, you move units behind the casualty strip for every hit, not remove from play.

    Thank you!!

    You already gave your answer. The defender can chose subs that can also surprise strike back. Those subs also get to shoot and removing them from the board might make you forget those units.
    Remember the rulebook is written in a way that makes it extremely easy to the point of stupidity sometimes. Its not like people cant first roll their subs in defence and then assign casualties or just remember how many dice they had to throw.

    But then again does anybody actualy use the battleboard at all? We normaly leave the units on the board ( big battles we just put them in an empty zone for clarity and counting purposes ) but getting to a battleboard why bother. Verry small battles we dont even remove units but just remove dice from our dicepool as removing units is obvious in most cases.

    The reason for the battle board and other parts is simple.

    Battle board displays the units egible to attack during a round of combat ( this includes the casualtie strip )
    Casualty strip is there for units that where hit during this round of combat. You might forget how many hits the other guy did.

    After each round of combat you just remove all units on the casualty strip.

    The surpise round is basicaly a round of combat in which only subs shoot ( if there are no enemy destroyer ), it also has its own update phase where you remove units that where hit.



  • Thank you for the clarifications there. I do know about the destroyers canceling surprise strike for either attacker or defender, depending on which side the destroyer is on. I’ll try not to look too far into the rules, or read any deeper than needed. We typically use the battle board because of unfortunate happenings from leaving them on the map. If it’s 2 or less defenders then we keep it on the map.

    My point of confusion is just that the book tells the defender to move units hit behind the casualty strip. Every other scenario in the game in which the defender moves units behind the casualty strip, those units get to return fire. However in surprise strike they don’t get to return fire unless it is a sub and the attacker has no destroyer in the battle. Would help if rules said defender removes chosen hit units from play unless they choose subs capable of first strike, those are placed behind the casualty strip and may return fire at their defense values.

    Anyways, what I wish it said is not important. Y’all have helped me understand this ruling and I look forward to using it to my advantage lol.


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