G40 - Naval Air Attack & Naval Rules


  • NAVAL AIR ATTACKS &
    NAVAL RULES

    UPDATED 14-April-2016

    MODIFIED UNIT RULES

    Ship Based AAA

    • Is rolled during every combat round.

    • Is rolled independently from a ship’s normal combat rolls.  Ships can still roll their normal attack and defense rolls during regular combat.

    • Can be used in the attack as well as defense.

    • Is the only way a ship can hit an aircraft. Ship’s regular combat rolls must apply their hits to other ships.

    • Is treated as a normal AAA in all other aspects.

    • Analysis: As many countries belatedly discovered, AIRPLANES rule the seas, not big ships.   Make sure your ships have air cover.  This can be done via carriers or air-bases with scramble.

    Transports

    • Have ship based AAA that can target up to 1 plane per turn.

    Destroyers

    • Can only apply their special anti-sub abilities to ONE enemy sub in the sea zone per destroyer.

    • Destroyers now cost 7 IPCs

    • Have ship based AAA that can target up to 1 plane per turn.

    • Analysis:   Puts focus on using destroyers as the fleet screening vessels instead of subs.   Incentive for a fleet to have many destroyers instead of many subs.  Incentive for sub groups to operate more independently of fleets, focusing more on convoys and opportunity hits instead.

    Cruisers

    • Have ship based AAA that can target up to 2 planes per turn.

    • Cruisers now cost 11 IPCs.

    Battleships

    • Have ship based AAA that can target up to 2 planes per turn.

    Aircraft Carriers

    • Have ship based AAA that can target up to 1 plane per turn.

    TAC Bombers

    • Applies to NAVAL BATTLES ONLY:  During attack and defense, if a TAC bomber roles a 1, the DIE ROLLER may choose which ship to apply the hit to.  All other roles other than 1 are treated as normal.

    • The Die Roller applies their TAC @1 hits first.  Then, the regular hits are applied as normal by the person receiving them.

    • Die Roller may choose to hit ANY enemy ship in the battle, including Transports.

    Strategic Bombers

    • Attack at 2 in Naval Combat.  (Applies to any attack in a Sea Zone)

    MODIFIED BATTLE RULES

    Naval Air Attacks

    • Are defined as an attack that ONLY involves air units from the attacker

    • Are limited to one round of combat

    • Defender can only defend with Ship-Based AAA fire and Air Units (both carrier based and scrambled) AAA fires as normal per A&A rules.  Therefore, AAA fires and removes any attacking airplanes before normal combat begins.  Each plane can only be targeted once, regardless of how many AAA’s are available in the defending fleet.

    Naval Combat Involving Sea and Air Units

    • Naval combat involving sea and air units from the attacker can last an unlimited number of rounds.

    • AAA defense is an “added” combat step.  AAA from both sides will fire (and remove any air casualties) at the begining of each combat round.

    Naval Airplanes

    UNDER CONSIDERATION

    • At the end of each round of combat, carrier-based planes must have access to an operable carrier, otherwise they are destroyed.

    • The only exception would be for combat conducted in a sea-zone adjacent to a friendly land-zone or around a friendly island.

    Naval Retreats

    • After the each round of combat,  either or both players may opt to retreat.

    • If both players withdraw, defending player remains in the sea-zone and attacking player moves their fleet one sea zone.

    • If only one player opts to retreat, a roll of 3 or less must be made to successfully retreat.  Otherwise, the battle must continue until both players retreat or a successful retreat roll is made.

    • Retreating player may move one sea-zone.

    • If player retreats to a sea-zone that contains enemy surface ships, it is treated the same as if a ship has been mobilized in a sea-zone with enemy ships.  No additional combat ensues this round in that sea zone.

    SAMPLE BATTLES

    SAMPLE NAVAL AIR ATTACK BATTLE (Can only last one turn)

    • Attacking forces: 3 fighters and 3 TAC Bombers

    • Defending forces: 2 destroyers, 2 Transports (Loaded), 1 aircraft carrier, 2 fighters

    • 1st, AAA defense rolls: Defender would roll 5 dice.  (One dice per ship, each plane can only be targeted once)  1 hit is scored.  Attacker chooses a fighter to take the hit and immediately removes that unit from play.

    • 2nd, Attacker Rolls for the remaining 5 aircraft.  (Take special care to keep the TAC rolls separate incase they should hit @1).  Results are Fighters roll 2,6.   TAC that hits at 3 rolls a 4   The 2 modified TAC Bombers rolls are 4, 1.

    • **3rd, Apply Hits:  **Attacker scored 3 hits.  2 Hits are treated as normal.  1 Hit was a TAC@1.  Therefore, the attacker may apply this hit to a ship of their choosing.  The “Special Hit” is applied first.  Then, the defender applies the remaining 2 hits.

    • 4th, Defender rolls for the two defending fighters.

    • **5th  **All casualties are removed.

    Analysis:

    • Combat is still very simple.  It only adds the AAA defense step.

    • Air power rules the sea.   The Mahan doctrine of, “big ships, big guns, big fleets, big decisive action” no longer fully applies.   If a fleet doesn’t have sufficient air-power to defend it, it’s in for major trouble.

    • Lessens the tendency to simply mass ALL your ships into a mind-numbingly large flotilla.  Regardless of how many ships you have, if you don’t have the air units to provide cover, they will only defend with their AAA against Naval Air Attacks.

    • Allows the attacker to go after the Capital ships directly.  This is extremely important.  The target of all Naval Air Attacks were the carriers and large capital ships.  This is also a further incentive not to make naval fleets simply “big”.   The Capital ships can still get hit directly so some of the advantages to having Monster Fleets is lost.

    • Finally, and most importantly, PROVIDE AIR COVER.  The more planes you have defending a fleet, the less inviting it is for an attacker to launch a Naval Air Attack.

    SAMPLE NAVAL COMBAT WITH BOTH NAVAL AND AIR UNITS (can last multiple turns)

    • **Attacking Forces:  **1 Destroyer, 2 Subs, 1 Cruiser, 1 Aircraft Carrier, 2 Fighters

    • **Defending Forces:  **1 Destroyer, 2 Cruisers, 1 Aircraft Carrier, 2 Fighters.

    • 1st, Sub Special Attacks: Since the attacker has 2 subs and the defender only 1 Destroyer, attacker gets 1 special sub attack.  For the sake of this example, it misses.

    • 2nd, AAA Attacks: (NEW STEP) Both the attacker and Defender roll 2 dice for their AAA defense. (This is because each player has 2 participating aircraft and at least that many ships) Rolls of 1 immediately remove an enemy aircraft before it has a chance to attack or defend.

    • **3rd, Remaining Rolls:  **Take special care to separate the TAC rolls incase a 1 is scored.

    • 4th,  Remove Casualties

    • 5th, Continue? Each player decides if they want to continue.   If both players decide to retreat, the battle is over and the attacker withdraws.  If only one player wants to withdraw, a roll of 3 or less must be made to do so.

    Analysis

    • Naval battles are not like land battles where the defender is more locked in.   The ocean is big.  Night falls and ships can move upwards of 20 knots.   It was very common for navies to engage, exchange a round of hostilities, and disappear.   The Battle of the Coral Sea is one example.   Many, Many more can be given.

    • Air units still attack via the “Naval Air Attack” method.   Therefore, Capital Ships are at risk starting on round 1;  Regardless of how many screening vessels you have in front of them.  This can dramatically change the course of the Battle!

    • Naval engagements no longer need to be All or Nothing engagements.   Both the attacker and defender can engage, exchange hits, and disappear into the night.

    • I decided not to include a roll where naval units need to find each-other before engaging, even if they’re in the same sea zone.  First, I think it is outside of the scope of the game.  G40 is on the grand-strategy level.  Fleets looking for each-other seems much more on the operational level and would be better used for a more focused naval simulation game.   Secondly, it requires more dice-rolling.   I wanted to keep things simple.   The only additional dice-roll in this house rule set is the “retreat roll” when trying to disengage from a naval battle.

    CREDITS AND SPECIAL THANKS

    • Young Grasshopper: For suggesting to “Keep it Simple, Stupid”.  This went into consideration when modifying the way the Naval Air Attack is conducted.

    • Baron Muchhausen For suggesting that Transports also receive a AAA defense roll.

    • CWO Marc: For suggesting that Cruiser’s and Battleship’s AAA can target up to 2 attacking aircraft instead of 1

    • Kreuzfeld For suggesting that TAC “Special Hits” are applied before the regular hits and to also give suggestions for the way Naval Air Attacks are conducted.

  • Sponsor

    Well thought out, but when it comes to combat mechanics… it takes tons of play testing for a set of rules to work in all types of randomized situations. I like some of your ideas, but not sure about others as I’m sceptical as to how they might work in game. What about play testing it?.. how are the in game results?


  • Hello Young Grasshopper.  I haven’t had a chance to play test this yet.  My next game is on 08-May.

    In the 08 game I’m going to implement the updated “Axis & Allies & Comintern” rules and see how it goes with the revisions that people on this board have helped with.  (Thanks!).

    I wanted to post the “Naval Rules” on the board a couple of weeks before the game so everyone can kick it around a little bit.  I would very much like any and all suggestions an observations.  That way, it can be a little more polished before I play test it in a couple of weeks.

  • '17 '16

    Do you ever ponder about giving TP AAA capacity?

  • Sponsor

    I’m interested in giving ships AAA capabilities, and I’m interested in a special combat phase that weeds out air units, but I’m also interested in the simplest way to implement those things. I found your document complete but a little confusing and complex, I’ll have to look at it closer in the morning… but still, well thought out.


  • @Baron -  I considered but then decided against giving transports AAA.  I didn’t want to add unintended complexity or balance issues to the game.    This is already a pretty big rule change.   I felt it would be better not to tweak how transport strategies are conducted, as flawed as they may be.  I think i might give it a play test as is (or even somewhat more simplified if posible) to see if it has any unintended compound consequences.  If it works out OK, it might be neat to add AAA to the transports …. However, I can see people making historical arguments for and against doing this.

    @YG - I know what you mean about complexity.  It seems somewhat complex in writing.  But I’ve rolled out several “test battles” … Not actual game testing … Just isolated test battles by myself.  When broken down, it should only add one additional step to a battle, that is the ship AAA rolls against attacking aircraft.   Everything else is handled pretty much the same.

    When you get a chance, please do a couple of test-battles to get ahold of the dynamics and let me know what you think.  Maybe there are some ways to make it smoother.

    I really like the idea of separating ships and air-units as well.   Actually, this would also address many of the issues you mentioned in your dark skies post.   …  Also, I think it is going to place a greater value on the small islands and atoll’s in the Pacific Theater.   Players are going to want to control the islands and have their carrier fleets in the same sea zone.  That way, if a carrier gets damaged by an air-strike, your air units have a place to land.

  • '17 '16

    An old house rule used in Classic times, which gives 2 hits to Battleship (24 IPCs) and Carriers (18 IPCs) was about making Carrier top priority target.
    So, if a player wanted to take a casualty hit on Battleship, it was mandatory to put first a hit on a Carrier. The hits sequence was always CV-BB-CV-BB, even when there was only 1 Carrier with many BBs.
    It was a clear incentive not to bring Carrier in combat.

  • 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    One concern I have is the fact that the house rule treats all ships as having the same AAA capability, regardless of their type.  This is unrealistic because in WWII some ship types had far more AAA firepower than others.  To pick just two specific examples…

    Fletcher class destroyer
    5 × single 5 inch (127 mm)/38 caliber dual-purpose (AA / surface-attack) guns
    6–10 × 40 mm Bofors AA guns
    7–10 × 20 mm Oerlikon autocannons

    Iowa class battleship
    20 × single 5 inch (127 mm)/38 caliber dual-purpose (AA / surface-attack) guns
    80 × 40 mm Bofors AA guns
    49 × 20 mm Oerlikon autocannons

    …we can see that the Iowas had four times the number of heavy 5-inch DP guns, eight to thirteen times the number of 40mm guns, and five to seven times the number of 20mm cannons.


  • Hi Marc.   I understand your conserns on this.  Also, even the same ships were equiped with more “ack ack”  as the war progressed.

    Eventualy, for a game, it has to be abstracted to a certain degree.   Hopefully the abstraction has a happy balance between creating a historically realistic model and providing  easy, gripping game-play.

    Also, because A&A is on the Grand Strategy scale, the destroyers are most definitely not modeled on a 1 to 1 basis.   Most likely, when a player purchases a “destroyer” it would translate into a small group of destroyers and similar escort vessels (mine sweepers, surveillance, torpedo intercepters etc ….).  …  This translates even to the Capital Ships … For example, Italy starts the game with one BB.   However, they had multiple BB,s (grant it some of them were quite old) based out of Toranto.   But for game mechanics, this group of Italian Battleships is simply represented as a single unit on this Grand Strategy scale.

    That said, I like where you are going with this.   Maybe it would be better to modify the rule to state that BBs and CVs have AAA that can target 2 planes (each plane can still only be targeted 1 time … Same as regular AAA rules) … Cruisers and Destroyers can only target 1 plane.

    This will give the Capital Ships a little extra proteccion incase they lose too many of the screening vessles.    What do you think??

  • '17 '16

    Maybe, each ship gets an AAA factor of @1 vs up to * attack or defense factor.
    DD A2 D2, @1 vs up to 2.
    CA A3 D3, @1 vs up to 3.
    CV A0 D2, @1 vs up to 2 on defense, none on offense.
    BB A4 D4, @1 vs up to 4 planes.


  • @Baron:

    Maybe, each ship gets an AAA factor of @1 vs up to * attack or defense factor.
    DD A2 D2, @1 vs up to 2.
    CA A3 D3, @1 vs up to 3.
    CV A0 D2, @1 vs up to 2 on defense, none on offense.
    BB A4 D4, @1 vs up to 4 planes.

    Hi Baron.  I would have the ship have the same on offence or defence.  ….  From the ship’s perspective, AAA is ALWAYS a very defensive matter!  😄

    But I don’t know.  I was trying to keep it as simple as possible.  The normal, land-based AAA can roll for up to 3 planes @1.  I was originally just thinking about having each ship roll for just 1 plane.  … Reason being would be that land-based AAA is probably modeled as a wide-spread defensive AAA network throughout the entire territory.    Whereas Naval AAA are specifically mounted on the ships.  …  However, I like the idea of maybe having Capital Ships be able to target up to 2 planes.

  • '17 '16

    From a balance POV between units, Cruiser is neglected.
    I believe it should be BB and Cruiser which should receive more AA capacity.
    Carrier are already useful and will be more necessary in your set of house rule, since air dominance gives advantage.

  • 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    @the_jetset:

    That said, I like where you are going with this.   Maybe it would be better to modify the rule to state that BBs and CVs have AAA that can target 2 planes (each plane can still only be targeted 1 time … Same as regular AAA rules) … Cruisers and Destroyers can only target 1 plane. Â

    This will give the Capital Ships a little extra proteccion incase they lose too many of the screening vessles.    What do you think??

    That could work, but I’d suggest having battleships and cruisers (rather than battleships and carriers) be able to target two planes, and having destroyers and carriers (rather than destroyers and cruisers) be able to target one plane.  On American battleships, the 5-inch guns operated under the control of a central fire-direction system, so I’m not sure whether the guns on one side of a ship could target separate planes…but of course ships have two sides, and I think US battleships had two independent fire directors for the 5-inch guns, so presumably they could simultaneously handle an aircraft attack on each side.  The same was probably true of cruisers; given the large number of guns they carried, each half of a battleship’s or cruiser’s armament would still add up to a decent amount of firepower.  Aircraft carriers, as I recall, tended to have fewer 5-inch guns than battleships and cruisers, and I don’t know if they had fire-control directors.  Carriers weren’t designed to be gunnery platforms; they were floating airports, and the guns they did carry were purely for last-ditch self-defense.

    The 40mm Bofors guns and 20mm Oerlikon guns were aimed locally with optical sights.  (A friend of mine and I once had the opportunity to operate a hand-cranked 40mm Bofors quadruple-gun mount at a museum, which was a lot of fun; he turned the elevation handles and I turned the deflection handles – or maybe it was the other way around –  and I was surprised to see how easy it was to swing this weapon around in all sorts of directions.)


  • @Baron and @Marc.  Thanks guys.  Great suggestions on the cruisers and battleships.  I’ll update the original post to have their AAA be able to target up to 2 planes per ship.

  • Sponsor

    Couldn’t you get the same effect by giving destroyers 1@1 AA capabilities per combat round, Crusiers and Carriers 1@2, and battleships 1@3. So the mechanic that allows you to fire at multiple planes per round would be flipped to represent better odds of getting 1. Remember, your saying that ships get two types of fire at ships and planes per round, so are you saying that a battleship could possibly take down 4 units in a single combat round?


  • Hello YG.   (I updated the AAA rules … Same rules for now, but I think they read more clearly)
    I am considering that Battleships and Cruisers have AAA that can target up to 2 planes per round.  However, the AAA works exactly like normal AAA in all other aspects.  That means the following (per regular AAA rules):

    • Any single air unit may only be targeted one time by AAA.
    • AAA Casualties are rolled for and removed before regular combat rolls begin.

    Per my proposed House Rule I have added the following:

    • Ships may only score a hit on planes via their AAA … Therefore, ships cannot score hits on planes with their regular combat rolls … Those hits must be applied to other ships.

    I would argue that increasing a Battle Ships AAA roll to hit at 2 or 3, instead of hitting at, 1 would make it too powerful since the hit would be applied to the attacking planes before actual combat begins.

    What I am trying to create with the Naval Air Attack rule is the following:

    • Incentive to launch air Attacks and have the target of the Attacks be the Capital Ships.  Right now it is not viable to launch an air-attack at a large fleet … Because you are going to be trading fighters and TACs for destroyers.  … Also, the attacker gets slaughtered because of all the @4 rolls the defender makes with their fighters and BBs
    • Reduce the incentive to have mind-boggeling large ship stacks.  … Because the Capital Ships can be targeted directly.  (However, 2 rolls of 2 or less must be combined to accomplish this)
    • Increase the need to have a lots of carriers with planes in your fleets … Airplanes and the ship’s AAA would be the only things that can defend against Naval Air Attacks
    • Place a greater value on the small islands and atoll’s in the Pacific Theater.   These will now become a vital resourse.  If one of your carriers gets damaged during a Naval Air Attack, you would lose the planes unless there is an Island to land them on in the same sea-zone (or a land zone that borders the sea-zone).  Therefore, these islands become crucial for parking your fleets around.   The Pacific Islands campaign was deadly … The motivation behind so much violence on some tiny scrap of coral was to secure land to make airstrips and staging bases … This is something that does not get correctly simulated in A&A.

  • I love the effort in these rules. I love the thought that has gone into them, and it is very well made. I agree that searchrolls are outside the scope of this game 🙂

    If I am not mistaken, this is done as a first “suggestion” for the rules, and the purpose is to refined. You might also not have taken the cost of the individual units into concideration (which is probably the most difficult task with such a big change in the rules).

    first, I need to ask a queston:

    Lets say I attack you with planes and roll 6 hits. In which order are they taken? Can i go: “hmm, i’ll let you do the first hit” and if you put a hit on a BB, I can go: “then Ill combine hit number 2 and number 3 to sink that BB”. Is that how it works? Or do I as the attacker start by declaring how many hits i will decide, and then, who assigns the hits first? In this case with 6 hits, if I say : “ill combine 2 dies to chose the last hit”, that would work out quite nice. Then you as the defender can chose to assign 4 hits to 4 BBs, and I will sink the one of them, costing you a total of 24 IPC.

    Now for a few thoughts on different ways, which might be good or bad. First two different ways of assigning hits.
    1: One way is to allow the attacker to chose the hits of every third hit. so you could allow the guy with the planes to chose which ship gets the 3rd, 6th, 9th etc hit.
    2: I really like this one 🙂 . In WW2 Tactical bombers and naval bombers where really great shipkillers. Quite a few ships where killed by stukas if they where within stukarange. How about allowing the attacker to chose every hit rolled by a tactical bomber? You would keep every other rule as they are. This would really make the Tactical bomber a very important plane. You would probably have to increase its cost to 12 or 14 IPC with this. It makes sense since they really where the plane to come in from high altitude and dive down, chosing which ship to target.

    One thing that you must take into concideration when setting the AA rules is the costs. If every plane gets 1@1 against it, and I want to take out a BB using bombers it could get messy. Lets say I go in with 15 bombers, I will then lose 2.5 of them and have 12 bombers left. They will get 4 hits which will allow me to chose 1 BB to die. that is 30 IPC to kill 20. If the 4 hits all go on DDs, they will kill 4*8 = 32 IPC, that is barely a win. 15 bombers vs 15 DDs should be a clear win for the bombers, but it is fairly even at the current rules. Bombers hitting at 2 is just a little bit to low with the AA rules as they stand. This could be improved by having bombers hit at 3 (same as ftrs)


  • THIS POST IS NO LONGER RELEVANT PER THE REVISED RULES SET
    However, the units and die-rolls can still apply per the new rules set.  This just shows how many IPCs of damage are given and received by a Naval Air Attack.

    (I’m waiting for a flight out of Taiwan, so I’ve got lots of time to kill!   😄 ).

    I rolled out some test battles using random.org dice roller.  Here is the scenario:

    DEFENDER:  Has a HUGE pacific-style fleet.  We’re talking BIG …  Subs, destroyers, Cruisers, Battleships … But ONLY one aircraft carrier with 2 fighters on it.

    ATTACKER:  Launching a “Naval Air Attack” with 3xFighters and 3xTACs.

    Battle #1

    • 1st Step, AAA defense: Defense has a TON of ships, but each plane my only be targeted once per regular AAA rules.   Result:   4,2,3,2,3,6 = 0 hits

    • 2nd Step, ATTACKER’S @3 Rolls: 5, 2, 2 = 2 hits, (both @2 or less)

    • 3rd Step, ATTACKER’S @4 Rolls: 2, 4, 3 = 3 hits, (one @2 or less)

    • –- so far the mechanics are just like any other battle … AAA rolls first to weed out any airplanes, then the normal attack rolls take place -----

    • 4th Step, Apply the attacker hits: Attacker decides whether to combine any pairs of hits @2 or less. In this battle, the attacker had 3 rolls of 2 or less.  Therefore, the attacker may decide to combine 2 of these dice into a single hit of the ATTACKER’S choice.  He decides to do it and score a hit directly on the defender’s aircraft carrier.  Result is 1 hit of the ATTACKER’S choice and 3 normal hits of the defender’s choice

    • 5th Step, Defender Rolls: Defender can only defend with the AAA and aircraft.  The AAA already rolled, therefore that leaves them with the two defending fighters @4.  They roll the following: 5,4 = 1 hit

    • Results: (Naval Air Attacks can only last one round.

    • Attacker: Loses 1 Aircraft

    • Defender: 1 hit directly to the aircraft carrier (hope they are in a sea-zone with an Island or land-mass they control.  3 hits to apply as they see fit.

    Battle #2

    • 1st, AAA Defense: 5,3,4,4,3,4 = 0 hits

    • 2nd, Attacker @3 Rolls: 1,2,6 = 2 hits (both @2 or less)

    • 3rd, Attacker @4 Rolls: 6,5,4 = 1 hit (Zero @2 or less)

    • **4th, Apply Hits:  **Attacker combines the @2 or less rolls.  Therefore, one hit of the ATTACKER’S choice and one hit of the defender’s choice.

    • 5th, Defender @4 Rolls: 4,3 = 2 hits

    • Attacker Loses: 2 hits

    • Defender Loses: 1 hit of ATTACKER’S choice, 1 hit of defender’s choice

    Battle #3

    • 1st, AAA Defense: 1,6,1,6,1,2 = 3 hits.  Attacker immediately removes 3 planes

    • 2nd, Attacker @3 Rolls: 1,5 = 1 hit (one hit is @2 or less)

    • 3rd, Attacker @4 Rolls: 2 = 1 hit (one hit @2 or less)

    • **4th, Apply Hits:  **Attacker combines the @2 or less rolls.  Therefore, attacker scores one hit of the ATTACKER’S choice.

    • 5th, Defender @4 Rolls: 2,1 = 2 hits

    • Attacker Loses: 5 hits (ouch!!)

    • Defender Loses: 1 hit of ATTACKER’S choice

    Battle #4

    • 1st, AAA Defense: 3,2,1,3,1,5 = 2 hits.  Attacker immediately removes 2 planes

    • 2nd, Attacker @3 Rolls: 5,1 = 1 hit (one hit @2 or less)

    • 3rd, Attacker @4 Rolls: 1,3 = 2 hits (one hit @2 or less)

    • **4th, Apply Hits:  **Attacker combines the @2 or less rolls.  Therefore, one hit of the ATTACKER’S choice and one hit of the defender’s choice.

    • 5th, Defender @4 Rolls: 3,6 = 1 hit

    • Attacker Loses: 3 hits

    • Defender Loses: 1 hit of ATTACKER’S choice, 1 hit of defender’s choice

    Analysis
    4 battles is a pretty small sample group.  But it shows that the system is not overly favoring either the attacker or the defender.  It also shows that the attacker can successfully launch a Navy Air Attack at a HUMONGOUS fleet, inflict some damage, and expect some of the attacking aircraft to return.

    If we would launch 3 TACs and 3 fighters at a massive fleet with the current rules, I think we all know what the result will be:

    • Defender absorbs the majority of the hits with Battleships and MAYBE Loses a destroyer or two

    • Attacker Loses all 3 TACs and all 3 Fighters

    This is totally unrealistic.


  • Hey Kreuz.  Thanks for the great analysis and suggestions!  You’ve given me some stuff to chew over for sure.

    Let me see if I can address your main points.  (Please let me know if I’m missing anything)

    Order of how hits are applied: Wow!   I didn’t even think about this.  For simplicity’s sake, I intended for the Attacker to apply any “combined/selectable” hits first.  Then the defender can apply the remaining hits as desired.

    However, I really like your ideas for TAC Bombers and Dive Bombers.   This really is the motivation for the Naval Air Attack rule.   A squadron of Avenger’s or a flight of Stukas hammering down on a Battleship or Carrier is going to make the captain drop a load of his own!  ….  Regardless of how many destroyers, Cruisers, or whatever else he has useslessly bobbing around in the nearby vicinty!!    …  But there is simplicity and balance to consider …  Therefore, I simply propose that any Combined rolls are first chosen by the attacker, then the remaining hits are chosen by the defender as normal.   Let me know if you agree and I’ll specify this in the rules with your credit.

    Bombers and Risk to Gain Reward
    I really nerfed the Strat Bombers against ships.   ….  As they should be!  Bombers should not be used to target fleets.  Instead, Fighters and TACs should be used via the new Naval Air Attack capability.    Bombers cruising by at 20+ thousand feet and dropping a load of bombs was easily (and frequently) outmaneuvered by the ships.  …  I understand your concerns for the Bombers only attacking@2 … Why should they even bother attacking at all for so much risk and so little potential gain??  Well, now the ships only defend against them @1 with the AAA.   So let’s do an example:

    • 15 Bombers are attacking a group of 10 destroyers (now cost 7ipcs) and 10 Cruisers.
    • 1st:  Defender Rolls 15 dice @1 for their AAA defence.  (Each plane can only be targeted once … So the remaining 5 ships sit and do nothing). … Any hits immediately removes a bomber.   Let’s say 3 hits are made … Defender got a little bit lucky. (Attacker is out 36ipcs)
    • 2nd:  Remaining 12 Bombers roll @2 or less.   … Las Vegas should plan for 4 hits!  🙂  If Bombers hit @3, it would have been SIX hits!   … The defender should have listened to that “crazy” new admiral who was always pushing for more Cruisers to be converted into escort carriers.   :-D. Anyway, the defender is out only 28 IPCs …  Lesson: don’t attack ships with only Strat Bombers, do it with Fighters and TACs.   If this battle would be re-rolled with a mix of 15 fighters and TACs the result is going to be TOTAL DEVISTATION for the planeless defending fleet!!  …. Also, this is going to eliminate the “Dark Sky’s” problems where mainly Germany was simply spamming Strat Bombers to gain Naval supremacy.

    … The Naval Air Attack is powerful!  But it should hand power to only Fighters and TACs.  For game balance, Bombers need, and should, be nerfed against Naval units. … They also can’t combine hits like fighters and TACs

    <<edit>>. Hey Kreuz … I have been thinking more about your ideas on TAC Bombers/Naval Bombers.  What if instead of combining 2 rolls of 2 or less for fighters and TACs to create a hit where the Attacker selects the casualtie.  What if we instead change it to:

    • A roll of 1 by a TAC bomber in a Naval Battle results in the Die-Roller selecting where to place the hit.

    • Hits above 1 are treated as normal.

    • Hits of 1 are applied first by the die-roller.  Remaining hits are then applied as normal by the player receiving the hits.

    This both SIMPLIFIES the rule and gives some added realism!  It also doesn’t change the game balance when you run the numbers.  Both ways still basically result in a 1 in 6 chance of gaining a selected hit.  …. But now it is only for TACs, so only 1/2 the amounts of rolls are made.

    Think about it and let me know!</edit>

  • '17 '16

    Let the owner chose which capital ship is hit.
    Only TacB hit directly capital ship.
    Fighters still provides +1A bonus when paired to TacB.
    No need to add 2 hits together.

  • '17 '16

    @the_jetset:

    @Baron -  I considered but then decided against giving transports AAA.  I didn’t want to add unintended complexity or balance issues to the game.    This is already a pretty big rule change.   I felt it would be better not to tweak how transport strategies are conducted, as flawed as they may be.  I think i might give it a play test as is (or even somewhat more simplified if posible) to see if it has any unintended compound consequences.  If it works out OK, it might be neat to add AAA to the transports …. However, I can see people making historical arguments for and against doing this.

    @YG - I know what you mean about complexity.  It seems somewhat complex in writing.  But I’ve rolled out several “test battles” … Not actual game testing … Just isolated test battles by myself.  When broken down, it should only add one additional step to a battle, that is the ship AAA rolls against attacking aircraft.   Everything else is handled pretty much the same.

    When you get a chance, please do a couple of test-battles to get ahold of the dynamics and let me know what you think.  Maybe there are some ways to make it smoother.

    I really like the idea of separating ships and air-units as well.   Actually, this would also address many of the issues you mentioned in your dark skies post.   …  Also, I think it is going to place a greater value on the small islands and atoll’s in the Pacific Theater.   Players are going to want to control the islands and have their carrier fleets in the same sea zone.  That way, if a carrier gets damaged by an air-strike, your air units have a place to land.

    I’m totally amazed by this Liberty ship AA armament:
    SS John W. Brown
    Armament:
    As built:1 5-inch (127-mm)/38-caliber stern gun 7 Oerlikon 20 mm cannon in single mounts
    October 1942:1 3-inch (76.2-mm)/ 50-caliber bow gun added 1 Oerlikon 20 mm cannon removed
    June 1943: 2 Oerlikon 20 mm cannon added
    March 1943: 2 3-inch (76.2-mm)/ 50-caliber stern guns added
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_John_W._Brown


  • I updated the Rules Set in the original post to reflect the great opinions and suggestions so far in this thread.

    I also added a “Credits and Special Thanks” section at the bottom of the rules set.

    Thanks a lot!  Looking very forward to play testing this on May 8th.

  • '17 '16

    @the_jetset:

    I updated the Rules Set in the original post to reflect the great opinions and suggestions so far in this thread.

    I also added a “Credits and Special Thanks” section at the bottom of the rules set.

    Thanks a lot!  Looking very forward to play testing this on May 8th.

    TAC Bombers
    Applies to NAVAL BATTLES ONLY:  During attack and defense, if a TAC bomber roles a 1, the DIE ROLLER may choose which ship to apply the hit to.  
    All other roles other than 1 are treated as normal.
    The Die Roller applies their TAC @1 hits first.
    Then, the regular hits are applied as normal by the person receiving them.
    Die Roller may choose to hit ANY enemy ship in the battle, including Transport.

    If you apply the TacB hit first, you may damage some Carrier but it is not very effective.
    You should make some dice play tests while allowing all TcBs hit to be chosen by TcB owner.
    That way, I believe you will prevent warships stacking.
    Otherwise, I don’t see much impact from TcBs snake eyes.
    At most, you may select Cruiser to be sure to sink a bigger fish.


  • Hello Baron.  I am afraid that by giving the TACs the hit selection with EVERY HIT, it is going to swing the game out of balance.  I did test-battles by giving TACs the capability select all of their hits.  The result was that the amount IPCs lost swung very far in favor of the attacker.  … Basically, if TACs can select all of their hits, they are going to cause 11+ IPCs of damage with every hit … or even more if they hit Loaded Transports!

    Also, the focus of Naval Air Attacks isn’t so much to prevent Capital Ship Stacking (although it helps against this) … it is also to give more value to the small islands and atoll’s in the Pacific.

    This is because if a TAC just scores a SINGLE hit on a loaded CV, the planes on the CV will not have anywhere to land unless the fleet is positioned around a friendly island.

    The 2nd goal was to force players to put more emphasis on providing sufficent air cover for their fleets … be it with air bases or carriers.

    In the end, the power of air units at sea is already greatly improved!!!  Ships can ONLY hit air units now with their AAA abilities!

    I would propose the following:  We do some “Test Games” with TACs selecting their hits @1.  If we come to the conclusion that there is not enough punch in the TAC Naval Air Attacks, then we increase it to 2 or less.

  • '17 '16

    Very convincing.

    The “1” roll mechanic is just not OOB.
    If, big if, their is a better mechanic I would rather chose it.
    For now, I have no clear idea.
    I will try to find something which stay inside odds you are looking for.

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