I see - thanks!
Stall tactic
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UK puts a ship in the sea zone, then Anzac declares war. The exception that would allow Japan to load on the same turn as they declare war does not apply because they were at war with Anzac (and therefore UK also) at the start of their turn. Avoid this Japan needs to leave troops on the transports
If the transports are NOT loaded, the presence of the UK naval vessel following an ANZAC declaration of war would stop Japan from loading transports during combat movement.
If Japan left the transports loaded, this tactic does not stop Japan from using the forces on them during combat. Because the combat movement is starting in a contested sea zone, Japan has the option of moving any forces out of that sea zone during the combat movement phase to avoid combat.
To block LOADED transports, you need to deploy blockers in the surrounding sea zones, not in the same sea zone. Even that doesn’t work if those surrounding sea zones contain useful spots for those transports to unload.
Marsh
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All fantastic strategies and point gents, but I hate to say that no one has really answered my question.
The following has occurred. Successful Taranto from UK. USSR DOW on Japan on R1. 12 Russian troops firmly in place in Buryatia, the 6 others are headed west and stationed in the Urals getting set up for the big fiesta in Moscow. UK firmly in control of Africa and pressing all over the Middle East with a mIC in Egypt (probably not optimum placement but I like it there in case India goes down). India beginning the “Stack”. ANZAC pushing folks to various islands and setting up forts. I sent the usual DEI defense suspects to their death so there were 2 inf each on the DEI. I didn’t feel the need to send more but maybe that is the answer although I think it would ultimately kill Calcutta/Sydney if you take too many.
Japan has 10 fully loaded transports with 1 ART and 1 INF and one with a tank. All places can get smashed with overwhelming fire power to basically kick the income level to 68 IPC’s collected on turn 4 collect income.
What should the USA do for a counter given that they have 156 IPC’s to spend and assuming a G4 german assault on USSR?
I am not particularly concerned about the European campaign as I can handle my friend because he isn’t that creative over there because he knows that I can trash him every single time with the USSR over there and simply waits for the Pacific VC victory in about 85% of our games so far.Now you know the situation a bit more completely.
I’m at work on a Friday and no other engineers are here so this pretty much my afternoon!
Cheers. -
If the UK and USSR are capably handling Germany and Italy by themselves in your games, you as the US should be going mostly Pacific.
You can build fleet (including loaded transports) and stage if off Queensland for the moment when the US magically enters the Allied side and all of a sudden has a naval base to spring from. So, while Japan might grab the Dutch East Indies and hold them on its turn, the US right behind it turns those islands into American territory (and American IPCs). If Japan deployed fleet to cover individual transports that took islands, then the US has an opportunity to destroy the Japanese fleet in detail rather than in one grand battle. If not, any islands you don’t recapture still lose their uncovered transports and the forces there are stranded.
It will take Japan at least two turns to get new loaded transports in a position to attack India or recapture DEI (more if they did not build them the same turn the DoW was issued), and by that time the US fleet can have turned north and presented a challenge to the IJN. So, while the sudden Japanese expansion might be scary, it will peter out as long as you are in position to counterattack it. In fact, it is probably only working against you because you are hanging back with the US and not pressuring Japan.
Consider that once the US goes to war, its income is higher than Japan and both nations share the same logistical concerns – new naval units are built the same distance from where they are needed. If you 1-1 swap ships with Japan, you are winning the economic war in the Pacific because Japan cannot afford to rebuild navy to challenge the US and also win the game at the same time.
Also consider in the Pacific that it does not matter if India falls as long as the Allies hold New South Wales, Hawaii, and Western US. You could turn Hawaii into a mega fortress with a fleet around it that can sail to the relief of Australia with an accompanying land force, and during the same turn build replacements in Western US for whatever you send to Australia.
Marsh
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If Japan has 10 loaded transports after round 3 I bet China is doing pretty well. Without seeing the board I would have USA invest in matching CV’s with Japan and buy many subs. I would suspect with as many transports so early that Japan is low on DDs. Try to use this to your advantage. Drain him of DD’s and your subs are golden. Keep adding Air power as well until you have a force that can take and sit at Caroline. This forces Japan to not be able to purchase naval units in seazone 6 if his fleet is at the DEI. Japan is not in any danger of losing their island but they risk building ships in season 6 which is what Japan wants to do. Japan does not want to build ships at its factories on the coast since that takes away from the land units to outnumber China and India. If he moves the fleet to DEI then take Caroline if you can hold it and send the Russians to Amur. I can almost guarantee that fleet will turn around. Good Luck :)
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Fantastic reply. My question is should the USA fleet in Hawaii always immediately go to Queensland with a later Japan DOW? My friend usually waits for the 2nd round.
I know this is kind of dumb for most people but I was really close last time with the Allies maybe just 2 rounds from Berlin. The game before last a horde of angry Communists combined with a punishing US 18th Airforce (18th because I had 18 of them) sent German industry into the Stone Age resulting in a very jubilant victory on my side of the plywood. I would love nothing more than to make this one even more punishing for him as he has been letting me know about this for about a month and a half now. We also have a crappy little trophy we bought at a garage sale with a sculpt from every power hot glued to it. I would like that back in my possession. Thanks for any help with this.
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Fantastic reply. My question is should the USA fleet in Hawaii always immediately go to Queensland with a later Japan DOW? My friend usually waits for the 2nd round.
Nothing stops you from moving the entire US fleet to Queensland on US2. You could also maintain the fleet around Hawaii, which is a threat to Japan and the Carolines and provides you with the opportunity to relieve Australia and then move down to Queensland if Japan is making heavy noises in that direction.
If Japan is spending that heavily on transports, then you should be able to win a naval engagement. Even when not at war, the US is bringing in more cash than Japan that is at war with China and Russia.
Also, acquaint yourself again with the rules allowing the US to declare war early and with Japan’s NOs. For instance if he’s taking FIC early but you’re still paying him 10 IPCs on his turn, that’s wrong. Sometimes there’s little nuances to the rules that we miss, and it serves us all well to periodically review them.
Marsh
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Marsh said it very well. If you can hold out in Queensland without the US the do so because Seazone 6 will be in hot water so to speak.
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In response to the OP, My moves are to:
- try to land the US on Korea, reinforce with the Soviet East troops, build an IC, push south.
- Land on Sumatra UK1 and bring as many extra troops across as you can. Without this income, India is pretty much toast.
- If they build a naval base on Hainan or Kwangsi (?) J1, you will probably need to use your DD as a blocker to hold India through J2. It’s better to give up the DD than to have your land troops stay at home.
- If you have a bid, put at least one art in Kweichow
- If you can’t defend the Burma Rd, defend northern china. It still has some income and also ties down some of the Japanese.
- Evacuate Malaya turn 1. You can’t defend and if the Japanese land on it you’re better off to just retake it from Shan State.
- If the US can convoy SZ6, do so. The Japanese lose their momentum very quickly if they don’t have the income.
HTH
@Marshmallow:
UK puts a ship in the sea zone, then Anzac declares war. The exception that would allow Japan to load on the same turn as they declare war does not apply because they were at war with Anzac (and therefore UK also) at the start of their turn. Avoid this Japan needs to leave troops on the transports
If the transports are NOT loaded, the presence of the UK naval vessel following an ANZAC declaration of war would stop Japan from loading transports during combat movement.
If Japan left the transports loaded, this tactic does not stop Japan from using the forces on them during combat. Because the combat movement is starting in a contested sea zone, Japan has the option of moving any forces out of that sea zone during the combat movement phase to avoid combat.
To block LOADED transports, you need to deploy blockers in the surrounding sea zones, not in the same sea zone. Even that doesn’t work if those surrounding sea zones contain useful spots for those transports to unload.
Marsh
I would choose to interpret the rule that the Japanese’ first turn after the DOW applies the exemption. Otherwise it seems a loophole.
@Pac:
During your
Combat Move phase in which you entered into a
state of war, your transports that are already in sea
zones that have just become hostile may be loaded
in those sea zones (but not in other hostile sea
zones). In effect, transports may be loaded in their
initial sea zones for amphibious assaults before war
is declared, while the sea zone is still friendly.It doesn’t specifically state that this only applies for the declarer of war. It’s the first turn that Japan has entered a state of war with the UK so I would consider that the exemption still applies.
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@Young:
Here’s a way the allies can be sneaky, when you feel it in your bones that the Japanese will DOW and start jumping on money islands, sail one British or ANZAC destroyer into the same seazone as the huge Japan fleet with all the loaded transports. This will prevent Japan from using their transports in an attack role as the destroyer blocks them, than the US can gain position around the islands and take a fight to them when they spread out the fleet. One of the major draw backs to waiting until a J4 attack, is that Japan will lose position around the money islands, and the Allies should be prepared to exploit that. Even if Japan sacks Calcutta, without a solid grip on the islands… their economy can not reach the necessary level in order to protect what they’ve gained let alone expand further.
Sorry YG but you’re quite wrong on this one. The rules specifically allow those transports to be loaded on the turn Japan declares war. If that tactic was legal there is no end to the number of ways the Allies could screw with Japan and it would make the game unplayable… just send destroyers to wherever Japan has their transports and they’d never be able to DOW and load transports on the same turn. It would create colossally stupid game situations.
Japan would have to J1 DOW every game if that tactic were legal, otherwise the only place it could be guaranteed to be able to load transports on its DOW turn would be SZ6 on J2, and no SZ thereafter.
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@Young:
I know i’ll sound stupid here… but…
DOW?
DEI?Declaration of war
Dutch East Islandsat the risk of being annoying… it’s “Dutch East Indies”
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Thanks guys, and sorry for getting that wrong… now I’m off to chew out the guy that’s been playing me for a fool :|
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I would choose to interpret the rule that the Japanese’ first turn after the DOW applies the exemption. Otherwise it seems a loophole.
It is a loophole.
It doesn’t specifically state that this only applies for the declarer of war. It’s the first turn that Japan has entered a state of war with the UK so I would consider that the exemption still applies.
I don’t think that interpretation is the correct one. I have no problem with house ruling it away, because it is a cheesy move on the part of the Allied player, but in a tournament I believe it’s the rule unless everyone agrees otherwise.
Marsh
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@Young:
Thanks guys, and sorry for getting that wrong… now I’m off to chew out the guy that’s been playing me for a fool :|
Sadly, that’s usually the dude in the mirror for me!
Marsh
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I really don’t see it as a loophole or a trick; its an exploit.
There is no operational cost or risk to leaving the guys on the transport here because they should be very well protected by the warship fleet sent south to seize the DEI/India. A J1 avoids any of these risks, with other huge benefits, risking only a USKJF.
The same spoiler can happen during a J2 vs India; If Britain blocks SZ 37 with a warship, Japan can only “pass at peace” during noncoms if they want to reach SZ 39. If they attack the ship in SZ 37, they can only attack SZ 39 with air. This is why failing to screen/block SZ 37 is a crucial defensive failure, because otherwise Japan can seize Ceylon on J2 and defeat Calcutta on J3.
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There is no operational cost or risk to leaving the guys on the transport here because they should be very well protected by the warship fleet sent south to seize the DEI/India. A J1 avoids any of these risks, with other huge benefits, risking only a USKJF.
Yep, no downside for leaving the troops on the ships.
In the real world, you can’t do that. Those guys are heavily armed after all!
Marsh
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@Marshmallow:
I would choose to interpret the rule that the Japanese’ first turn after the DOW applies the exemption. Otherwise it seems a loophole.
It is a loophole.
It doesn’t specifically state that this only applies for the declarer of war. It’s the first turn that Japan has entered a state of war with the UK so I would consider that the exemption still applies.
I don’t think that interpretation is the correct one. I have no problem with house ruling it away, because it is a cheesy move on the part of the Allied player, but in a tournament I believe it’s the rule unless everyone agrees otherwise.
Marsh
I was going to say that if you read it that way then if, for example, UK declares on Japan then Japan can’t load transports in contested sea zones. But that can’t actually happen because there would be combat on the UK’s turn. I guess the only possibility is a newly mobilised unit which is extremely unlikely.
Still, I think this one needs to be tidied up.
I also think the rule about moving ships through a sea zone which was hostile for Combat Movement on NCM is somewhat cheesy and more common. A big deal in the Med UK1.
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US, USSR, China, ANZAC and France have no initiative in the game… always have to react.
Only UK has initiative. Taranto, Tobruk and TMG (The Mahatma Gambit)
This is reflective of the true WWII situation.
So, only stall tactic in Pacific, against monster Japanese Navy and Airforce, is the UK India Navy.
THREATEN to Sacrifice the BB or DD , to delay the Japanese Momentum for a turn. The BB costing 20 IPC, will delay Japan getting 25+ IPC . It can also help in Phillippines etc
Allies still come up positive with this play.
Russian player and Moscow will thank you for this… as if Japan goes J2, then usually Moscow can be held against a G6/G7/G8 attack
If no J2, then UK BB in Tokyo water, means a botched J3, unless Japanese player sees this and plays very accurately and carefully.
This is not a cheat tactic, as was mentioned before.
This is the only meaningful Allied threat in the Pacific theater to keep Japan honest.
Good luck analysing this play.
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USA has no initiative? What moves does it have to react to. I don’t think you understand the term.
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US’s hands are tied till end of Turn 3. Unless Axis DOW on it…or Japan attacks unprovoked .
In Atlantic, it cannot go beyond a certain limit.
In Pacific, it cannot park it’s Navy next to Japanese territory…
Is neutral in Pac, cannot use other Allied NB, AB.
So whatever moves it makes away from Continental US is very obvious, and Japan can at its will choose to take action where it wants, more or less.
So, unless there is a DOW, US cannot act to help allies till US4.
Hence Axis have the advantage of deciding the course of the game…hence the initiative.
Definition of “Initiative” (among others):
“Power or opportunity to act or take charge BEFORE others do…”
So, among Allies, only UK, and to an extent Anzac has it, in the opening and early part of the game…
Hope this makes it clearer.
Since we are discussing “Stall” tactics, found it relevent to mention Alied (UK/Anzac) moves, that can tinker with or counter Axis plans.
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