G40 w/Vichy&Free France - work in progress, now mostly final. suggestions plz :)


  • Chris, with regard to potential to weaken the Axis, I kinda disagree.

    The addition of the Vichy takes a huge weight off the Italians to hammer the British.

    While yes, the Germans would have to find another place to build subs in the Med due to non-control of the S France factory, the Vichy taking the burden of stocking the Normandy coast etc with cannon fodder allows Germany to use that money elsewhere.

    At least in test games that I’ve done…

    Or, you could just hit Normandy and S France on G1, strafe Paris in force, and let the Italians have sloppy seconds on I1.  But that would be more detrimental than good for the Axis, IMHO.  Leaving Vichy Africa etc no method to self sustain… and, frankly, against the spirit of the idea of having Vichy in the game in the first place.

  • 2023 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17

    Interesting. As I said, I obviously have not played your version, so you’d know better than I, but I was just curious on your thoughts on that.

    I’ve had versions where I still allowed the Germans to build naval units out of Southern France, but that would count towards the unit max that Vichy could build there as well.

    I’m curious, and maybe I missed this earlier in the thread, so sorry if I did, but what happens to the Axis NO of holding Southern France/Greece/Egypt/Gibraltar? Does this just automatically count still or did you remove this NO?

    I’m also curious if you’ve considered allowing Free French units to build in England as well, as sort of a add-on to the China spawn rule?

    It does look interesting. I may have to try it. Though as CW Marc and myself pointed out, I may change the cruiser NO. I might do it more as a “if Vichy controls at least X amount of their overseas territory”. Maybe three, with North Africa being the reasonable three to choose to hold. It would make them want to make sure it’s garrisoned to keep that NO alive.


  • I’m not sure i see the point of adding a Vichy-France mod for ‘greater historicality,’ while omitting anyway for Germany to take direct control of southern france (i.e., to violate the armistice and forfeit its benefits). That was, after all, the historical outcome of the whole Vichy France episode. It should at least be possible in any mod that seeks to simulate the Vichy France aspect of the war, IMHO


  • @Chris_Henry:

    Interesting. As I said, I obviously have not played your version, so you’d know better than I, but I was just curious on your thoughts on that.

    I’ve had versions where I still allowed the Germans to build naval units out of Southern France, but that would count towards the unit max that Vichy could build there as well.

    I’m curious, and maybe I missed this earlier in the thread, so sorry if I did, but what happens to the Axis NO of holding Southern France/Greece/Egypt/Gibraltar? Does this just automatically count still or did you remove this NO?

    I’m also curious if you’ve considered allowing Free French units to build in England as well, as sort of a add-on to the China spawn rule?

    It does look interesting. I may have to try it. Though as CW Marc and myself pointed out, I may change the cruiser NO. I might do it more as a “if Vichy controls at least X amount of their overseas territory”. Maybe three, with North Africa being the reasonable three to choose to hold. It would make them want to make sure it’s garrisoned to keep that NO alive.

    Actually - I did change the cruiser NO, but you may have missed the post about it.  :)

    @Aldyn:

    Actually, Chris and CWO, I came up with a replacement for the Vichy NO. :)  Hopefully it will be a bit better.  I like the concept anyway.

    First a couple other changes.  The factory in S France NO longer automatically converts to a MIC.  It remains a mIC.  BUT, the Vichy can pay to upgrade it as per normal rules.

    If they do, the aircraft build restriction goes away and their NO kicks in.  (they still cannot build larger ships than DDs though)

    “Delores de Pertinence” - Vichy France gains 5 IPC if they control an operational MIC.

    This is untested as yet, but presents Vichy with some interesting choices.  Ability to build fighters and bombers and 5 IPC, vs spending money to shore up European shores as it were.

    Also remember the term “operational”.  The Allies can shut off this NO if they bomb the factory into rubble, making it a potential money sink.  Also a spot to move AA guns into if you’re a German or Italian player wanting to garrison the place.

    Also, a potential strategy option that just dawned on me is that Vichy could conceivably build an mIC in FIC to pump out infantry/etc as well into SE Asia fight, aiding the Japanese  (if you so choose)…  I had also considered a Vichy Syria mIC build, but my buddy saw that in our test games and squashed Syria ASAP.  But, that was before the FIC correction was made.  (thanks BTW)

    As for the Axis NO involving control of S France etc, Vichy counts as an Axis power, so no disruption there.

    The Free French option to build in London is an intriguing idea that hadn’t occurred to me.  My view I guess is that the French units in London were more refugees than anything, and that the Brits were having enough trouble finding their own men to fight.  Whereas the African spawn guys are part of DeGaulle’s resistance growing.  Maybe a limit of one infantry a round option in London (French expatriates supportive of DeGaulle?) could be workable.

    The German “commandeering” of production capacity idea is interesting as well…  I would say that if another Axis power is garrisoning the Vichy territory with the factory in question, they could produce one unit there a turn (but only of the types that the Vichy is capable to produce - eg. no ships bigger than DDs, and no aircraft unless the Vichy have upgraded their factory in S France)

    I should do another update post rolling up the ruleset as it currently stands with the NO change, and potentially the commandeered production and London expatriate options.

  • 2023 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @Aldyn:

    Actually - I did change the cruiser NO, but you may have missed the post about it.  :)

    Sorry! I must have missed that entirely!

    @regularkid:

    I’m not sure i see the point of adding a Vichy-France mod for ‘greater historicality,’ while omitting anyway for Germany to take direct control of southern france (i.e., to violate the armistice and forfeit its benefits). That was, after all, the historical outcome of the whole Vichy France episode. It should at least be possible in any mod that seeks to simulate the Vichy France aspect of the war, IMHO

    I play where once the Allies invade North Africa (or if they attack Southern France first I guess), the Axis have the opportunity to break the armistice and take the territory for themselves. It may be a bit different though because of the rules that I’ve used in the past. I don’t want to hi-jack the thread, but I had a rule where Axis units were not allowed to be stationed in Vichy territory or Vichy would declare it an act of war. When the Allies land in North Africa, I role a die for each Vichy unit, 1-3 they turn to Free French, 4-6 they stay Vichy and fight the invasion. Once that happens, I allow the Axis to attack Vichy territory, so that they don’t have to sit back and wait for the Allies to take Vichy essentially uncontested.

    You would need to have any sort of reason to break the armistice in Aldyn’s rule set here, and I don’t necessarily see a reason to off the top of my head.


  • FWIW, I was really impressed with Aldyn’s house rule for Vichy and Free French forces.  Indeed I ordered a set with both roundels and light blue Free French Infantry from HBG and tried a couple of plays (Europe 40 2.0 only) with them and find that this makes much enhances the feel of play around the med and allows Italy a more direct option against Egypt.  I even like the NO rule applying the French Med cruiser, as it means Vichy is incentivized to greatly prize and protect their fleet as both factions did historically.  Speaking of HBG units, I wonder if one-hit early war battleship might be a better fit for the Vichy med fleet?

    Under the IC NO, I’ll guess that the US will land in Morocco and be in position to SRB it, before it could be put to much use under the new rule so maybe a 4IPC cruiser rule is a better fit, especially if FIC and Madagascar start as Vichy?


  • Here is a suggestion for Germany attacking Vichy:
    Germany may only attack Southern France after which the following takes place:
    Vichy units in southern France and the Mediterranean are destroyed immediately.
    All other Vichy join Free France.


  • That sounds about right


  • So this rule seems to highly benefit the Axis, right?  What is the balance for the Allies?  Also, when France is liberated, do they get the 12 IPC build bonus - or is that removed?


  • @Carolina:

    So this rule seems to highly benefit the Axis, right?  What is the balance for the Allies?  Also, when France is liberated, do they get the 12 IPC build bonus - or is that removed?

    Benefit, yes.  Highly?  I wouldn’t go that far.  The Vichy can be both a help and a hindrance to the Axis, depending on how they are used/abused.

    The Allies in return get a faction modeled after China (Free France) that can be crucial in the fight for Cairo, in addition to  being a general thorn in the side of the Axis.

    As for when France (Paris) is liberated, the Vichy government disbands, existing Vichy territories and units revert to mainline France, and rejoin the Allies.  If Paris falls again, after being liberated, Vichy doesn’t rise again - France functions from that point as any other power who lost their capital.

    The one-time free 12 IPC worth of units upon the liberation of Paris stands as in OOB.

    –-
    Vichy can actually be quite a liability to the Axis if the Allies go straight for Paris.  If they manage to take Paris, even for a part of a round, all the work an Axis player put into the Vichy would switch back to the Allies for the rest of the game.

    Which…  in trying to prevent a potential Paris strike, Germany would be forced to spend resources that would otherwise go to stomp the Russians.


  • How many posts do I need before I can post test-game photos?


  • @Aldyn:

    How many posts do I need before I can post test-game photos?

    About 15 or 20, I think.

  • 2023 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @Carolina:

    So this rule seems to highly benefit the Axis, right?  What is the balance for the Allies?

    You’d also have to remember that the French IPC’s would be able to be used. OOB, Madagascar, Syria, and the three central African territories are all just dead IPC’s until an Axis power takes them and an Allied power retakes them. This way, there’s realistically 5 extra IPC’s to be gained for the Allies as well. They won’t have a hard time taking Madagascar, French West Africa and French Central Africa from Vichy, and Syria may go back and forth a bit, but you get the idea. Between that and the French NO here, that’s 7-8 extra IPC’s for the French/Allies.

    The Axis really are only gaining the potential Vichy NO bonuses, and the two extra IPC’s from splitting FIC and Southern France economies between Vichy and whatever major power. I’d still maybe take the Vichy NO down from 5 IPC’s though. That plus the two IPC’s mentioned above gives them 7 bonus IPC’s, giving the Allies a minimal advantage in IPC’s gained (assuming they hold Syria). I think a Vichy NO should probably be worth the same as a Free French NO, but that’s just my opinion.


  • Ok, back with edits from playtesting and incorporating suggestions from the community here.  Edits made to OP.

    Sorry it’s been so long…  real life is a beast!

  • '17 Customizer

    Look forward to an updated/play tested version.  Possible to update the thread with the latest/“final” rules?

    Looking to add this to CDG 1939 v3 setup with the neutral blocks (Iberia, Islamic, etc.)

    Cheers…


  • Naval French:
    random die roll on French fleet units either:
    Scuttled, Pro axis, Pro allies, or Free French

    Air force gone

    Fixed setup on army units in Vichy areas

    French West Africa
    Madagascar
    Levant States
    Vichy
    Morocco
    Algeria
    Tunisia

    Attack one your at war with all of them

    Axis can fly over and travel (move) thru, not remain unless Allies either first attack FF

    One FF in London ( extra)


  • Hello there.  I’ve really enjoyed reading up on those these rules and I’m sure I’ll have fun implementing them as well.  A couple questions though.  With the Free French I read that they’ll be implementing the “China mechanism” where I get no industrial complexes are used.  My question is “does that mean they can only place infantry and artillery?”  Also i assume that Germany can collect tribute IPC’s from ANY Vichy territory with German units occupying it.  Thanks for any clarifications.

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