Vichy rules



  • I’ve been trying to come up with a good Vichy house rule for my playgroup (preferably one that didn’t help the axis anymore). I had an idea that the French units in any territory be neutral (after Paris fell) but would join a side when either axis or allied troops tried to land in the territory. For example on a roll of 1 or 2 the French units joined the Allies (this means they would fight the axis if they tried to land) and became “free French”, on a 3 or 4 the units joined Vichy French and would fight for Vichy France (controlled by either Italy or Germany) finally on a 5-6 the units would remain neutral and not fight either side. Vichy territory IPC’s would be spent in the south of France by one of the axis players. Free French territories could place infantry anywhere in Free French African territory. Sub Saharan Africa starts free french and southern France and Vietnam would start Vichy.
    (This house rule would require special Vichy sculpts)
    Basically this idea would place french units on a knifes edge and make some strategies a little more risky. I think this would also be coupled with an increased number of French units on the board in general.



  • If you are the Axis and you really want to get the feeling of a Vichy territory, just dont attack Southern France. You can take France and Normandy, but let the two French units in the South live, and name them Vichy. Just like in the real war, they are now hostages and cant move anywhere. Now the map look exactly like the real situation back in 1940, but without some homemade houserules. The greatest benefit will be that USA can never use the factory there, or receive the 3 IPC income. In the later part of the game you will be thankful for that


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Presumably you’d do the same thing with Normandy. Problem with that will be that Italy loses its NO if it has 2 out of 3 of the other territories.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    @Fredrico:

    I’ve been trying to come up with a good Vichy house rule for my playgroup (preferably one that didn’t help the axis anymore). I had an idea that the French units in any territory be neutral (after Paris fell) but would join a side when either axis or allied troops tried to land in the territory. […] (This house rule would require special Vichy sculpts)

    In case this is of any use to you as background information, my Global 1940 map analysis covers France in Sections 6A, 6B and 6C and describes which parts of the French colonial empire went which way as WWII progressed:

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36590.0

    Regarding the Vichy sculpts angle, you might want to use the blue French sculpts from A&A 1914.  The shade of the blue colour works decently well with the Global 1940 French sculpts, the 1914 French infantry unit is distinctive, and the generic, obsolescent-looking (by WWII standards) equipment sculpts could reflect the fact that Vichy France wasn’t exactly encouraged by Germany to modernize its armed forces.



  • Global War 1936 has a Vichy rule, and I have wanted to adapt it to G40. I like how they roll dice to determine the outcome (can change from game to game). This is what I’ve got in theory (haven’t tested it).

    If France (Paris) falls to the Germans G1 and if Southern France wasn’t attacked, the Germans can evoke a Vichy rule. S France becomes the Vichy capital and its units become the Vichy army (add 2 inf). Any French units still in Normandy surrender (removed from board), and Normandy is placed under German control (place a German roundel). The French player then rolls a dice for each remaining French territory that is also known as a “colony”.

    –-Roll 1-3 territory becomes Vichy (along with any units there), and Germany collects income (Japan collects 2 IPCs for FIC, and FIC being Vichy still allows Japan to collect the 10 IPC no). Vichy units can’t move, but will def against attacks. I have draw a V on the German roundel to depict this is a Vichy territory, and it reminds you that Germany collects the income (same for Japan w/FIC). You can swap out units if you have another color to use, or can place a roundel black side up under a french unit to say it is Vichy.

    —Roll 4-6 territory and units stays Free French (plays like normal).

    *See ships later

    Vichy territory is treated like a neutral, so even axis forces can’t move into them w/o attacking. If the Vichy capital (S France) is attacked by either side all other Vichy territories and units immediately join the other side (see ships later). So if axis attack the Vichy capital all Vichy colonies and units become Free French. If allies attack the Vichy capital all Vichy territories and units become German. If a Vichy colony is attacked, units there will def, but it doesn’t effect other Vichy territories. If the allies attack a Vichy colony and win, it is still considered liberated for the Free French.

    **Optional rule would be when a “colony” is attacked by allies you roll a dice to see if the units join the allies w/o a fight, disband, or defend as Vichy.

    –Roll 1-2 join allies (there is no battle, and units convert to Free French)
    –Roll 3 disbanded (remove from board)
    –Roll 4-6 stay Vichy and fight till the death.

    *Note the Italians can still move from N Italy to France (Paris) w/o moving through S France (they’re connected). Vichy territories count towards Italy NO’s (Germans are collecting income), and Vichy ships are not allied ships for purpose of the no allied ships in the Med NO.

    Ships: In addition the French place at set-up:
    1 dd, and 1 bb (just because), 1 tpt in sz92 (Mers-el-kebir)
    1 ss, 1 cruiser sz 87 (Dakar)

    When the Vichy rule is evoked you roll for each French ship on the board.
    —Roll 1-2 Free French (as normal)

    —Roll 3 Scuttled (remove from play)

    —Roll 4-5 Becomes Vichy, move ship to nearest Vichy territory, and it can’t move again as Vichy. Ship is neutral so both sides can move through the sz, and attack enemy ships in that sz (Vichy ships don’t participate). Will defend if directly attacked, or if adjacent Vichy territory is amphibed through its sz.

    —Roll 6 Becomes German (can move during German NCM of that turn).

    **If at any point Paris is liberated by the allies Vichy surrenders, all Vichy territories, units and ships become Free French. Who knows if there is enough Vichy ships on the board we might actually see Paris get liberated lol.

    If the Vichy capital (S France) is attacked by either side before Paris in liberated besides the territories and units joining the other side all remaining Vichy ships will re-roll to determine their fate.

    –Roll 1-2 Free French
    –Roll 3-5 Scuttled
    –Roll 6 Become German

    *As a side note if the allies attack both Paris and S France (Vichy capital) at the same time all Vichy territories and units would still turn German, and Vichy ships would still be rolled for. Similar to if Japan attacks Amur and Mongolia at the same time it would still flip all the other neutrals. If the axis see the Liberation of Paris coming they might attack Vichy S France just to force the Vichy ships to roll again so the allies don’t get them all.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    In Global 1940, this would be a huge gift to the Axis. In addition to Germany/Italy not have to risk losing units, the income becomes theirs automatically and the forces they would have used to capture the territories are free for other actions instead. So, not only are they gaining income for no risk, they are also gaining valuable time that would otherwise have to be spent to gain that income.

    The problem with rolling a die for each territory and vessel is that the dice might lean heavily in one direction. I’ve seen it happen in Global War, and it’s not pretty for the other side when it happens.

    A Vichy rule for Global would be fun, but it would really need to address the variability of the dice somehow (i.e., a maximum of X territories and Y naval forces will join the Axis, and the same maximums apply for the Allies) to prevent games from just being wholly unblanaced because of fluky rolls and also somehow balance out the benefit the Axis would get from taking territories automatically.

    Marsh



  • I think you’re right it would heavily favor the axis in G40. Axis would normally be getting the 3 territories in Europe (9 IPC) and FIC (2 IPCs) by round 2 in most cases, but wouldn’t take losses for any of them under this rule (other then Paris). The 8 IPCs in Africa/Syria would be up for grabs, and that would hurt the allies as well.

    Edit: To off set the axis advantage maybe allow the Free French to collect income from the colonies they control and spawn inf like China. Would be 1-2 inf a turn depending on what they control, and could limit it to 1 inf per territory when mobilizing them.

    Edit: Could also be: If the Free French control 3 or more territories at the beginning of their turn they get 1 inf to place at the end of their turn.

    To off set some of this maybe allow the allies to take control of Vichy territories and collect the income when they attack instead of liberating them for the Free French. If Paris is Liberated then they would again belong to the French.

    I know rolling for the ships (and territories) can go haywire, but I liked that part in GW. You have 50% odds for ships to go Vichy or get scuttled, and the allies have a 2 to 1 advantage over axis in the other half to gain ships. Maybe allow the French to go after the UK in the turn order would help (before Italy). The Free French could either attack the Italians or flee to preserve the ships they have.



  • Regardless of rules procedure, since Vichy is a pro-Axis rule, an offsetting pro-Allies Italian Co-Belligerent Army rule should be included.  When Rome falls, Italian territories (TBD) except Northern Italy become pro-Allies.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    I don’t think that would be enough. I think German units would need to be removed from the setup to balance it out. Otherwise, the extra units that should be lost taking Normandy and Southern France wind up reaching Moscow two whole turns earlier…

    Marsh



  • Well although i like the historic value of a vichy rule it makes the game a lot more random at the start.
    If you add 2 additional ships in the med a BB and Destroyer that could be allied from the start this would offset the balance in the med against italy ( although the balance is heavy in favor of the allies already ) and basicaly makes it so that even germany cannot destroy the UK ships there if a bad roll was done.

    Also historicaly Vichy allowed german and italian forces on their grounds and even allowed airbases from germany so it would be better to treat them like another minor axis ( italy ) and just allow germany and italy to move in/throught those areas but never collect income.
    This would also allow them to help defend these areas.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    @ShadowHAwk:

    Also historicaly Vichy allowed german and italian forces on their grounds and even allowed airbases from germany so it would be better to treat them like another minor axis ( italy )

    Technically, Vichy France didn’t allow such forces on its “unoccupied” territory.  From mid-1940 to late 1942, the Vichy regime only had practical jurisdiction over the so-called unoccupied zone of France (mainly the south) and the colonial empire.  Northern France and the Atlantic coast were the formal German-occupied zone, and that’s where most of the German air force and submarine bases were, along with the Atlantic Wall troops and installations.  The “unoccupied zone” was occupied in late 1942 after the Torch landings in North Africa, at which point the Vichy administration became essentially a German puppet rather than a mere collaborationist regime (if you want to draw so fine a difference).  Somewhat to its credit, however, the immediate French response to the occupation of the “unoccupied zone” was to scuttle the French fleet at Toulon to prevent it from being seized by the Germans, an action that would hardly fit the profile of an Axis minor ally.



  • @CWO:

    @ShadowHAwk:

    Also historicaly Vichy allowed german and italian forces on their grounds and even allowed airbases from germany so it would be better to treat them like another minor axis ( italy )

    Technically, Vichy France didn’t allow such forces on its “unoccupied” territory.  From mid-1940 to late 1942, the Vichy regime only had practical jurisdiction over the so-called unoccupied zone of France (mainly the south) and the colonial empire.  Northern France and the Atlantic coast were the formal German-occupied zone, and that’s where most of the German air force and submarine bases were, along with the Atlantic Wall troops and installations.  The “unoccupied zone” was occupied in late 1942 after the Torch landings in North Africa, at which point the Vichy administration became essentially a German puppet rather than a mere collaborationist regime (if you want to draw so fine a difference).  Somewhat to its credit, however, the immediate French response to the occupation of the “unoccupied zone” was to scuttle the French fleet at Toulon to prevent it from being seized by the Germans, an action that would hardly fit the profile of an Axis minor ally.

    I agree that france wasnt a really ally it did allow german forces on some of its colonies ( syria if im correct ) might be some others. German forces where not officialy occupying those countries but where allowed transit rights. Not completely neutral but more axis favored.
    Also note that the french where not all that happy about their fleet being destroyed by the UK battlefleet.
    The UK actualy invaded various french collonies to prevent there use by axis forces, if the french where true neutral at that point the UK/Us would not have bothered with that.

    But these political situations are hard to properly put on the board and keep the board playable, there are already various points where the political situation does not reflect reality just for the sake of gameplay or balance. All neutrals swithing side globaly is silly, brazil was neutral untill 1943, Persia was not pro allies ( only switched after the UK/Russia invaded the country and forced it to be pro allies )

    And russia wasnt really allied with the western powers, they fought a common enemy but would not allow allied units on their soil at all ( some minor exceptions )


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    @ShadowHAwk:

    But these political situations are hard to properly put on the board and keep the board playable, there are already various points where the political situation does not reflect reality just for the sake of gameplay or balance.

    Yes, quite true.  The OOB game, in fact, more or less represents a fictional scenario in which France continues to fight as an Allied power (although a severely weakened one) after the occupation of its homeland territory.  That’s actually what Churchill was trying to convince France to do in June 1940 as its situation crumbled, but without success.  Giving France an improved ability to fight as an Allied power in the game, using its colonial empire as a base of operations, might be an interesting thing to try as either a supplement or as an alternative to a Vichy house rule.


  • 2018 2017

    Vichy didn’t really have a big effect on the war’s outcome and it was a brief, historical anomaly.

    If you need to simulate this, I think that the rules that give the Axis the option of either taking over Southern France (ending the Vichy scenario) or leaving it as the only French European territory (losing 3 income forever) could be offset by some rules that paralyze the French cruiser and destroyer in the med (and or the infantry and artillery, for example.)

    Like people keep saying, the Axis don’t really need any help.  That’s why I created some free French rules to make France a bit more like China with an ongoing resistance.  If we wanted to make those rules offsetting, the Vichy French could become a passive, micro pro-Axis power (with 2 ships and 2 land units, for example) and could even fight with the Free French…I didn’t want to give the Free French the full palette of units just the very basic stuff that mirrors what it already has left in the OOB setup.

    Free France/Minor Allies Mod

    After Paris falls, France has no IPCs.    On France’s turn, if though it does not have a capital, it still collects income

    Without its capital, France does not purchase units as a normal country.  It may purchase only four unit types; Infantry, Cruiser, Destroyer, Transport.

    These units represent the Free French and Free Polish, Norwegian, Danish and other naval forces coming together to fight alongside the Allies.

    Infantry may be placed as only as follows;
    1)  original territory must have been French at beginning of French turn.
    2)  one per listed region per turn.  Not one per territory.

    Maghreb (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia)
    Sub-saharan Africa (FWA, FCA, FEA)
    French Indochina
    Madagascar
    Southern France
    Western France
    New Hebrides
    Syria
    Madagascar

    Ships must be placed as follows:

    1)  Adjacent SZ to a original, French controlled, territory
    2)  1 ship per SZ per turn

    Possible Sea Placement Territories;

    Oran/Morocco;  SZ 91
    Lorient/Normandy Bordeaux; SZ 105
    FWA; SZ 87
    New Hebrides SZ 53
    Toulon/South France  SZ 93
    Madagascar; SZ 72

    1)  If an ally or Free French liberate an originally French territory, it becomes French at all times.  Other Allies can no longer recapture French territory in order to get its income for themselves.
    2)  If France takes an Axis or Pro Allied territory, it gains the income.  (it can never place units there however). 
    3)  If Paris is liberated, France immediately gains the NO and places the units.
    4)  If Paris is liberated, it immediately returns to having all the rules of a normal power, as it did before, and cannot place in the colonies.  The only exception is that it may place one infantry it purchased this turn on each of France, Normandy or Southern france.  At this point, all of the earned French IPCs that were protected are again capable of being captured.



  • @Fredrico:

    I had an idea that the French units in any territory be neutral (after Paris fell)

    In case you ask me, I totally agree with that part, man…
    And this should not be a special rule to France only, it should be a common rule to any player that lose his capital.

    When you capital is taken, all your unoccupied territories and colonies become true neutrals. Period.

    UK and US wants to land in by now neutral Morocco ? Then they must combat move in and fight.

    Rome get taken by US, with both by now neutral Italian and still at war German units in Northern Italy ? Now that makes Northern Italy a contestet area, and I figure that the Italian units there must roll defense dice against the present Germans, just like they rolled against the invading US troops a second before.

    But for this to work we must skip the silly and historically not very correct OOB rule that trigger all true neutrals around the globe to declare war on you


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