• Over the weekend we played a game and we seemed to talk ourselves into confusion of how aircraft interact with subs in combat.  So I have 2 scenarios that I’m sure can be answered.

    First hypothetical battle does not include DD on either side.  Attacker has aircraft carrier with 2 fighters and a cruiser.  Defender has cruiser, 2 subs.  Obviously the subs have their first strike option and takes them with no hits.  Attacker rolls for cruiser and 2 fighters and gets 3 hits.  So what is the out come?  Can the defender decide to take out the cruiser with the hit from the attackers cruiser and the 2 subs remain since the other 2 hits are from fighters?  Or is the defender obligated to take a fighter hit on the cruiser and take the hit from the cruiser on one of the subs? Of course the defender did not decide to submerge.

    Second is the same above except the cruisers are now DD’s.  I gather that the planes can target the subs so long as there is a DD on the battle board.  Also, what if the DD is destroyed in the first round of combat do you continue into the 2nd round of combat as if the DD was still there or since it is gone now subs cannot be spotted so fighter hits do not count.

    Hopefully this makes sense.  I know if I just sat down and thought about it, I might be able to rationalize these concepts.  However, I would rather have the experts confirm.

    Thanks in advance for your help.

  • Moderator Official Q&A 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 '12 TripleA

    For your first scenario please see the rulebook:

    @rulebook:

    Step 3. Attacking Units Fire (Land and Sea Battles)
    Roll one die for each attacking unit with an attack value that did not fire or submerge in step 2. Roll for units with the same
    attack value at the same time. For example, roll all units with an attack value of “3” at the same time. An attacking unit scores
    a hit if you roll its attack value or less. After the attacking player has rolled for all attacking units, the defender chooses one
    unit for each hit scored and moves it behind the casualty strip. All units behind the casualty strip will return fire in step 4.

    As many hits as possible must be assigned. For instance, if a cruiser and two submarines attack a destroyer and a carrier with a
    fighter and score three hits, the defender must assign the cruiser hit to the fighter and the submarine hits to the ships. The defender
    may not assign the cruiser hit to a ship, because the submarines cannot hit the fighter and one submarine hit would be lost.

    Concerning your second scenario: In case the destoyer that supports the air units is destroyed, the air units can no longer hit the subs.

    HTH 🙂


  • Thanks HTH, and to think I got all the way to pay 16 before quitting! 😐

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    P@nther does sign all his posts HTH, but actually I think it means “Hope That Helps”.

    Being such a helpful chap as he is, it always does of course ….


  • I also have a slight question, how do you seperate cruiser hits from fighter hits? If I attack with 2 fighters and 2 cruisers vs 2 subs and 2 cruisers and in the firts roll I roll 3 hits, how can you be sure which one of the attacker hit?

    Same scenario if you attack an aircraft carrier with fighter plus 2 destroyers with destroyers and subs, how do you know which hit were made by the subs or destroyers? Can I chose to say that the sub were the ones who made the hit to force my oponent to take something other than his planes.

    Me and my friend usually just take away casualties after each group of units have hit (not according to the rule book) but if we were to play according to it, then the situation would get even worse.

  • Moderator Official Q&A 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 '12 TripleA

    @Simon98v:

    I also have a slight question, how do you seperate cruiser hits from fighter hits? If I attack with 2 fighters and 2 cruisers vs 2 subs and 2 cruisers and in the firts roll I roll 3 hits, how can you be sure which one of the attacker hit?

    The defending subs roll their surprise strikes. Your example only works if no hit was scored then.
    When the attacker rolls, just roll for the fighters first and then for the cruisers (or vice versa). The defender has to assign the hits according to the rules.

    @Simon98v:

    Same scenario if you attack an aircraft carrier with fighter plus 2 destroyers with destroyers and subs, how do you know which hit were made by the subs or destroyers? Can I chose to say that the sub were the ones who made the hit to force my oponent to take something other than his planes.

    No surprise strike here. Just roll for the different units separately. Again the defender has to assign the hits according to the rules.

    @Simon98v:

    Me and my friend usually just take away casualties after each group of units have hit (not according to the rule book) but if we were to play according to it, then the situation would get even worse.

    You are fine rolling for different units separately. As you said choosing casualties the way you do is against the rules.

    Note that the “Roll for units with the same attack value at the same time” is to simplify battles involving units acting under the same rules.
    Whenever special rules (such as subs cannot hit planes) apply - it is a good idea to roll those special units separately, if necessary.

    HTH 🙂

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    Okay, I’m really confused now…

    So, if a sub were to attack a loaded carrier and get a hit, it means that the fighters would not get a reply to the sub?  I’ve always read the rules as attacking planes cannot hit subs without a destroyer present however I thought that defending planes were able to get a defensive roll since subs would surface to attack.  I also think that the surprise attack means that any unit hit does not get to respond unless it is a sub because it is defending at the same time as the attack.

    On attack, only a destroyer from the attacking side negates the sub rule however any defending destroyer negates any attacking sub.

    Dazed and confused…

    CK

  • Moderator Official Q&A 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 '12 TripleA

    @craykirk:

    So, if a sub were to attack a loaded carrier and get a hit, it means that the fighters would not get a reply to the sub?

    Correct, as the fighters - though defending in the air - cannot hit the sub.

    @craykirk:

    I’ve always read the rules as attacking planes cannot hit subs without a destroyer present …

    Actually this is what the rules say:

    @Rulebook:

    Destroyers

    If a destroyer is in a battle, it cancels the following unit characteristics of all enemy submarines in that battle: Surprise Strike, Submersible, and Cannot Be Hit Be Air Units.

    Submarines

    Cannot Hit Air Units: When attacking or defending, submarines cannot hit air units.

    Cannot Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending, hits scored by air units cannot be assigned to submarines unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units in the battle.

    @craykirk:

    … however I thought that defending planes were able to get a defensive roll since subs would surface to attack.

    This thinking is not covered by the rules.

    @craykirk:

    I also think that the surprise attack means that any unit hit does not get to respond unless it is a sub because it is defending at the same time as the attack.

    A battleship - when only damaged by a sub’s surprise strike hit - would be able to fire back, too.

    @craykirk:

    On attack, only a destroyer from the attacking side negates the sub rule however any defending destroyer negates any attacking sub.

    See the above rule quotes.

    I am not sure if I have understood every aspect of your confusion correctly so please ask back, if anything remains unclear.

    HTH 🙂

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    Thanks…  too many years of playing the other versions, it makes sense that planes are not vulnerable to subs.  I will make sure I watch the casualties that TripleA takes however this situation doesn’t really occur very often.  Perhaps I need to re-read the faq and rules as I know subs are rather confusing.


  • Read the rules of general combat very carefully.

    Remember also, “As many hits as possible must be assigned”. (General Combat, Step 3). It clarifies here as well with an example that submarines cannot hit air.
    This essentially answers a lot of questions for you… if you had destroyers and submarines firing you’d want to seperate these out because it may be a case that the submarines score hits against a mixed force including air and you will need to know exactly what hits assign to what, according to sub/air rules.

    The presence of the destroyer takes effect at the start of the rolls… so if a destroyer disappears, submarines special abilities that would otherwise be cancelled kick in.
    This is always interesting when the carrier or battleship is the last surface ship… so it could end up being a costly casualty if the opponent has still got a surprise strike up his sleeve.
    I think this adds a lot ot the gameplay, as there are often very tough decisions to make 🙂

    Again this is all clarified in the general combat rules. Just read them carefully.

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