Buying and using submarines

@Baron:

But, the one idea that really struck me as the very new idea is:
to apply the taken last rule of transport to Subs in such a way that planes need no more destroyers and Subs didn’nt become a better and cheaper padding for protecting other warships than was destroyer.
I was looking upon if anyone did think something similar before?

The beginning of my relentless effort is about another aberration:
4- A combined fleet on attack can sometimes do much damage to a defender with many Subs by not bringing his destroyer in the attack.
That way, the planes will only attack surface warships (which are all costlier units than Subs).

@critmonster:

panzer: my point was that I cannot take hits from air to my subs unless you bring a destroyer so if you attack my fleet without a destroyer it is actually to your advantage because all your hits must be taken on my air force and capitol ships rather than taking them on my subs. I know that my subs get a “deadly” first shot (@1) without your DD but I hardly find that equitable, you sink my fleet (except subs) then move your DD over in non combat to neutralize them on my turn. I feel that as the controlling nation I should get to decide if they submerge. I am with Octo on this, I play the rules as stated and avoid house rules (except perhaps bids).

Perhaps I have not played enough games to see the air/sub balance.

What a strange gamey strategy:
Bring less unit, so you increase your odds of making more damage to the enemy.
Another counter-intuitive consequence of the OOB rules.

More, bring all your Subs to be used as fodder, so you screen your other warships  against other defending subs (almost like DDs).

Personally, I never buy subs. They are not cost effective.

It depends for me. As U.S. I have a couple in the Pacific, but buy more destroyers instead. Once you move your fleet into Japanese waters your worry is his planes, so subs become less useful when defending whereas a stack of 10 destroyers will do you well.

Its good to have a mix of destroyers and subs, but subs are the way to go when you want to make Japan afraid.

@taamvan said in Buying and using submarines:

Its good to have a mix of destroyers and subs, but subs are the way to go when you want to make Japan afraid.

I mean, I love the subs on the attack but if the U.S. is sitting in SZ6 and Japan still has their planes, you’ll be glad you’ve got destroyers for hit soakers over subs.

I dont sit in SZ 6 with surface ships, japan planes can get there from all points and they can use their kamis

@taamvan said in Buying and using submarines:

I dont sit in SZ 6 with surface ships, japan planes can get there from all points and they can use their kamis

Without the surface ships to defend with the U.S. doesn’t have to attack with anything worth Kamikazing…

@Shin-Ji building subs early on does make your fleets defense weak but if your the aggressor and hunting down the Japanese fleets, your offensive power is very strong! And in a early game strategy where all I wanted to do was keep japan land locked and had Anzac and UK mop up the islands while I as the US focused on Europe. That strategy works very well. If forces japan to build a crap ton of destroyers which then you can switch to as well and eventually out produce his. If you keep a couple carriers with fighters in your fleet of subs and destroyers that navy is deadly on the offense. You definitely don’t want to be caught on defense. So it takes a lot of tactical moves like hit and runs. For example if you attack a fleet with multiple carriers and planes and they have like 1-2 destroyers. One those are dead the planes can’t hit subs so they are free to mop up the surface fleet. Once the battle gets down to just their air units in defense I would retreat to keep your air units alive because than it because your air and surface ships vs their air and you don’t want to lose your surface ships or air. So retreat and let them keep your air. You cleared the boats that’s the biggest part

i find subs to be quite fickle. They serve a very niche purpose. Their lousy defense makes them, at best, cheap soaks. Their convoy ability gives them a higher util, and planes not being able to hit them without a destroyer is also an interesting ability to be capitalized on! I like them if the US needs to be convoying aggressively, I like them if japan is light on destroyers, i like them if italy has a tenuous hold on the Mediterranean. the abilty to sub/bomber strike with the US if they don’t have gibralter is nice. I only buy subs with the germans if i think i can keep the UK low on income for a few turns, i only buy them with the japanese if i need to soaks to maintain parity w/ the US in the pacific. Occasionally w/ ANZAC if i can get away with convoying spice money (but would rather just take the terrirtory). I can’t ever remember buying subs w/ the UK or USSR. I keep telling my opponents that if china gets a territory with sea access they immediately get sub pens, but they never believe me.

@Aaron_the_Warmonger hahaha to that last comment. I really only use the subs with US bc they can serve more of a purpose with them than any other nation. I don’t recommend buying subs for UK or USSR. That would just be a waste of income that you can buy planes with for UK and infantry for the USSR

@weddingsinger All I was trying to say is that parking your US fleet in SZ 6 is a recipe for disaster, when it can be in every space around SZ 6 and be much safer. You can however, park as many subs there as you want because 1) once you control that area, you can screen out destroyers who could come 2) he cant build ships in SZ 6 unless you threaten that build, so any destroyers that are built can be blown up before Japan’s next turn 3) the subs can’t be hit by either kamis or planes, whereas your surface fleet can usually be mopped up by Japan’s abundant air force returning home plus some kamis on the carriers to defeat the air support