Slashing the deck UK/US bombing campaign



  • I was thinking of ways to utilize US and UK bombers in the Atlantic when I noticed that you could bomb Western Germany, Northern Italy and France by taking off from UK and landing in Malta. You would have the UK build an Airbase on Malta, and then you could have bombers bombing back and forth from UK to Malta and back bombing three important factories along the way. And it’s not just factories you could hit, any Italian Fleet in 96, or strafe any weak territory making sure that the Axis have to be honest with their defense. If the Germans try to pin you down you just fly back to London where you have a nice infantry shield. You could also target large stacks of German bombers if they are not careful.
    Please reply with comments



  • Try to at the minimum tactical bomb the air base on Malta. If you can, have Italy take Malta. In my experience, Malta is important and which side controls it has control of the med. You are right about the bombers retreating to the UK. Also sea-lion is a good idea if all they are doing is building Strategic Bombers and Infantry. Just make sure you can hold London. Just take Malta and your problem is solved(Except for France, can still be hit if Air Base is in Gibralter.



  • @Hunter:

    Try to at the minimum tactical bomb the air base on Malta. If you can, have Italy take Malta. In my experience, Malta is important and which side controls it has control of the med. You are right about the bombers retreating to the UK. Also sea-lion is a good idea if all they are doing is building Strategic Bombers and Infantry. Just make sure you can hold London. Just take Malta and your problem is solved(Except for France, can still be hit if Air Base is in Gibralter.

    A UK factory in Egypt is probably essential to this plan to hold Malta.
    And I actually did not mention what the UK would buy I was thinking that the US save US1 and then drop down a large bomber buy turn 2. The UK would be responsible for holding Malta, making sure London is safe, contributing 1 or 2 bombers per turn. Also if the UK can afford it maybe a sub or two to convoy Italy.



  • First you can make lone bombing runs on both W Germany and Paris from London, then return to London (hitting N Italy doesn’t get you much IMO). So there isn’t a need to fly to Malta and spend income on an air base for a return flight unless you have another motive.

    Lone bmr runs on Paris (or N Italy) might be possible w/o escorts, but SBR on W Germany w/o ftr escorts probably isn’t happening too many times as the Germans generally have some ftrs there. I could see a one time shot with both US and UK bombing W Germany if the Luftwaffe is out on a mission, but probably not multiple hits over 2-3 turns (Germans will wise up fast). You need to have have ftrs join your SBR in most cases which is difficult. You need to have already made a landing in Europe/Norway giving you landing places or use a carrier(s) to get ftr and tacs into SBR runs on W Germany.

    Hitting Paris and maxing it out multiple times with only bomers (no escorts) might be possible because of lack of German air power there. It could be worth it just before a Euro landing to force the Germans to spend some income when setting up defense.

    Edit: SBR on N Italy wouldn’t get you much IMO, because they have Rome right next to it, and don’t build a lot of units normally. If you could hit N Italy IC early the Italians couldn’t use it to pump mech into Russia, or inf into the def of France unless they bough it out (so it might be worth it).

    On a side note often times the Italians will leave N Italy weak to max def Rome against invasion allowing the UK to easily land in N Italy. But again even if Italy gets it back dropping it to a minor really doesn’t effect Italy much because I’ve never seen the Italians build more then 2-3 units up there lol.



  • @WILD:

    First you can make lone bombing runs on both W Germany and Paris from London, then return to London (hitting N Italy doesn’t get you much IMO). So there isn’t a need to fly to Malta and spend income on an air base for a return flight unless you have another motive.

    Lone bmr runs on Paris (or N Italy) might be possible w/o escorts, but SBR on W Germany w/o ftr escorts probably isn’t happening too many times as the Germans generally have some ftrs there. I could see a one time shot with both US and UK bombing W Germany if the Luftwaffe is out on a mission, but probably not multiple hits over 2-3 turns (Germans will wise up fast). You need to have have ftrs join your SBR in most cases which is difficult. You need to have already made a landing in Europe/Norway giving you landing places or use a carrier(s) to get ftr and tacs into SBR runs on W Germany.

    Hitting Paris and maxing it multiple times with bomers only might be possible because of lack of German air power there. It could be worth it just before a Euro landing to force the Germans to spend some income when setting up defense. SBR on N Italy wouldn’t get you much IMO because the Italians don’t really need that major anyway, they will just produce their 3 units in Rome lol.

    On a side note often times the Italians will leave N Italy weak to max def Rome against invasion allowing the UK to easily land in N Italy. But again even if Italy gets it back dropping it to a minor really doesn’t effect Italy much because I’ve never seen the Italians build more then 2-3 units up there lol.

    Yeah north Italy isn’t the best target but sometimes they will build mech or tanks to get in to Russia.



  • Agreed (see edit).

    Again you can make lone SBR runs on W Germany and Paris from London, and return to London (w/o going to Malta). The problem is to bomb W Germany you generally need ftr escorts.



  • @WILD:

    Agreed (see edit).

    Again you can make lone SBR runs on W Germany and Paris from London, and return to London (w/o going to Malta). The problem is to bomb W Germany you generally need ftr escorts.

    Were are you planning on landing the escorts?
    If you have enough bombers escorts are just a luxury.
    Example if you have 11-12 bombers bombing western germany, intercepting with 3-4 German fighters that usually sit on western for 2-3 rounds isn’t worth it. You would probably just hope the AA guns would work


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Note:  Having Italy take Malta also pretty much ends the British chances of getting that NO in the Atlantic.  If they do manage to get it back, the game’s probably lost for the Axis anyway, IMHO.

    Always try for Malta with Italy in my games.  Lightly defended, easy to take, really hard to get back (and if England does, they are using a turn for it instead of using troops elsewhere.)



  • @Cmdr:

    Note:  Having Italy take Malta also pretty much ends the British chances of getting that NO in the Atlantic.  If they do manage to get it back, the game’s probably lost for the Axis anyway, IMHO.

    Always try for Malta with Italy in my games.  Lightly defended, easy to take, really hard to get back (and if England does, they are using a turn for it instead of using troops elsewhere.)

    The only problem is that you need a transport. Have a stack of bombers within range makes that hard.



  • @RougeOne:

    @WILD:

    Agreed (see edit).

    Again you can make lone SBR runs on W Germany and Paris from London, and return to London (w/o going to Malta). The problem is to bomb W Germany you generally need ftr escorts.

    Were are you planning on landing the escorts?
    If you have enough bombers escorts are just a luxury.
    Example if you have 11-12 bombers bombing western germany, intercepting with 3-4 German fighters that usually sit on western for 2-3 rounds isn’t worth it. You would probably just hope the AA guns would work

    Ok, I thought you were talking about UK/US both having like 3-4 bmrs each, and SBRs on West Germany would be pretty risky w/o escorts (because of interceptors). I didn’t realize you were talking about a 10 bmr force for each of the allies. With 10 bmrs they are basically escorting themselves, so there isn’t much need for additional ftr escorts. Especially now that interceptors were also reduced to rolling at 1 in the dog fight (I liked it better when interceptors fired at 2).

    Don’t get me wrong I like to project air power in the Med, and I think that smacking W Germany with 10 bmrs would be pretty awesome. Just don’t know if I would spend the IPCs for an air base on Malta to fly back-n-forth. There still isn’t a need to risk bmrs at Malta, because you can SBR from London and return.

    Great though about overwhelming the Luftwaffe keeping them grounded with a huge bmr force (i like it).



  • @WILD:

    @RougeOne:

    @WILD:

    Agreed (see edit).

    Again you can make lone SBR runs on W Germany and Paris from London, and return to London (w/o going to Malta). The problem is to bomb W Germany you generally need ftr escorts.

    Were are you planning on landing the escorts?
    If you have enough bombers escorts are just a luxury.
    Example if you have 11-12 bombers bombing western germany, intercepting with 3-4 German fighters that usually sit on western for 2-3 rounds isn’t worth it. You would probably just hope the AA guns would work

    Ok, I thought you were talking about UK/US both having like 3-4 bmrs each, and SBRs on West Germany would be pretty risky w/o escorts (because of interceptors). I didn’t realize you were talking about a 10 bmr force for each of the allies. With 10 bmrs they are basically escorting themselves, so there isn’t much need for additional ftr escorts. Especially now that interceptors were also reduced to rolling at 1 in the dog fight (I liked it better when interceptors fired at 2).

    Don’t get me wrong I like to project air power in the Med, and I think that smacking W Germany with 10 bmrs would be pretty awesome. Just don’t know if I would spend the IPCs for an air base on Malta to fly back-n-forth. There still isn’t a need to risk bmrs at Malta, because you can SBR from London and return.

    Great though about overwhelming the Luftwaffe keeping them grounded with a huge bmr force (i like it).

    Yeah maybe Malta isn’t worth it but it is cool to have a stack of bombers flying back and forth. And it is a huge investment so maybe this would be a late game strategy after a KJF once the USA can focus large amounts of money on Germany alone and when the UK has more money.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Italy needs a transport to take Malta, true.  However, you should have 1 or 2 transports left anyway, more than enough.  So you don’t hit N. Africa that round…you pull 5 IPC away from England for virtually the entire game and make the entire sea safer for your fleet (no LZ in Malta for British/American aircraft.)

    The opportunity cost is worth it, in my opinion.  Survivors from there can be offloaded into Africa round 2 anyway.  (odds are good you only have 1 transport Round 1 anyway, right?  So INF + ARM + Bombard should win in Malta)

    Don’t forget, you cost the British a transport to retake it, and they have to be able to get a transport in there (in which case, again, I humbly suggest Italy is no longer a threat at that point anyway!)



  • @Cmdr:

    Italy needs a transport to take Malta, true.  However, you should have 1 or 2 transports left anyway, more than enough.  So you don’t hit N. Africa that round…you pull 5 IPC away from England for virtually the entire game and make the entire sea safer for your fleet (no LZ in Malta for British/American aircraft.)

    The opportunity cost is worth it, in my opinion.  Survivors from there can be offloaded into Africa round 2 anyway.  (odds are good you only have 1 transport Round 1 anyway, right?  So INF + ARM + Bombard should win in Malta)

    Don’t forget, you cost the British a transport to retake it, and they have to be able to get a transport in there (in which case, again, I humbly suggest Italy is no longer a threat at that point anyway!)

    Usually I do the Taranto Raid so it would have to work with 1 transporr and malta is where you land your Airforce after taranto. The only way you could take Malta on turn one is if you scrambled against taranto leaving Britain with a bomber in malta. Then I guess you could take it if you brought in your bomber and was able to get a bombardment with the cruiser.



  • @WILD:

    Example if you have 11-12 bombers bombing western germany, intercepting with 3-4 German fighters that usually sit on western for 2-3 rounds isn’t worth it. You would probably just hope the AA guns would work

    Odds are with 11-12 bombers you would be losing money or at best breaking even at that point. If you send that many you should  expect to lose ~2/turn costing you $24. The max damage that you could do to a major factory would be $20, which you would expect to reach with 4-5 bombers. The other bombers are extraneous at that point and you’re just subjecting them to enemy aa fire that could get lucky.

    If you have that many bombers and are still buying more, a better strat might just be to start strafing small stacks of German units. It would either force Germany to abandon various territories or really pile on the units so your massive bomber force can’t touch them.

    As far as where escorts could land, they could land in sz110 (assuming allied fleet there), somewhere along the French coast, or Norway.


  • 2018 2017

    Bombing out overcapacity and factories that you will eventually want to capture has been shown by YG to be an inefficient move.  Russia’s initial capacity is 19, Italy 13, Germany on G2, 29 or more.  This gives them plenty of extra cap. to place units so bombing them out isn’t very effective.

    You don’t want to strike alone, or your bombers get picked off.  But, if you have too many bombers, they can’t usually all be hitting the enemy capacity all at once.  It is especially devastating to bomb them out in waves (both before and after their turn) by using multiple teams.

    Malta is a pretty cool idea, its usually ignored by all the teams until later in the game.  Its an annoying landing base, but its not the only one so taking it doesn’t end the UK ability to get into Italy’s business.  The best use I’ve seen for Malta and the Air Base isn’t as a bombing shuttle its as a base to confront Italy later in the game with the US, as an unsinkable carrier protecting your fleet as it gathers to invade.

    Otherwise, Malta is too vulnerable.  You can’t protect the bombers until you have an Allied fleet protecting the island.  The UK doesn’t always have enough power to confront the Italian Air Force in the early game so they can’t protect Malta alone, even with the Egypt fac.

    Bombing the axis and Russia in the G42 games proved to be much more effective than I thought, it caused our opponent to withdraw from NMoscow because he lost 1/2 of his money….when we were the Allies we struck at Germany and Western Germany (avoiding all bases, minors and Rome) many times, without losing more than 1 bomber all said, and they were forced to repair them consistently or lose their Atlantic Wall.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Haven’t read the whole thread but I’m confused as to why the airbase on Malta was removed in 2nd ed.



  • @simon33:

    Haven’t read the whole thread but I’m confused as to why the airbase on Malta was removed in 2nd ed.

    Strangely enough I think both the Malta and Gibraltar (especially Gib) gave the allies an advantage (hindsight is wonderful lol). The Gib air base made it too easy for the allies to start building a protected invasion fleet, Gib being the stepping stone for both US and UK to get into Europe. Malta as mention before basically gave the Allies a carrier in the Med, again to keep the fleet and landing force safe.

    Either of them could be taken by the axis, but that is generally short lived. Honestly returning those air bases to the set-up might be enough to balance things out. The Gib airbase gives the allies a great staging point with air cover. It can also allow the allies to come over earlier so it would put more pressure on Axis to build Atlantic defenses earlier then they do now.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    There was one on Gibraltar too? Perhaps that was going too far. That meant an invasion fleet never needed to leave the protection of an airbase until they hit Rome.



  • @simon33:

    There was one on Gibraltar too? Perhaps that was going too far. That meant an invasion fleet never needed to leave the protection of an airbase until they hit Rome.

    Exactly, that’s why they were both removed, but now the consensuses is that the allies are under powered and need a bid. The German bmr strat “Dark Sky’s” seems to push the Axis advantage to the limit. An airbase added back to Gib at set-up could give the allies what they need to push back, and reduce or eliminate the bid.

    An air base at Gib (has a ftr) probably makes the Germans think twice about hitting the 91 cruiser too.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    I’m not sure an airbase would prevent the Germans from hitting sea zone 91 unless a destroyer also magically appears in sea zone 91…

    Marsh


  • 2019 2017 2016

    @WILD:

    @simon33:

    There was one on Gibraltar too? Perhaps that was going too far. That meant an invasion fleet never needed to leave the protection of an airbase until they hit Rome.

    Exactly, that’s why they were both removed, but now the consensuses is that the allies are under powered and need a bid. The German bmr strat “Dark Sky’s” seems to push the Axis advantage to the limit. An airbase added back to Gib at set-up could give the allies what they need to push back, and reduce or eliminate the bid.

    An air base at Gib (has a ftr) probably makes the Germans think twice about hitting the 91 cruiser too.

    An airbase on Malta only is not as useful as on Gibraltar and does not affect game balance as drastically.



  • @simon33:

    @WILD:

    @simon33:

    There was one on Gibraltar too? Perhaps that was going too far. That meant an invasion fleet never needed to leave the protection of an airbase until they hit Rome.

    Exactly, that’s why they were both removed, but now the consensuses is that the allies are under powered and need a bid. The German bmr strat “Dark Sky’s” seems to push the Axis advantage to the limit. An airbase added back to Gib at set-up could give the allies what they need to push back, and reduce or eliminate the bid.

    An air base at Gib (has a ftr) probably makes the Germans think twice about hitting the 91 cruiser too.

    An airbase on Malta only is not as useful as on Gibraltar and does not affect game balance as drastically.

    Yea, but most people are using a 20+ IPC unit bid, and the Med seems to be where much of it gets placed (which is very drastic IMO). So maybe a 15 IPC airbase for Gib doesn’t seem that drastic and brings some balance back. It won’t effect the opening turn that much, but makes a big difference once the US gets into the game. I remember the early days when there was an AB at both Gib and Malta and it made a difference for the allies.

    Just saying the next time you play bid an AB at both Gib and Malta to try it out.



  • @Marshmallow:

    I’m not sure an airbase would prevent the Germans from hitting sea zone 91 unless a destroyer also magically appears in sea zone 91…

    Marsh

    I disagree, often times the Germans send just a sub to sZ91 hoping to hit the cruiser sinking it so it can’t return fire, or maybe it goes a couple rounds if both miss. An air base allows the ftr to also scramble so even if the sub hits the cruiser the sub could be killed by the ftr, and it is unlikely to go more then one round.

    Edit: Marsh is right the scrambled ftr couldn’t hit the attacking sub w/o a def destroyer in the battle


  • 2017 2016

    I dont understand Wild Bill.
    A scrambled plane cannot hit sub without a DD.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    @Baron:

    A scrambled plane cannot hit sub without a DD.

    This.

    Marsh


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