IS Kill Japan first viable



  • Hi guys,

    I Play A&A for over fifteen yeras now. My playgroup only plays Global 40 second Edition since it wa released because ist the best A&A ever (we only play with lowluck rules and no bidding).

    I have an upcoming game next weekend. I will play the allies (i play them alone so i have the full control). I have a huge problem.

    The Axis always attacks the USA on turn 1 in hawai and the philipines. My question is do ich have to react with kill Japan first or should i buy for the Atlantic. The other problem is sometimes they combine it with sea Lion. So i have do buy defensive with England which Wngalnd inefficient (mainly inf first and second round).

    Last time i tried Grasshopers spain beachhead strat. It didnt work because Japan got too big and totally out of control. And Germany could hold their homelands and italy long enough. Can someone help me how to react when Japan does a first round attack in the seazone at hawai.

    Also i need advise how should i play kill Japan first, because if the japanese player is smart he plays very defensive and he can do also a land offensive (its possible even if you play kill Japan fisrt).

    Any suggestions?



  • Dont try to kill japan as US go for their navy and put some subs in SZ6 to convoy him.

    Without their navy Anzac and UK-Pac can easy clear out the rest as japan isnt making that much money and they are both in the 20’s

    That should give US freedom to go after germany.



  • @ShadowHAwk:

    Dont try to kill japan as US go for their navy and put some subs in SZ6 to convoy him.

    Without their navy Anzac and UK-Pac can easy clear out the rest as japan isnt making that much money and they are both in the 20’s

    That should give US freedom to go after germany.

    I would say that’s the very definition of KJF.



  • To kill the Navy of Japan is the definition of Kill Japan first. Can someone pls give me detailed answers how i react to an attack from japan first round in the seazone of Hawaii. Also its not easy to kill Japans navy when they buy ships which they easily can. Especially when they do a turn 1 attack in the swazone of Hawaii……



  • What do they have left in the hawai SZ after their attack?

    What can you attack round 1 that hurts them?

    Do you still own hawai ( you should ), can you kill/criple the fleet there on US1?

    Remember that you can hit them once with US to damage the carriers and BB and retreat and then have anzac attack them with 2 fighters and a cruiser to destroy BB and carriers.

    It is really hard for anyone to give advice if we dont know how they did their J1 and what is where.



  • @ShadowHawk,

    Ok they wipe out the complete American fleet at Hawaii. They are there with 2 Carriers fully loaded with fighters. One battleship, one submarine, 2 destoyes, 1 cruiser and one Transport.

    Ohh they only loose planes which Japan can totally afford because they move their planes from Japan and other isles or the other carrier in tactical movement to refill the carriesrs at hawaii.

    An american atttack on this flleet is suicide and gives america nothing even if they can sink some ships there is nothing left from the USA which is a Desaster for them in the pacific, because it takes to much time to rebuild the fleet.

    Also I thin they conquer Hawaii first turn (but definetly 2nd turn) but im not sure because its 3 months ago….



  • It should be virtually impossible to capture Hawaii on J1.  The Americans can have 2 infantry and 2 fighters to defend against an infantry and a tank. If you lose this <1% battle than just start over: the dice are not in your favor.  If Japan stacks everything in SZ26, they can’t be counter attacked.  Otherwise you have a chance to trade even value of units.  For the Allies, an even exchange is a win since you are out-earning the Axis.

    There are times when you can’t push back the Axis fleet for the first couple of rounds.  The Allies can land a large number of planes on the Island.  You can get 3 additional American + 3 ANZAC planes there on the first round.  Yes, this can be defeated if Japan dedicates all of there efforts to conquering Hawaii.  Meanwhile China will be nearly impossible to control because of the combined efforts with India.  The economy of UK Pacific can easily reach 20+ if Japan is focusing a majority of their efforts on Hawaii.  Add in a potential 12 PU for China and those two nations can hold their own on mainland Asia.  If Japan can’t control Mainland Asia and control the Money Islands, they will lose the economic battle.  The country starts with 26 PUs and needs to quickly get that up to the 60-70 range if the Axis is going to win.

    This is why most Axis players don’t dedicate much, if any, effort to capture Hawaii in the early stages of the game.  Some will feign an attack to force the US to retreat their fleet to safer waters.  Others will sink the fleet at Pearl Harbor and retreat back to Japanese waters on J2.  A majority just focus on targets nearer to Mainland Asia where they can use the massive airforce to threaten Allied fleets along with the flexibility to target land armies.



  • @AlphaAeffchen:

    @ShadowHawk,

    Ok they wipe out the complete American fleet at Hawaii. They are there with 2 Carriers fully loaded with fighters. One battleship, one submarine, 2 destoyes, 1 cruiser and one Transport.

    Ohh they only loose planes which Japan can totally afford because they move their planes from Japan and other isles or the other carrier in tactical movement to refill the carriesrs at hawaii.

    An american atttack on this flleet is suicide and gives america nothing even if they can sink some ships there is nothing left from the USA which is a Desaster for them in the pacific, because it takes to much time to rebuild the fleet.

    Also I thin they conquer Hawaii first turn (but definetly 2nd turn) but im not sure because its 3 months ago….

    Ok like Arthur said the Japanese aren’t taking Hawaii J1, and that works to your advantage. If they put that fleet in sz26 (1ss, 2dd, 1ca, 1bb 2cv, 4ftr) I would have to hit it with everything the US has. You have 1dd, 1ca, 1 bb, 1cv, 5ftrs, 1tac, and a bmr that can hit it. Yea you have crappy odds, but its not a fight to the finish, you’re only looking to go a couple rounds. The thing is to hit him, and then retreat your air, and maybe a damaged bb (land on Hawaii), and then let the Anz finish him off with 3ftrs, and a cruiser (planes land on Hawaii). The Japanese can only absorb so many hits before it starts to hurt, and if they take a hit on a carrier you can retreat with the US and watch his planes crash into the sea because they have no place to land because he didn’t take Hawaii (less for the ANZ to deal with).

    The last thing that the Japanese want to do is start buying expensive ships, and that is what the US lives for. Once you take out the biggest part of the Japanese navy it should be all down hill from there.

    What we see more often is the Japanese hit the Pearl fleet, and NCM the carriers, bb and ca to Wake, but they make sure that a Japanese dd survives the attack on sz26 to block out the US sz10 fleet from hitting the Wake fleet.



  • @AlphaAeffchen:

    @ShadowHawk,

    Ok they wipe out the complete American fleet at Hawaii. They are there with 2 Carriers fully loaded with fighters. One battleship, one submarine, 2 destoyes, 1 cruiser and one Transport.

    Ohh they only loose planes which Japan can totally afford because they move their planes from Japan and other isles or the other carrier in tactical movement to refill the carriesrs at hawaii.

    An american atttack on this flleet is suicide and gives america nothing even if they can sink some ships there is nothing left from the USA which is a Desaster for them in the pacific, because it takes to much time to rebuild the fleet.

    Also I thin they conquer Hawaii first turn (but definetly 2nd turn) but im not sure because its 3 months ago….

    Still not a bad trade for the US, just attack with everything you got, But if they take the hits on carriers before planes retreat.
    You got 5 fighters 1 tactical 1 strat 1 dd 1 cruiser 1 BB and 1 carrier 32 attack about 5 hits on offense
    they got 4 fighters 2 carriers 1 BB 2 destr 1 sub and 1 cruiser. 32 on defence, 5 hits on defence

    Just asuming Low-Luck as a prediction this looks like mutual annihilation, if japan survives anzac will clean them up.

    You can take the first 3 hits on carrier and BB, so you only lose 1 dd and 1 fighter as power.
    They cannot take any hits on carriers so will be BB and then lose 2 destr 1 sb 1 cruiser

    If they dont and chose to take 2 hits on carriers you retreat and he loses another 4 air.  Now you have 1 cruiser + 3 fighters VS 2 damaged carriers 1 damaged BB 1 cruiser and 1 destroyer, yes anzac can really take that 1 on and do some serious damage there.

    Combine this with a build of 2 carriers from the US and even if there are surviving damaged carriers - BB they will not be floating end of round 2.

    With 52 round 1 and 70 round 2  Vs 26 round 1 and 40 round 2 yes ill take that trade with US.
    Japan will be left with a skeleton fleet that even has to be scared of the UK and anzac fleets.
    Us will have a decent fleet and be able to start pumping subs and convoy japan, while building up in atlantic.

    So Japan fleet will be nearly destroyed with a good portion of his airforce ( unless he rebuilds )
    UK-pac will be making 21 - 26 round 1, anzac will be making 20 round 1.
    Start taking the money islands and anzac make subs - destr - trannies with filling.   UK-pac makes land units and start pushing into china.

    Japan will be done for after round 3 with nearly no fleet, subs convoying him and china being strong US and india can start to focus on helping russia survive.



  • Hey guys,

    thx for your answers. I will try your strategy and attack the japanese fleet. I just have one more question should i go for Kill Japan first in this Scenario. Or should i invest my money in the Atlantic? The upcoming rounds?



  • @AlphaAeffchen:

    Hey guys,

    thx for your answers. I will try your strategy and attack the japanese fleet. I just have one more question should i go for Kill Japan first in this Scenario. Or should i invest my money in the Atlantic? The upcoming rounds?

    First round invest in the pacific so you will have a US fleet that can take out the rest of Japan fleet and convoy their home islands.

    Switch round 3-4 to full atlantic you should have contained japan by now anyway.

    If japan wants to throw away its game on round 1 i would take the offer and punish them harsly for it.



  • I 100% agree with Shadow that mutual destruction is a win for the allies (even though you might lose more in IPC value). You need to be committed with the US, and be willing to go 2 rounds then re-evaluate. The first round you will be killing off the Japanese support ships, and dinging the BB. It’s the 2nd round of combat that will force the Japanese to make some tough decisions, and open up the door to continue the attack, or leave it for the Anzac to finish it. Keep in mind the Anz only have 4 units, and they all attack at 3.

    Even if the Japanese manage to keep a carrier or battle ship alive they are severely handicapped the rest of the game. I also agree that you should probably build on the Pac side for a turn or two to gain control before switching to the Euro side. UK should probably prepare as if a Sea Lion is on the table too. Once the axis get hit hard on the Pac side, they may feel that risking Sea Lion is a good option to re-gain the advantage (especially when you consider your post that says that’s what they like to do).

    Let us know how it goes, and make sure you don’t tip him off. Post a picture of the Japanese players face when you set-up your counter attack on sz26 and he realizes that he is screwed (especially once you point out the 1-2 punch w/Anz)
    WB



  • I also wonder how much the low luck system you’re using is effecting your games… aggression can be tamed with uncertainty.


  • 2018 2016

    Bombers tend to send the remainder of the Japanese fleet where it belongs on rd 2. Also if they run you can simply turn them around to Germany for the real fun party.



  • @seancb:

    Bombers tend to send the remainder of the Japanese fleet where it belongs on rd 2. Also if they run you can simply turn them around to Germany for the real fun party.

    I personaly like 2 carriers and some destroyers + subs. This can protect anzac and UK-Pac transports that take the money islands and then push for the rest. While convoy damage to the Japan home islands is being carried out.

    1-2 rounds of buys and after that the Anzac + UK-china can mop up the rest of japan and US can focus 100% on germany.
    Dont bother with a spain beachhead, just go gibraltar and then threathen 6 zones from there.  Clear the sea around europe and take out targets of opportunity.



  • Hi guys,

    many many thx for your help. We play saturdaynight. I drive to my hometown tommorow by train. I will post on tuesday how it worked. By the way they really like to combine this japanese attack with sealion. I always buy mainly inf for Uk the first two rounds perhaps one fighter…. Again many thx for your help. I play axis and allies so long but i still have  to learn so much  😄



  • @AlphaAeffchen:

    Hi guys,

    many many thx for your help. We play saturdaynight. I drive to my hometown tommorow by train. I will post on tuesday how it worked. By the way they really like to combine this japanese attack with sealion. I always buy mainly inf for Uk the first two rounds perhaps one fighter…. Again many thx for your help. I play axis and allies so long but i still have  to learn so much  😄

    Not a big deal, for sea lion make sure you can defend against it ( build inf and fighter round 1 ) dont throw away your airforce on the taranto raid.

    You might want to move your med fleet to gibraltar, if you canadian transport is still alive grab 2 units and move them to the UK in non-combat.
    Even if he wins sea lion make sure it will costs him so much that russia will just walk in and destroy him. Sea lion will only happen round 3 which is the round the US will buy massive for the atlantic. Germany will not have a airfleet left and there is a good chance your med fleet will whipe out his fleet.


  • 2018 2016

    Agree with Shadow. Don’t deviate from inf and fighter for UK1. You can go all infantry and one arty if you want. Usually the Sea Lion goes to Scotland first so make sure you move all units to London. You will have a good idea if Sea Lion is coming. If he doesn’t show it, I do Taranto. The only German open (just about every time now) is to not buy any units on the first turn. This can confuse and stifle just about any Allied player and leaves your options completely open.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Make sure you buy a third fighter for Calcutta UK1 and leave 3 fighters there, assuming two bombers are in position to hit it which they should be. I also recommend a tank.

    I’ve just played a couple of games against Omega1759 who has a very aggressive assist China as Russia strategy - runs hard as into China for a few turns to slow Japan. Worked pretty well. I thought I had an assist China philosophy in Global 1940 until I played him!

    Recently, I’ve been scrambling to SZ111 and SZ110 usually unless it is really unfavourable. Normally, scrambling results in a reduction in TUV loss and as others point out, TUV parity is generally a victory for Allies.

    Low luck makes Taranto less of a gamble for the UK so it likely to be worth while even if all the London and Scottish fighters are dead after a scramble. Don’t forget to buy 6inf 1ftr if you do this or Sea Lion will be too easy.

    J1 DOW allows freedom in the Atlantic so I’d be inclined to threaten Norway US3 via Iceland with the starting TT if possible, which it should be.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    As others have said though, it depends a lot on what they’ve left in SZ26. Could actually be 3CVs as well as the Cruiser, BB, 3DDs and maybe a sub. If that happens, it might be better to give up on Hawaii for a few rounds. You can fly the planes to Queensland to help in the money islands, India and China battles.



  • Yea, if they have all 3 carriers in sz26 all bets are off (need to go def). If that is the case though you will probably still be holding the Phil Isl (w/navy sunk), and can save the Phil ftr (fly to Queensland or Burma?)



  • @WILD:

    Yea, if they have all 3 carriers in sz26 all bets are off (need to go def). If that is the case though you will probably still be holding the Phil Isl (w/navy sunk), and can save the Phil ftr (fly to Queensland or Burma?)

    Im not so sure about that statement either.

    Sure the US has a disadvantage there but again anzac has a followup of 1 cruiser + 2 fighters ready.
    And Japan cannot repair and only has 2 moves, and they dont own Hawai round 1 so again they cannot take a hit on carriers before they lose some planes.

    You got 5 fighters 1 tactical 1 strat 1 dd 1 cruiser 1 BB and 1 carrier 32 attack about 5 hits on offense
    they got 6 fighters 3 carriers 1 BB 2 destr 1 sub and 1 cruiser. 42 on defence, 5 hits on defence

    Us still stays at 32 attack
    Japan gets to 42 defence ( asuming no tacticals survive the combat VS the mini fleet there otherwise defence will be less. Also they only have 2 fighters in japan in range so most likely will be 3 fighters 3 tacticals)

    You can take the first 3 hits on carrier and BB, so you only lose 1 dd and 3 fighter as power.
    They cannot take any hits on carriers so will be BB and then lose 2 destr 1 sb 1 cruiser, only 3 carries and 1 battleship + air left. Now US is trading Air Vs Air

    Again asuming average luck.
    21 Attack about 4 hits
    24 defence about 4 hits.

    Japan loses 3 fighters and soaks 1 hit on carrier ( they can soak 2 on carriers and lose 4 fighters if they really want )
    Us loses 2 fithers 1 tactical 1 cruiser

    continue for 1 or 2 extra hits and get destroyed or retreat if you have only air left option for the US.
    Now Japan only has small fleet left Anzac can hit it if they want to kill off even more and well that fleet isnt going anywhere.

    Us can buy some strat bombers and a few subs and either kill that fleet or force it away.

    The allies can afford to lose the hardware, Japan cannot. this will also mean that India and australia will be safe and Japan will not get to the money islands anytime soon.
    Both UK-Pac and anzac will grow fast in this scenario while Japan will be stalled for a few turns. Uk-Pac and Anzac having more combined income then Japan ( not even counting china ) while having a fleet of similar size. US does not even have to spend a lot in the pacific after round 1 and can focus on europe round 2. Sure Germany might do sea-lion but they will not hold the UK after round 4.



  • Hi,

    so here is my Report: Well I won both games  :-D.

    1 game: They attacked the seazone of Hawai. I did your counterattack and they immideatley surrendered (Japan has no chance when half of their fleet is destroyed).

    2 game: Japan played more defensive. Germany went for a sealion in round 4. I made Germany cost this attack so much that they never really could get back to old strength. The USA  went full atlantic and shiped everey round 5 infantry and tanks (about 10units). We didnt finish that game but the axis players surrendered because they saw that they couldnt hold the waves anymore. Also russia was far from beeing captured (Japan was in russian territory but alone no thread for russia). Thx for your help. We play next time at christmas (this time i will play the axis).


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Congrats. Allies are said to be almost impossible to win with, without a bid and even more on low luck.

    I think USA helping in the Atlantic is really important so long as they do enough to avoid losing in the Pacific.



  • @simon33:

    Congrats. Allies are said to be almost impossible to win with, without a bid and even more on low luck.

    I think USA helping in the Atlantic is really important so long as they do enough to avoid losing in the Pacific.

    That statement only holds true if the axis play perfect and know how to play the axis verry well. And even then dice can screw them over.
    The only real way would be to focus 100% on russia and get it down fast.

    Basicaly everybody here on the board uses the same axis strategy that is hard to counter, against everybody else it isnt that impossible.


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