Global War 1940 2nd ed.

But I only raised the cruiser cost to 10 instead of 9 with my new cruiser values so how does
Cruiser C9 A7 D7 roll 3 or less hit goes towards a plane for every round of combat

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Yes if I have this right. For every round of combat for a cruiser your saying is
D12. A8 D8 any roll of 4 or less can put hit towards a plane. ?

Not exactly.
I imply that every “4” or less means a hit for a Cruiser.
Then, gives to A/D Cruiser a green “D12” die and a blue sky “D12” die.
Now you can totally play according to your thematic that Cruiser were good at AA but not only against aircraft. Cruiser still have a few big turrets.
For instance, assumed blue die is for aircraft and the green die for any unit.
Each time a Cruiser is rolling, you roll the 2 dice.
Let’s suppose 4 cases:
A) blue and green rolled both “5” or up. No casualty.
B) blue is “4” or less, green is “5” or up. Owner’s have to choose an aircraft.
C) blue is “5” or up, green is “4” or less. Owner’s choose anyone unit as casualty.
D) blue is “4” or less, green is “4” or less. Meaning two hits.
Owner’s have to choose an aircraft AND choose another unit as casualty.

You can even apply a similar feature of 2 D12 dice for Battleship.
Assuming BB are A9 D9 C15 2hits, just split: @4 vs aircraft, then @5 for any unit.

And because Cruiser are cheaper than Battleship, you get a better AA capacity for your bucks with Cruiser: 6 Cruiser giving 6AA@4 (10 IPCs) vs 4 Battleship giving 4AA@4 (15 IPCs), same way than Shore bombardment are better with Cruiser.

@baron-Münchhausen said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Yes if I have this right. For every round of combat for a cruiser your saying is
D12. A8 D8 any roll of 4 or less can put hit towards a plane. ?

Not exactly.
I imply that every “4” or less means a hit for a Cruiser.
Then, gives to A/D Cruiser a green “D12” die and a blue sky “D12” die.
Now you can totally play according to your thematic that Cruiser were good at AA but not only against aircraft. Cruiser still have a few big turrets.
For instance, assumed blue die is for aircraft and the green die for any unit.
Each time a Cruiser is rolling, you roll the 2 dice.
Let’s suppose 4 cases:
A) blue and green rolled both “5” or up. No casualty.
B) blue is “4” or less, green is “5” or up. Owner’s have to choose an aircraft.
C) blue is “5” or up, green is “4” or less. Owner’s choose anyone unit as casualty.
D) blue is “4” or less, green is “4” or less. Meaning two hits.
Owner’s have to choose an aircraft AND choose another unit as casualty.

You can even apply a similar feature of 2 D12 dice for Battleship.
Assuming BB are A9 D9 C15 2hits, just split: @4 vs aircraft, then @5 for any unit.

Ok I see what your saying now. But I don’t agree totally on a Battleship getting close to the same for hitting a plane. BB didnt shot down that many planes and besides there 's not that many in game. Maybe go with @3 plane and @6 ship.
I like this.
Cruiser C9 A@3 Blue die plane hit A@4 red die Ship hit.
BB C15 A@3 Blue die plane hit A@6 red die ship hit.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

@baron-Münchhausen said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Yes if I have this right. For every round of combat for a cruiser your saying is
D12. A8 D8 any roll of 4 or less can put hit towards a plane. ?

Not exactly.
I imply that every “4” or less means a hit for a Cruiser.
Then, gives to A/D Cruiser a green “D12” die and a blue sky “D12” die.
Now you can totally play according to your thematic that Cruiser were good at AA but not only against aircraft. Cruiser still have a few big turrets.
For instance, assumed blue die is for aircraft and the green die for any unit.
Each time a Cruiser is rolling, you roll the 2 dice.
Let’s suppose 4 cases:
A) blue and green rolled both “5” or up. No casualty.
B) blue is “4” or less, green is “5” or up. Owner’s have to choose an aircraft.
C) blue is “5” or up, green is “4” or less. Owner’s choose anyone unit as casualty.
D) blue is “4” or less, green is “4” or less. Meaning two hits.
Owner’s have to choose an aircraft AND choose another unit as casualty.

You can even apply a similar feature of 2 D12 dice for Battleship.
Assuming BB are A9 D9 C15 2hits, just split: @4 vs aircraft, then @5 for any unit.

Ok I see what your saying now. But I don’t agree totally on a Battleship getting close to the same for hitting a plane. BB didnt shot down that many planes and besides there 's not that many in game. Maybe go with @3 plane and @6 ship.
I like this.
Cruiser C9 A@3 Blue die plane hit A@4 red die Ship hit.
BB C15 A@3 Blue die plane hit A@6 red die ship hit.

I might add:
You can even apply a similar feature of 2 D12 dice for Battleship.
Assuming BB are A9 D9 C15 2hits, just split: @4 vs aircraft, then @5 for any unit.

And because Cruiser are cheaper than Battleship, you get a better AA capacity for your bucks with Cruiser: 6 Cruiser giving 6AA@4 (10 IPCs) vs 4 Battleship giving 4AA@4 (15 IPCs), same way than Shore bombardment are better with Cruiser.

I suggested you keep the 10 IPCs because it provides a wider range of cost and 10 is easy to calculate. And all 10 IPCs aircraft may be lower in the cost structure, in that case.

The other die is not directly at ship. It is opened up to the owner, as a regular combat roll.
It is to open up the possibility of using cheaper aircraft for casualties. So, in that case, the owner may decide between cheaper unit, such as DD, Subs and aircraft…

Once this said, It seems interesting that the main number for hitting aircraft during all combat rounds is “4” for Fighters (at least on defense), Cruiser and Battleship. Less things to remember…

But you may prefer that number be “3”, making defending Fg special with “4”.

Ok I Just may try this in games coming up with out changing the plane values yet.

Cruiser C10 A@4 plane blue die A@4 for any unit defenders choice
BB C15 A@4 plane blue die A@5 for any unit defenders choice
All figs, Tacs and Dive bombers C10

I’ll run this by the guys see what they think.

Baron

You got any stats on how many planes were shot down by Battleships ?
Anybody ?
CWO ?

I know Cruisers shot down 5000 planes.
I’m still thinking of going this way
CR C10 @4 blue die plane @3 red die any ship
BB C15 @3 blue die plane @6 red die any ship
All planes C10.
That’s it. This will include one round of DF.
My concern is CR and a BB can get 4 hits in 1 round. I know the % are lowered but concern is if a battle gets diced for one side that will just kill ships and planes to fast.

@SS-GEN
I know that many BB turrets were converted for anti-aircraft purpose.
All Powers understood after 1941 how aircraft were an important factor to consider in naval combat.

Whether you choose between @4 or @3 is more a designer decision.
As long as you keep the same coloured D12 to treat as AA, you will be testing a new mechanics.

It will be a judgement call based on ease of playtest application or the contrary.

Giving 2 different dice colour, does confuse or add details without confusion?

@baron-Münchhausen

Yes we will test it. I made the final decision.
Why not. Both Ships were doing simultaneous A and D so 2 dice make sense.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

@baron-Münchhausen

Yes we will test it. I made the final decision.
Why not. Both Ships were doing simultaneous A and D so 2 dice make sense.

So let me know how the playtest go.
No need to change too much at a time
This double dice capacity boost Cruiser and BB but they don’t get the versatility of aircraft.
And historically these units were good against air and sea. So assuming numbers are quite balanced, the main question is about this double dice procedure. Is it playable or confusing? Is it slowing the pace or keeping the game flow?

IMO, this has precedence over other historical accuracy matter.

Looking at this some more the Cruiser will be a pretty strong ship due to being able to take 2 hits on a plane and a ship. Its like a 2 hit ship for damage now. The BB can get 4 hits before its sunk. Did you consider those numbers ?
Is there a way to config in the extra hits before ships are sunk.
CR C10 A4 .48 pl A3 .36 ship = .84 but have to consider it can hit 2 pieces. 1.68 ?
BB C15 A4 .56 pl A5 .70 ship = 1.26 1 Dam A3 .42 pl A4 .56 ship = .98 2 hits 2.24 ?
My BB goes to A6D6 when damaged.
But also the BB can hit 4 pieces before its sunk. These 2 ships will be way to strong on first round of combat maybe and at least in my game you can retreat your planes after 1 round of combat if there’s a lot of plane kills. Would not be uncommon to lose 4 planes after 1 round of combat. 2 in a DF and 2 in naval battle if there’s 1 BB and CR. I guess will have to see. I will have to do some Naval test battles.
How these look if we figure out a new numbers table for 2 AD dice ships ?
CR A3 pl A3 ship
BB A4 pl A4 ship Damaged A3 pl A3 ship

Maybe with the CR A4 A4 BB A4 A5 may not work with plane C10 ?
I can see planes Costing 8 or 9. At least Naval Figs and Dive Bombers.

Still will try it games. Just got to come up with a value that we are all OK with for starters.

Guys are concerned about over kill to.

@SS-GEN

This is an added level of complexity and probably not worth it, but instead of all plane hits resulting in a kill, I mean planes that get hit, maybe one or some could just neutralize. Doesn’t kill the plane but the plane can’t take place in the combat.

Just a thought : )

@barnee said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

@SS-GEN

This is an added level of complexity and probably not worth it, but instead of all plane hits resulting in a kill, I mean planes that get hit, maybe one or some could just neutralize. Doesn’t kill the plane but the plane can’t take place in the combat.

Just a thought : )

That’s kinda in the game when a Carrier is damaged and you can only launch or land 1 plane in combat or non combat.
Another way as your saying is a plane is damaged and can’t fight. But mostly when a fig is hit it’s going down.

I don’t think it would be to complex. It’s like anytime you roll for a CR and/or BB you just use 2 colored dice and just say this color dice is for plane hits.
I really like this idea of 2 dice. If need be just lower dice numbers for AD.
It may still not work but then maybe have to lower C of planes. That is another test option I will look at too.
I did play test just CR at AD4 and can take a hit towards a plane every round of combat. Now that was cool because as we discussed in another thread topic it makes you really think about your planes and plus all planes can retreat after 1 round of combat.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Looking at this some more the Cruiser will be a pretty strong ship due to being able to take 2 hits on a plane and a ship. Its like a 2 hit ship for damage now. The BB can get 4 hits before its sunk. Did you consider those numbers ?
Is there a way to config in the extra hits before ships are sunk.
CR C10 A4 .48 pl A3 .36 ship = .84 but have to consider it can hit 2 pieces. 1.68 ?
BB C15 A4 .56 pl A5 .70 ship = 1.26 1 Dam A3 .42 pl A4 .56 ship = .98 2 hits 2.24 ?
My BB goes to A6D6 when damaged.
But also the BB can hit 4 pieces before its sunk. These 2 ships will be way to strong on first round of combat maybe and at least in my game you can retreat your planes after 1 round of combat if there’s a lot of plane kills. Would not be uncommon to lose 4 planes after 1 round of combat. 2 in a DF and 2 in naval battle if there’s 1 BB and CR. I guess will have to see. I will have to do some Naval test battles.
How these look if we figure out a new numbers table for 2 AD dice ships ?
CR A3 pl A3 ship
BB A4 pl A4 ship Damaged A3 pl A3 ship

Maybe with the CR A4 A4 BB A4 A5 may not work with plane C10 ?
I can see planes Costing 8 or 9. At least Naval Figs and Dive Bombers.

Still will try it games. Just got to come up with a value that we are all OK with for starters.

The reaction about “overkill” is natural.
But the statistics might show that is less scary than first thought.

On Cruiser Cost 10, @4 vs aircraft, @3 vs ship or else, here are the numbers:
1 aircraft and 1 other hit, 2 casualty: odds are: 1/12
1 regular hit only, odds are 2/12
1 aircraft and nothing else, odds are 3/12
No casualty at all: 6/12

Compared to Cruiser Cost 10, @7, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12
No casualty at all: 5/12

So, playing with 2 dice split in two values, there is more odds of no casualty, 50%.
But, there is a small chance, 1 out 12, 8.33% to get 2 hits.

Splitting dice into 1 vs Aircraft and 1 vs other, is not a doubling of odds at all.

If only considering a single combat round, there is no big difference about damage.
Let’s suppose that such Cruiser will hit a 10 IPCs unit or a 6 IPCs unit.
Hence, Cruiser Cost 10, @7, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 10 IPCs = 5.83 IPCs
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 6 IPCs = 3.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 5/12 * 10 IPCs = 0.00
Average: 4.665 IPCs

Let’s suppose that such Cruiser will hit a 10 IPCs unit, and a 6 IPCs Destroyer.
On Cruiser Cost 10, @4 vs aircraft, @3 vs ship or else, here are the numbers:
1 aircraft and 1 other hit (Destroyer), 2 casualty: odds are: 1/12 *16 IPCs = 1.33 IPCs
1 regular hit only (Destroyer), odds are 2/12 * 6 IPCs = 1 IPC
1 aircraft and nothing else, odds are 3/12 * 10 IPCs = 2.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 6/12 * 0 IPC = 0.00
SUM: 4.83 IPCs

Your previous Cruiser was only @4 vs aircraft.
Cruiser Cost 10, @4, odds:
1 aircraft only, odds are 4/12 * 10 IPCs = 3.33 IPCs

If you go the reverse values for Cruiser,
like Cost 10, @3 vs aircraft, @4 vs ship or else, here are the numbers:
1 aircraft and 1 other hit (Destroyer), 2 casualty: odds are: 1/12 *16 IPCs = 1.33 IPCs
1 regular hit only (Destroyer), odds are 3/12 * 6 IPCs = 1.50 IPC
1 aircraft and nothing else, odds are 2/12 * 10 IPCs = 1.67 IPCs
No casualty at all: 6/12 * 0 IPC = 0.00
SUM: 4.50 IPCs

In that regard, you will be below the average of a regular Cruiser facing from 6 to 10 IPCs units:
Hence, Cruiser Cost 10, @7, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 10 IPCs = 5.83 IPCs
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 6 IPCs = 3.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 5/12 * 10 IPCs = 0.00
Average: 4.665 IPCs

HTH make up your mind about these special rolls.

According to my taste, I would like to consider that last “@3” as the usual AA roll in all circumstances, except for a Fighter on defense keeping the high “4” against aircraft.

That way, you can also us this “@3” for Battleship and damaged Battleship.
Battleship, Cost 15, @3 vs aircraft, @6 vs ships or else.
Damaged BB, @3 vs aircraft, @3 vs ships or else.

For your info.
To explain where I got all odds for 4 cases: 1/12, 2/12, 3/12, 6/12.
@3/12 vs aircraft, @4/12 vs other unit
2 hits: @3 * @4 = 12 out 144 or 1/12
1 aircraft hit: @3 vs @8 = 24 out of 144 or 2/12
1 regular hit: @9 vs @4 = 36 out of 144 or 3/12
0 hit: @9 vs @8 = 72 out of 144 or 6/12

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Guys are concerned about over kill to.

In addition, if you decide that this AA roll @3 only work if there is an enemy aircraft available, you are radically diminishing Cruiser and Battleship combat values.

When I first suggested the above split dice, I was still considering that, in absence of aircraft, Cruiser and BB can still roll their AA combat value, but casualty apply to warships, DD, Subs, Cruiser, etc.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Looking at this some more the Cruiser will be a pretty strong ship due to being able to take 2 hits on a plane and a ship. Its like a 2 hit ship for damage now. The BB can get 4 hits before its sunk. Did you consider those numbers ?
How these look if we figure out a new numbers table for 2 AD dice ships ?
CR A3 pl A3 ship
BB A4 pl A4 ship Damaged A3 pl A3 ship

Maybe with the CR A4 A4 BB A4 A5 may not work with plane C10 ?
I can see planes Costing 8 or 9. At least Naval Figs and Dive Bombers.

Still will try it games. Just got to come up with a value that we are all OK with for starters.

For your info.
To get different odds for 4 cases:
Cruiser @3/12 vs aircraft, @3/12 vs other unit
2 hits: @3 * @3 = 9 out 144 or 0.75/12 or 6.25% * 16 IPCs = 1 IPC
1 aircraft hit: @3 vs @9 = 27 out of 144 or 2.25/12 or 18.75% * 10 IPC = 1.875 IPCs
1 regular hit: @9 vs @3 = 27 out of 144 or 2.25/12 or 18.75% * 6 IPC = 1.125 IPCs
0 hit: @9 vs @9 = 81 out of 144 or 6.75/12 or 56.25%
SUM: 4.00 IPCs

Compared to Cruiser Cost 10, @7, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 10 IPCs = 5.83 IPCs
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 6 IPCs = 3.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 5/12 * 10 IPCs = 0.00
Average: 4.665 IPCs

Battleship @3/12 vs aircraft, @5/12 vs other unit
2 hits: @3 * @5 = 15 out 144 or 1.25/12 or 10.42% * 16 IPCs = 1.667 IPC
1 aircraft hit: @3 vs @7 = 21 out of 144 or 1.75/12 or 14.58% * 10 IPC = 1.458 IPCs
1 regular hit: @9 vs @5 = 45 out of 144 or 3.75/12 or 31.25% * 6 IPC = 1.875 IPCs
0 hit: @9 vs @7 = 63 out of 144 or 5.25/12 or 43.75%
SUM: 5.00 IPCs

Compared to Battleship Cost 15, @9, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 9/12 * 10 IPCs = 7.50 IPCs
1 regular hit only, odds are 9/12 * 6 IPCs = 4.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 3/12 * 10 IPCs = 0.00
Average: 6.00 IPCs

Thanks a ton Baron for the numbers. Yes I’m aware odds don’t double.
CR A7 = 7/12 or 58%
CR A3 plane A4 ship = A3/12 25% A4/12 33% =
58%
Main number looking for was the 2 hit odds which you said like 8.8%
So not to get guys confused will stick with aa@3
CR C10 A3 plane A4 ship
BB C15 A3 plane A6 ship
BB dam A3 plane A3 ship
Now the question is if there’s no planes in a battle CR only gets 1 A4 for ship ?
BB only gets 1 A6 for ship ?

I can’t see the CR and BB getting a die hit for plane and getting 2 hits on a ship. AA pointing at sky.
Plus the two ships get an extra 8.8% odds on 2 hits plus any dice gods being mean so that ain’t bad difference drop to just getting hits on ships at A4 and A6 with no planes in battle.

@SS-GEN

Keeping a low @3 vs aircraft, allows to keep an higher regular combat value for the big guns of Cruisers and Battleships. It is playable.
However, this might imply sometimes, the reverse.
If only attacking are aircraft, can you defend your Cruiser or Battleships with other big guns rolls.
IMO, in that case, I would use both dice against aircraft only.

So AA roll is true AA gun but warships gun turrets can still blasts into the air.

Ok. Only planes attacking both ships get to roll 2 dice.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Ok. Only planes attacking both ships get to roll 2 dice.

But, what is the defense values of Carriers?
If only having AA rolls, and zero dice vs ships?

Maybe to keep a similar @3, you might need to lower down a bit the Carrier cost, to 12 IPCs?

Or are you going to make the special “4” defense for both Fighter and Carrier on defense?