Pearl Harbor

I recently tried a play into Pearl while attempting to make a strong hold in the Aleutian Islands.  It was not successful.  We wanted to shuck units from Japan into the Aleutians to make a heavy push into Western US.

The Big problem was we spread out way too much.  The US was able to destroy the Aleutian force (2 fully loaded AC and about 3 smaller ships) we brought from Japan and we came in too light to take out everything in Pearl leaving a single loaded AC just outside of the SZ.  While the main failure of the plan was splitting the navy making it too easy to destroy, I believe any attack on the Hawaiian Fleet  makes the Philippines much harder than it needs to be if it can even be taken at all.  Not to mention the possible loss of ships.

To make a Pearl attack successful and worth while I would recommend coming in with undeniable force and still take out the Philippines  to take away the US bonus.  In my opinion Japan’s Navy is better suited towards putting pressure on the mainland while controlling bases enabling them to quickly return to SZ 6 if needed and quickly capturing the money islands.

Overall I just don’t see what the value of occupying the Hawaiian SZ.  What is next?  The US will likely respond by bolstering the navy in the west giving them near supremacy.  Now you are stuck with two fleets staring at each other and other obligations forgone.

Fun Topic :lol:

This was tried in a game twice. I don’t really need to elaborate too much on the results. Japan won the Hawaii attack. The main painful effect was that the US was at 72 IPC on the 2nd round. The math here should explain it all.
Purchases went like this: AC, 2 ftrs, 2 TT, 2 inf, 2 arm, 1 art. Then 6 bombers. Alternate this each turn. Basically this came to bear on whatever side the US wanted for the rest of the game the player actually alternated this for 4 turns. The Japanese navy just couldn’t keep up. The fleet could never move off Phillipines and Hawaii wasn’t secured properly. The J1 attack tends to confuse the Japan player more than helps.

Not sure if this is what you are implying but units cannot move from Aleutian Islands to Alaska, as they are islands.  We played this wrong for many games…one of my new tricks is to stick Japanese guys mid game there since it breaks a bonus and requires transports to take back.

Back to PH, wrecking the fleet there sure is fun, but the retal isn’t.   Some people have recently laid out a few tricks to protect your capital ships (having a DD survive the combat leaves a screen at SZ 26, but this means sacrificing a few planes instead), which if successful, might leave the US doubting as to its next move.

Taking Hawaii on J1 is a longshot, so the way that my opponent usually does this one is J1 kill SZ 26 fleet, J2 take Hawaii proper, J3 land a bunch of Japanese planes on Hawaii so that its virtually impossible to take back.   As soon as you hold the Hawaii island space, his planes cant land there but they could land on Wake or Midway.

All of this is good stuff.  However, except for the fact that Hawaii is a VC and an NO, this move is sort of a strategic dead end.   You can hold Hawaii for a while, but it will be at the cost of power elsewhere.  America will get pissed off, but in the Global game, that just means that his objective is clear;  destroy Japan early and often with all you’ve got.

Benefits;

1. America is weakened and on its back foot
2. They can’t do much to stop you on J1

Disadvantages;

1. You cannot take America.  Threatening it is more powerful than taking it.
2. You will not likely take the Spice Islands, China or India this game (in good time), so your $$ is going to be really weak for most of the game.
3.  The ships America lost (2 dd 2 sub 1 tran 1 cruiser 1 bb?) are junk.  The ships you may lose are the cream of your irreplaceable fleet.
4. your air can only go 1 direction and east isn’t a good choice.
5. the transition on this move is usually to attack ANZAC next, which is even more out of position for Japan and difficult to do if they haven’t spread out foolishly.  Then, you’ll be 3 turns from home with the Americans about to cut you off…

To go along with the strengths of the global war; If the US chooses to purchase entirely in  the pacific, Germany has several options.  Our games J1 DOW is pretty much an inevitability, but Pearl is rarely done for the reasons above.  With well coordinated attacks Japan will be making $70 per turn and more every time ($137 is my personal best).

I love to bait that big fleet close enough to my mainland planes by dancing around with the bases to the point of madness.  If we are successful in baiting their large fleet into a winnable fight the pacific can be free of US capital ships.  With all of the money that you have made it is an easy pivot to transport up and go into the weakly defend USA.

I’ve yet to try it, but Pearl itself doesn’t seem like a particularly bad idea with a J1 DoW:

J1: Parking 2 carriers off the coast of Wake allows you to commit 4 aircraft and relatively little else to the initial attack. The Caroline carrier can still land the fighters necessary for hitting the Philippines, and you’ve still got plenty of aircraft to hit Yunnan, Hunan and Kwangtung.

On the J2: Any American counter attack can be destroyed. The aircraft from the 2 Wake island carriers can hit the Hawaii SZ and land in the Marshall Islands, 4 additional aircraft from Japan can also hit the SZ and land on the carriers, all escorted by most of the rest of Japan’s fleet staged in Japan or Carolines on J1. 3 Transports built on J1 to threaten the island itself. 2 Transports, a loaded CV, and the Japanese fleet that was used to destroy the Philippine ships can be used to take the money islands - potentially with a 3rd transport depending on what you did with it.

YG, you’re only looking at the initial attack. How are you going to turn it into a win?

Marsh

@Young:

Why not converge as much Japanese navy that can reach into the Hawaii sea zone, with the American ships already there (they’re neutral powers after all). America wouldn’t be able to attack US1, the American ships wouldn’t be able to escape far, and America can only build 3 units off San Francisco US1, leaving them sitting ducks for a J2 attack (I call it a crowbar)… anyone care to do the math on that?

I think you’re forgetting that the American ships can retreat to the coast of San Francisco and, without the use of the Hawaiian naval base, the Japanese ships are out of range. On J2 you could potentially take Hawaii, but America can block that with a destroyer off the coast of Midway if they’re clever. By J3 you can certainly take Hawaii… but by that point America has had a couple of turns to build, you’re outside the reach of your land based air, you don’t have the backing of the SE Asian economy, and the British, ANZAC and Chinese are all looking to put a knife in your back.

I’ve tried it but wouldn’t do it again. I eventually held Hawaii and got my capital ships repaired in place, J3 I think.

Then you’ve put all that shipping into something that only delivers 6IPC while killing an additional 3 warships + a TT. Then your SZ19 + SZ33 fleet don’t have dominion over ANZAC and the UK in the Java sea and you can really only claim one money island per turn or suicide a TT per island - they might take it back.

Specifically with the proposed attack, one strat bomber + one cruiser is far, far too weak to take down the Prince of Wales (UK BB). There’s a significant chance of it living and then repairing itself UK1. Better to hit it hard with 2SBs + cruiser + fighter (Formosa). That way you have a significant chance of only taking one hit and something like a 10% chance of getting it with no loss.

@Young:

Why not converge as much Japanese navy that can reach into the Hawaii sea zone, with the American ships already there (they’re neutral powers after all). America wouldn’t be able to attack US1, the American ships wouldn’t be able to escape far, and America can only build 3 units off San Francisco US1, leaving them sitting ducks for a J2 attack (I call it a crowbar)… anyone care to do the math on that?

I was going to say that the USA can then converge their entire USAF on your fleet but that assumes they can attack you. However, the USA can move its Philippines two ships within range (perhaps they might be picked off by other Japanese forces). Let’s look at it:

USA SZ26 has: 2Cruisers, 2DD, BB, sub, CV, up to 5 fighters including the scramble.
IJN has: 3CV, 6planes, 3DD, sub, Cruiser, BB.

Looks to be a favourable attack (92% +31TUV swing) and more favourable when you can throw in some more forces from SZ6 J2.

But the USN can just as easily retreat to SZ10, buy a CV and fly fighters to it which means the IJN needs to have already bought reinforcements J1. USA get to see the reinforcements which can possibly be brought in before needing to buy anything. Fighters/tacs bought in Central or Eastern USA can help support the attack BTW so long as they can land on a CV.

If I was playing USA against this move, I’d move the Philippines ships to SZ54, buy a CV and 2 subs in SZ10, a few tacs and retreat to SZ10. The IJN would need to bug out and couldn’t reach either the Carolines or Japan. Presumably they could still take Hawaii with planes and a suiciding TT from Japan, but it could be taken back so easily. In fact, I’d be inclined to use the SZ26 TT to take the 2 inf off Hawaii towards the Money islands via SZ54.

Sure, there is still some theoretical risk that Japan will declare on USA but not UK/ANZAC but that is such a weak move that if Japan do it, it’s a victory in itself.

A stronger move for Japan might be to move a smaller fleet to SZ25 off Midway and end with one to three TTs in SZ6. At least the IJN are still within one turn of SZ6. Doing it that way threatens Hawaii because the planes on the CVs can support the land assault and only risks transports really. USA still need to respond in some way and probably will need to do a naval build up in SZ10. Something I don’t want to do US1.

Hmm, I’ve been struggling with my Japanese opening at sea. I think going through this has been helpful. If Japan can hold the USA in SZ10, that is good for Germany as well as Japan.

@Amalec:

I think you’re forgetting that the American ships can retreat to the coast of San Francisco and, without the use of the Hawaiian naval base, the Japanese ships are out of range. On J2 you could potentially take Hawaii, but America can block that with a destroyer off the coast of Midway if they’re clever. By J3 you can certainly take Hawaii… but by that point America has had a couple of turns to build, you’re outside the reach of your land based air, you don’t have the backing of the SE Asian economy, and the British, ANZAC and Chinese are all looking to put a knife in your back.

Yes.

But I’d already written the above.

Long time stalker, first time poster.

My group has played a few games with a PH.  My favorite is below (I think this is similar to what Amalec describes):

• SS, DD, 2ftr, 2tac to 26.  Need to take out all navy here.  This fight looks good with or without scramble; US scrambling here is on average trading fighters with Japan.
• NCM BB, 2CV to 31 (around Wake Is.).  Land planes here, replenish any lost from Japan.
• NCM DD as blocker to 26 to block counter attack.

With this PH, I can still take Philippines, Borneo, FIC, take out the UK battleship, and hit other standard J1 targets, and take rest of money islands on J2.

I really don’t like trying to take Hawaii.  It uses up a bunch of units that you need elsewhere for a successful J1.  It brings the fight closer to the US, and that’s a losing battle for Japan.  You can’t hold it, and the few IPCs it gets you aren’t worth it.  It’s basically the London of the Pacific; even if the Axis can take it, it’s so close to the US that it’s hard to hold.  At least with London you get a capital and an IC.  But I digress.  By landing in 31, there’s not as much need for a naval base since you’re 1 move away from the Carolines.  I don’t like the 3 transport buy with this opener either; theres on need to threaten a Hawaii you don’t want to take, and I think this play is mutually exclusive with a J4 India crush (I don’t think your remaining navy can’t prevent blockers UK from going up), so I prefer the IC.

The reason I like I like doing PH as a part of my J1 is because it uses a lot of units that I didn’t find myself using much on J1 and J2.  You take out a few US units without giving up much; not a huge swing IPC-wise, but it helps.   It keeps US away from Hawaii on US1 because Japan can hit 26 with a lot of material on J2.  On the receiving end, as the US, I’ve never felt weaker on US1 than after this,  On J2, the fleet in 31 can move to the Carolines and be useful/projecting power again.

The downsides as I see it are that the DD blocker you need could be used on the 50/50 attack vs the DD/trans on Anzac J1 (and it is nice when that battle goes well!).  Keeping nearly so much IPC in the middle of the pacific for a turn probably gives some opportunities for India or China; we couldn’t find much though; even with 4 planes in the middle of the pacific, that still leaves, what, 15 fighters/tacs for Asia?  India and China have had a hard time being too aggressive against that, but they can probably get a transport kill you take the money islands J2 since it’s tough to adequately defend everything.  Finally, on the actual PH itself, if US scrambles there’s a ~17% chance Japan straight up looses this battle and the US doesn’t take the cruiser as a casualty, so Japan can’t put up the DD blocker in NCM; I think that would end up devastating for Japan.since SZ31 could get hit hard.

Anyway, this is my favorite J1 because it maximizes using what Japan has on the board.  I think there are a lot of great arguments against a J1, but I say if you’re gonna J1, J1 big.

@zergxies:

Long time stalker, first time poster.

My group has played a few games with a PH.  My favorite is below (I think this is similar to what Amalec describes):

• SS, DD, 2ftr, 2tac to 26.  Need to take out all navy here.  This fight looks good with or without scramble; US scrambling here is on average trading fighters with Japan.
• NCM BB, 2CV to 31 (around Wake Is.).  Land planes here, replenish any lost from Japan.
• NCM DD as blocker to 26 to block counter attack.

I think this is better than moving your fleet to occupy SZ26. I have one question though: If the USA scrambles out of Hawaii, why would you replenish losses from Japan? The absolute maximum they can get past your blocker is 1 SB 1 tac 3 fighters. The second CV is needed when they can throw in a couple more fighters from Hawaii. You could use the Cruiser, BB and 1 CV and 2 fighters. If you also take Wake Island, that keeps out 2 more fighters and allows you to take the hit on the CV before the fighters. I guess the problem with taking Wake is that it robs either Philippines from its second TT or Borneo.

And what is the problem you are referring to that you can’t use the SZ33 DD to hit the ANZAC DD? SZ6 starts with 2DDs which cover your attacks.

@simon33:

I think this is better than moving your fleet to occupy SZ26. I have one question though: If the USA scrambles out of Hawaii, why would you replenish losses from Japan? The absolute maximum they can get past your blocker is 1 SB 1 tac 3 fighters. The second CV is needed when they can throw in a couple more fighters from Hawaii. You could use the Cruiser, BB and 1 CV and 2 fighters. If you also take Wake Island, that keeps out 2 more fighters and allows you to take the hit on the CV before the fighters. I guess the problem with taking Wake is that it robs either Philippines from its second TT or Borneo.

If USA scrambles, I think you could get away with a fewer fighter or 2.  But keep in mind Anzac can hit SZ31 with its 3  fighters and land on Wake to mop up damaged units.  I like playing a little safer here especially b/c of the tough order-of-loss decisions that would have to made if the US attacked.  I’ve played around with taking Wake, but ultimately decided it wasn’t worth a big risk on the Philippines or delaying the IPCs in the money islands.

@simon33:

And what is the problem you are referring to that you can’t use the SZ33 DD to hit the ANZAC DD? SZ6 starts with 2DDs which cover your attacks.

Good question - I use 1 of those Japan DDs in PH, the 2nd Japan DD is the Hawaii blocker, and the DD from the Carolines moves to SZ42 (Java) as a blocker to prevent India’s navy from taking out my Borneo transport.  When taking out the UK BB in 37, I bring my Formosa fighter, 2 SBR, and CA, and I lose the fighter if the BB hits.  That keeps naval units in 37 and 42, keeping my Borneo transport safe, and giving me a good shot at the remaining 3 money islands on J2.  Maybe that’s overly complicated and there’s another way of accomplishing this I haven’t seen though.  This entire opener is built around giving Japan those islands and the economy it needs to win in a J1 scenario; it does mean no extra DD for the 50/50 on Anzac though.

I have done PH multiple times, but it is to reduce the US fleet, not to take Hawaii. You need a dd to survive battle so the US San Fran fleet can’t counter attack. I also like to take Wake and have ftrs ready to replace losses if they scramble, and/or try a combined US/Anz air attack.

This move is to take out the US Hawaiian fleet, and threatens both Hawaii and Anz (not to take Hawaii). It forces the US to build Pac because the US feels weak, giving Germany some time, even w/J1 attack. You are killing the equivalent to a US entire buy, so it sets them back a round or two. You can still do all the normal J1 stuff, but it takes till J3 to get all the money isles. I normally buy 3 transports because I like to plop down an IC on FIC and sometimes Kwangtung J2 to keep the China battle going, and eventually take India (while the US is rebuilding).

How can the Borneo TT be hit if the Cruiser is blocking SZ37 and Philippines is taken?

@simon33:

How can the Borneo TT be hit if the Cruiser is blocking SZ37 and Philippines is taken?

Can’t the UK DD in SZ39 go SZ39 -> SZ41 -> SZ42 -> SZ43?  Doesn’t that get 3 moves because of India naval base?

If I’m the UK, I’d definitely consider that move since it makes it impossible to take all 4 islands J2.

Anzac then has to decide if it wants to sacrifice a TT, 2 ground units, and its 3 fighters to deny Japan the money islands bonus by landing on Java J2.  Even then, Japan can hit with 1 inf 1 art (from Phil), 1 ftr + 1 tac from SZ35, and the 2 strategic bombers that landed in Siam after destroying the UK BB J1.  That’s still good odds for Japan.

So based on this, I think it’s not unrealistic to have Japan get the islands J2 and still set back the US a little with PH.

Moving the whole fleet to Pearl Harbor seems to be a good way for the Japanese to fail in Mainland Asia and the Money Islands.  I personally prefer a less aggressive option of stacking a fleet in the Carolines which makes the Allies hesitant about a potential raid in Pear Harbor or Sydney.  A small mistake by the Allies and you can wreak havoc.  If they play perfectly, you still get sail into the Money Islands on J2.  The only weakness is that it takes an extra round to project power towards India and China.

@zergxies:

@simon33:

How can the Borneo TT be hit if the Cruiser is blocking SZ37 and Philippines is taken?

Can’t the UK DD in SZ39 go SZ39 -> SZ41 -> SZ42 -> SZ43?  Doesn’t that get 3 moves because of India naval base?

Right, yes. I think in the past I’ve been inclined to defend the Borneo SZ with the Carolines fleet rather than put down a blocker which can die easily.

I guess that’s the other problem with hitting Wake Is. You can’t then claim all the money islands J2. Hmm, USA really shouldn’t scramble then. If they scramble you can possibly avoid bringing in the second carrier.

Tef - with a BB and 2 loaded carriers off Wake and a DD in SZ26, there is no attack the US can make turn 1.  I expect the US to build in SZ10.  Pull back to the Carolines J2 and make your next move from there.  It is not advantageous to Japan to be trading units in SZ26.  Your objective is to expand quickly, and the money lies West, not in Hawaii.   If I’m the US and I see you take Hawaii, I laugh and smash your navy the next turn and take it back.  US can keep doing that all game, it’s Japan that needs to spend its IPCs elsewhere winning the game in China and India.

As to how it helps you win - I think a turn 1 PH - and then falling back to your areas of strength - can take out some key units and get a favorable IPC trade while still achieving Japan’s main J1 goals.  Taking the money islands J2 turns Japan into an economic powerhouse.  Anyway just my take on things, there are plenty of ways to play the game (and I’m sure I haven’t found most of them!).  Notably I’m assuming more-standard play on the Europe side - I haven’t played many games where G doesn’t invade Russia until round 4.