Excellent quote from Congressman Jim Moran



  • Terrorism is a tactic. We are not fighting terrorism. We are fighting extremism… That is why torture is so wrong. It violates our ideals. We need to be the Athens of the world, not the Sparta of the world… [we can’t win] unless you win over the hearts and minds of the people we are fighting

    Rough quote there… watching the guy on CSPAN right now.

    Exactly how I feel. We are fighting a massive public relations campaign. Terrorism is both a minimal threat and a massive threat. It is a minimal threat right now. Why? Because despite everyone’s fear of the boogyman in the closet, terrorism is an incredibly minor threat to our individual security. But, by going into Iraq, we’ve opened up a whole new door. Representative Moran talked on C-SPAN about how Europeans and Muslims from all over the world are flowing into Iraq to fight against the United States. Like the Soviet war against Afganistan, Iraq has become a training ground for terrorists. Once trained, the terrorists will wind up in places outside of Iraq.

    To put it short, Congressman Moran:

    The biggest beneficiaries of the war in Iraq are the terrorists and Iran



  • dude, this is bullshit. You dont win the enemies hearts, you shoot their hearts!!!



  • @Yanny:

    Terrorism is a tactic. We are not fighting terrorism. We are fighting extremism… That is why torture is so wrong. It violates our ideals. We need to be the Athens of the world, not the Sparta of the world… [we can’t win] unless you win over the hearts and minds of the people we are fighting

    Rough quote there… watching the guy on CSPAN right now.

    Exactly how I feel. We are fighting a massive public relations campaign. Terrorism is both a minimal threat and a massive threat. It is a minimal threat right now. Why? Because despite everyone’s fear of the boogyman in the closet, terrorism is an incredibly minor threat to our individual security. But, by going into Iraq, we’ve opened up a whole new door. Representative Moran talked on C-SPAN about how Europeans and Muslims from all over the world are flowing into Iraq to fight against the United States. Like the Soviet war against Afganistan, Iraq has become a training ground for terrorists. Once trained, the terrorists will wind up in places outside of Iraq.

    To put it short, Congressman Moran:

    The biggest beneficiaries of the war in Iraq are the terrorists and Iran

    Yes, it was us winning the hearts and minds that defeated the extremism in Germany and Japan.  If you want to see us win, you break the back of the insurgency… you say that will cause more people to take up arms?  Than those people die too.  After the utter defeat of the insurgency… and only than, can you win hearts and minds.  Until than all you are doing is cosmeticaly treating a cancer.

    How could we have won against the extremism in WW2 with your plan?  Build up Germany and Japan’s infastructure so that the whack jobs in those countries could attack us with greater strength later on?  :?



  • I’m not sure why Iraq is being compared to Germany and Japan.  Or why Muslim extremists are compared to Germans and the Japanese.  There is a world of difference her.

    Yanny - i agree with your post 100%.  Mind you, i’ve always said that the best way to defeat those using terrorism is to take a page from Jesus’ teachings - whether you believe them or not. 
    Do good to your enemies - by doing so you will pour burning coals on their heads.  It is hard to recruit someone to suicide bomb a nation that is feeding/supplying medicines to you.



  • Yes, it was us winning the hearts and minds that defeated the extremism in Germany and Japan.  If you want to see us win, you break the back of the insurgency… you say that will cause more people to take up arms?  Than those people die too.  After the utter defeat of the insurgency… and only than, can you win hearts and minds.  Until than all you are doing is cosmeticaly treating a cancer.

    How could we have won against the extremism in WW2 with your plan?  Build up Germany and Japan’s infastructure so that the whack jobs in those countries could attack us with greater strength later on?

    Apples and Oranges. We actually had a military end to achieve in WWII. Germany and Japan had centralized command and control. Al-Quaeda and friends are the exact opposite.

    Cutting off the head of the hydra does not work when two more heads spring up after each is cut off.



  • Awesome quote from him, not that I doubt you two (Yanny & CC) were already thinking the same thing.

    I might also add, in this case, you can’t fight fire with fire, everyone ends up getting burned.

    Or, “Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.”  Apparently we don’t have to remove them to obtain ignorance, so it might not be as applicable…



  • These creeps have been indoctrinated with hatred of the west for hundreds of years, there is no way in hell they are gonna start to like us, no matter what we do.

    You say if we repay them with kindness they will feel regret? Sorry, but Islam does not understand kindness, they only understand force. Kill all the fuckers, and the problem is solved.



  • Marine, go back to Parris Island… you need to go dig up your humanity that you apparently buried with a sand flea during Basic.



  • what is the word i’m looking for.  It’s when the pot calls the kettle black . . . .



  • @cystic:

    what is the word i’m looking for.  It’s when the pot calls the kettle black . . . .

    Who Me?

    I have the ultimate view of Humanity, let each achieve according to his ability.  Get teh government out of the way.  Succeed or fail based on your OWN ability, and not on your ability to milk the public teat.

    As for the enemies of the US…

    If the GOVERNMENT of a foreign nation allows it’s leaders to indiscrimiately kill others, then it is as much their fault as it is the fault of their leaders.  They should have acted to take out the nut cases in charge to prevent such a dreadful state of affairs.

    And yes, I am well aware that I have just declred open season on our own government AND people.

    Who knows, maybe a little foreign retribution might just wake up the American Sheeple.



  • NCS … i think CC talked to M36 (although i think that you miss the concept of charity and altruism in your definition of humanity).

    @M36:

    These creeps have been indoctrinated with hatred of the west for hundreds of years, there is no way in hell they are gonna start to like us, no matter what we do.

    This is wrong. The indoctrination started less than 100 years ago. The Germans tried to get the muslim population to revolt against the “west” in the colonies and the Ottoman areas that were just conquered by the Entente. There the concept of Jihad was first used in its “modern” form.
    The first “genuine” islamistic/fundamentalist group was the brotherhood of muslims, founded in Egypt in 1928.

    That is less than 100 years. And you might also now the saying “the longest travel starts with the first step”. You refuse to even consider that travel. The most harmless name i have for such behaviour is “stupid”.

    You say if we repay them with kindness they will feel regret? Sorry, but Islam does not understand kindness, they only understand force. Kill all the fuckers, and the problem is solved.

    WHY HAS THIS POST NOT BEEN DELETED?

    This is not free speech. This is calling for a crime. This is hate-speech. “Fuckers” is the most blatant insult that was ever used on this board.

    AND  YET NO CONSEQUENCES ? ? ? ?



  • @Yanny:

    Yes, it was us winning the hearts and minds that defeated the extremism in Germany and Japan.  If you want to see us win, you break the back of the insurgency… you say that will cause more people to take up arms?  Than those people die too.  After the utter defeat of the insurgency… and only than, can you win hearts and minds.  Until than all you are doing is cosmeticaly treating a cancer.

    How could we have won against the extremism in WW2 with your plan?  Build up Germany and Japan’s infastructure so that the whack jobs in those countries could attack us with greater strength later on?

    Apples and Oranges. We actually had a military end to achieve in WWII. Germany and Japan had centralized command and control. Al-Quaeda and friends are the exact opposite.

    Cutting off the head of the hydra does not work when two more heads spring up after each is cut off.

    How many of the Native Ameican heads of the Hydra did we cut off?  Or in the philipines for that matter?

    The kind of idealistic thinking that comes from your train of thought is not based in reality.  I don’t think the above measures need to be taken, but they could be taken.  They have worked, and will contiune to work.  Is it the lack of a central government that makes this so impossible?  Ok, than how about the die hard rebels that refused to surrender after the civil war?  They had no centralized government, they attacked us (in our own country no less), and they were dealt with severly.

    You need to win the war before you can change the society.  There are too many people in the middle east that don’t think that we have won yet, so they get more recruits.  Sherman’s march to the sea, the capture of geranimo, the fall of Berlin, even the 2 A-bombs on Japan were signs of a war that was won.  I have yet to hear of a war where an enemy surrendered because the occupying power built a hospital.  Rebuilding the infastructure comes after you have won the war.



  • Um, I am going to depart from my own ideology here just to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment (or maybe I am simply taking another step in a direction I am already heading, who knows…)

    A better example for what we face in the Middle East is not from the great Nation-State wars of the early 20th Century.  Let’s use a much more recent example of a Super Power and a pissant muslim nation.  Of course I mean USSR vs Afghanistan.

    The Soviet Union marched into Afghanistan, took over, installed a puppet government and “won” the war quickly.

    Then the insurgents started to act.  Helicopters shot down, convoys attacked, etc.

    After several years of sustained losses, the Soviet Union pulled out.

    Yes the radical insurgents took over Afghanistan.

    But did the Afghan Rebels follow the Soviets back to Moscow?  Was the hated Red Army under attack in their barracks after they left?  Did any car bombs or suicide bombers threaten the Kremlin or Vladivostok or Stalingrad?

    No.  The Soviets left, and the Muslims in Afghanistan said “We beat a Super Power” and went about their business INSIDE Afghanistan.

    Is there, perhaps, the potential that Iraq might work the same way?  We leave, they do what they want to within Iraq, and forget all about the hated Americans, just like the Afghani’s forgot all about the hated Russians?

    Who knows, maybe, like in Afghanistan, the winning Insurgents will get pissed off at France, Germany or Russia for not helping them ENOUGH and attack THEM 20 years from now by flying planes into one of their buildings; just like happened to the US after we didn’t help Afghanistan “enough” after the Soviet invasion…



  • @ncscswitch:

    Um, I am going to depart from my own ideology here just to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment (or maybe I am simply taking another step in a direction I am already heading, who knows…)

    A better example for what we face in the Middle East is not from the great Nation-State wars of the early 20th Century.  Let’s use a much more recent example of a Super Power and a pissant muslim nation.  Of course I mean USSR vs Afghanistan.

    The Soviet Union marched into Afghanistan, took over, installed a puppet government and “won” the war quickly.

    Then the insurgents started to act.  Helicopters shot down, convoys attacked, etc.

    After several years of sustained losses, the Soviet Union pulled out.

    Yes the radical insurgents took over Afghanistan.

    But did the Afghan Rebels follow the Soviets back to Moscow?  Was the hated Red Army under attack in their barracks after they left?  Did any car bombs or suicide bombers threaten the Kremlin or Vladivostok or Stalingrad?

    No.  The Soviets left, and the Muslims in Afghanistan said “We beat a Super Power” and went about their business INSIDE Afghanistan.

    Is there, perhaps, the potential that Iraq might work the same way?  We leave, they do what they want to within Iraq, and forget all about the hated Americans, just like the Afghani’s forgot all about the hated Russians?

    Who knows, maybe, like in Afghanistan, the winning Insurgents will get pissed off at France, Germany or Russia for not helping them ENOUGH and attack THEM 20 years from now by flying planes into one of their buildings; just like happened to the US after we didn’t help Afghanistan “enough” after the Soviet invasion…

    You bring up one interesting point.  Why are we not getting hit as hard in Afghan?  I would think that those people would have the bigger beef with us rather than the Iraqis.  First to answer to your question… we supplied the Taliban, that is why they “won” the war.  See how quickly it fell w/o a superpower backing it.

    The Taliban was not too popular in Afghan. and we were the ones who made sure they were supplied.  The same equipment that defeated the Soviets was probably used on the Northern Alliance and anyone else who got in their way.  Now we have “given them freedom” from the government we all but installed.

    Well, whatever the reason that things are not going as bad in Afghan… keep up the good work.



  • Interesting how people are accusing me of hate speech against terrorists.  :lol: :lol: :lol: Id love to hear what you would say if your friends where being blown up! terrorists are fair game, if you dont hate them, then you have serious problems.

    And Zooey, the reason Afgan was a walk in the park was because we properly utilized the element of surprise. Iraq had months of warning, who knows how many terrorists where preparing for a fight in the time space.

    And one more thing, unless the crusades only happened a hundred years ago, then the battle between Islam and the west has been going on for quite a long time.



  • @M36:

    Interesting how people are accusing me of hate speech against terrorists.  :lol: :lol: :lol: Id love to hear what you would say if your friends where being blown up! terrorists are fare game, if you dont hate them, then you have problems.

    And Zooey, the reason Afgan was a walk in the park was because we properly utilized the element of surprise. Iraq had months of warning, who knows how many terrorists where preparing for a fight in the time space.

    Marine, please define “Terrorist”.

    Also, you don;t think that Afghanistan knew we were coming?  The 82nd is good, but not good enough to secure a whole freakin country in a matter of days or even weeks.

    And um… if we were so successful in Afghanistan, where is Bin Laden?  Why do we hear about firefights along the Afghan/Pakistan border?  What happened to all those Al Queda forces that we caught flat footed in Afghanistan?  Did they escape the battle of the caves?  Did they slip across an unsecured border into Iran?  Maybe Uzbekistan?  Maybe they are in Pakistan?  Or perhaps they are just biding their time in Afghanistan…



  • How many of the Native Ameican heads of the Hydra did we cut off?  Or in the philipines for that matter?

    The kind of idealistic thinking that comes from your train of thought is not based in reality.  I don’t think the above measures need to be taken, but they could be taken.  They have worked, and will contiune to work.  Is it the lack of a central government that makes this so impossible?  Ok, than how about the die hard rebels that refused to surrender after the civil war?  They had no centralized government, they attacked us (in our own country no less), and they were dealt with severly.

    Tell me, were there more extremist Muslim terrorists before or after the invasion of Iraq?

    Conferderate militants? They had a central command and control structure… Jefferson Davis surrendered. Sure, some people didn’t listen, but neither did some Japanese militants on obscure islands in Pacific 50 years after the end of WWII. Apples and Oranges dude. Religious extremists are a whole new category here.



  • Good… Yanny has read this thread. Nothing has happened.

    • Kill the fuckers!

    • I wonder whether i should change my opinion on the mods here on the board and what i wish them for the future.

    …  Of course the two last lines have nothing to do with each other. I am only disappointed that a “personal insult” has more weight than hate-speech and calling for murder. Especially as it was not qualified to “terrorists” but aimed at all muslims:
    This board and it moderators must be supporting religious discrimiation or step in.

    I withdraw my former apology, given in
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=5553.0



  • Falk’s freedom of speech

    “You can say anything you want as long as you agree with me.”

    To not agree with falk, means it is “hate speech”.

    Yanny, the Japs were religious loons too.  Their religion of choice was shinto.  There is more similiar with the jap society and extremist muslims than there is difference.  As far as the rebels who fought after the war, and the japs isolated on the islands…  It took 50 years for the last jap to surrender.  Are you suggesting that the majority of Iraqi’s, or muslims for that matter are actively fighting our forces?  Not even close, and you know it.  They estimate the insurgency at being at most 20k people.  So that is less the 1 percent of the population of Iraq.  The Jefferson Davis thing, we captured SH.  SH’s loyalist are still fighting us, sound familiar?  How long did it take for the last state in the south to rejoin (I am not entirely sure on this one, other than it was quite a long time) the union?

    Your making things cut and dry, that are not cut and dry.  IL posted about the werewolves who fought for 2 years after the Nazis surrnedered, how was that not an “insurgency” against an occupying force.  You want to romanticize the muslim crazies by making them out to be something unique, and they are not.



  • Zooey, I have already stated the biggest difference between beating Japan and beating Al-Quaeda. Japan had a centralized command and control structure. They were able to do something called surrender. Even if we captured Osama Bin Ladin and he signed some sort of “surrender papers”, Al-Quaeda would continue on normal operations. Japan agreed to be subjugated, adopt a constitution, and all the other implications which came with it. That is not possible here.

    And again, Zooey, has the invasion of Iraq increased the quantity and quality of terrorists?

    F_alk, I am tolerating this thread because, although I disagree with some of the comments, they are (sadly) becoming legit (although misguided) opinions to be used in a debate.



  • While the point may be neither here nor there, I’d attribute the fanatical fighting spirit in the Japanese to cultural ideals, rather than religious ones.  Particularly the still resounding impact of Bushido…



  • @Yanny:

    F_alk, I am tolerating this thread because, although I disagree with some of the comments, they are (sadly) becoming legit (although misguided) opinions to be used in a debate.

    You know i have tended to agree with you Yanny - at least on this thread.
    still, F_alk has a (IMO not well made) point.

    stuff like

    These creeps have been indoctrinated with hatred of the west for hundreds of years,

    and

    Islam does not understand kindness, they only understand force. Kill all the fuckers, and the problem is solved.

    registers as hate speech on just about any radar in a civilized society.



  • Zooey, I have already stated the biggest difference between beating Japan and beating Al-Quaeda. Japan had a centralized command and control structure. They were able to do something called surrender. Even if we captured Osama Bin Ladin and he signed some sort of “surrender papers”, Al-Quaeda would continue on normal operations. Japan agreed to be subjugated, adopt a constitution, and all the other implications which came with it. That is not possible here.

    To bring up a seperate point from the command and control structure, I think it is important to realize the immense respect the emperor of Japan had at the time with the general population of Japan (although the military leaders were capable of replacing emperors).  The emperor was worshiped.  When he told the citizens of Japan to stop fighting, they did so, except for some isolated soldiers on remote islands who did not hear the word.  Had he told them to continue fighting, they no doubt would have fought to the last man, woman and child.

    While OBL has a great deal of respect among certain elements in the Middle East, I don’t think they respect him this much.  In the event we captured or killed OBL, or even if OBL renounced his actions and voluntarily surrendered, I do think AQ would continue.  I really don’t see an overall surrender happening with every terrorist group out there.



  • @Yanny:

    …although I disagree with some of the comments, they are (sadly) becoming legit (although misguided) opinions to be used in a debate.

    Calling for the death of a group of people is “becoming a a legit opinion”?
    What if i called for the dath of all moderarors of this board: Kill the fuckers ?
    (Oh, maybe you would see that as a personal insult - yet it is ok to insult one group of people (all muslims), but not another group of people (all moderators)? )

    You have seen (and locked) what happened once i called the death of some(!, and i qualified which)  USans a “beneficial” thing in response to several other calls for death?
    We had the discussion, and even Janus had agreed that calling or inciting a crime is not covered by the freedom of speech.

    Now, explain to me how and why “Kill the fuckers” would have any protection and is NOT calling for a crime?



  • I hate to tell you F_alk, but that is exactly the viewpoint of a lot of people in the United States. It’s sad and I truely believe that anyone who believes that way is ignorant and stupid, but it is not uncommon. If a comment like that came up in a thread about a different subject, then it would violate forum rules. Unfortunately, it is part of this debate. Some people just can’t get past nativism.


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