Japan is too strong?

@ShadowHAwk:

It does not have to, japan can kill any 1 country easy at the expense of not attacking others. IF you want to take out china for a few rounds sure UK-Pac will be making 24 a turn, anzac 14 and they will have a good time building up. By the time you get to the money islands they will have a garison on them so it takes you 2 transports each and a big mixed fleet to destroy any transport that does not have half your starting fleet with them.

My thoughts exactly.  Said with a smile: the reply from an Axis player cannot always just be “Well then I’d just do A, B and C” without any regard to the fact that the Allied players ALSO get to purchase units, move, etc.

@ShadowHAwk:

Those planes cannot be on carriers and fight in china and be on japan at the same turn.
Those 13 land units are needed on your transports to take islands remember. So you wont have that much in china.
You keep telling you can counter anything because you got a lot of units but those units cannot be used everywhere at the same time. The whole point of the allies isnt to attack you where you are strongest but to attack you where you are weakest. If the russian 18 inf deside to take machuria while your fleet is off java and the US fleet parks itself off japan and takes korea india can pretty much go turtle up for 1 round the next round your fleet wont be off java anymore and china will have units in the north for a change.

India in this scenario can still build mechs and invade into china with the help of their airforce and at the same time defend india. And if your fleet is off Java what is there to prevent me from moving the US fleet next to japan and take korea? No your fleet cannot do it and your 21 planes will be only 12 by this time as there will be 6 on your carriers and chances are you lost 3 somewhere.

Thank you Shadow for expressing my exact sentiments when this discussion pops up.  All of the arguments I’ve made for the Allies not being completely outclassed in this game come back to one fundamental principle: the Axis cannot do everything at once.  As the Allies, your job is not easy, but it’s simple: make the Axis do too much.  Japan has a deadly airforce, but it can’t be in five or six places at the same time.

The Axis (specifically Japan) might not be able to do everything at once, but they are able to do at least 1, usually multiple things very well. If multiple Allied powers put stacks in range of the Japanese air force on the account that Japan can’t hit them all, Japan will just hit the most valuable/troublesome one (usually US navy if you advance to Carolines too early), come out positive and then swing around to the other stacks after a couple turn delay, leaving the Allies crippled in some place for minor gains elsewhere.
It’s also the reason its worth it to airblast the Chinese Rd2 in Szechwan if they stack there; yeah you lose 4 planes, but now you don’t even have to worry about the Chinese giving you one of these “split-decisions” later.

“give the opponent so many good targets that he can’t hit them all” is not a winning strategy IMHO

Someone else earlier said that you don’t have to beet Japan on the Pac side, you just can’t lose.

What he meant by this is you defend Sidney and Hawaii at all costs (known as the 4th map because that’s the line where the maps join on the Pac side). Both Sidney and Hawaii are difficult to take, much less hold for a round with a US player with a pulse.

What you try to do is stabilize the situation as best you can, and delay the Orange Godzilla for as long as you can. I generally will buy Pac w/USA the first couple turns (prob a bit more as the game goes on). You don’t look to over power Japan necessarily, you’re looking more to get into a stand off or get him to buy carriers. When he buys carriers and you are in a stand off it ties up his air power (plus he isn’t buying as many land units). You try to snipe an island or trade dd blockers with all Pac powers etc….and if you get a chance to strike take it. China is going to fall pretty fast in most games unless Japan gets bad dice in the first Yunnan battle. As China you trade Yunnan a couple times if you can, then back up to the acme Chinese wall at the Russia boarder in a defending retreat (meaning you make small attacks if able to take out weakly defended Japanese territories that are in reach. When you get to the Russian boarder the Japanese have 2 options, hit the Chinese stack and lose the bulk of their ground units, or side step you to give the Russians more pressure.

While all this is going on UK India has either bulked up to make the Japanese hit on Calcutta hurt (costing all the Japanese ground units and some air), or have made preparations to evacuate it to Persia/Caucasus.You might even decide trade India by pulling out to counter attack (the last one sucks, but by time Japan is taking India there isn’t going to be more then 5 IPCs left to hand over the second time and it will delay Japan from building there for a round plus you get to kill some Japanese ground units.

Back to China, once your China stack gets to the Russian boarder much depends on how things are going on the Euro side. If UK has done its job and the RAF (6 to 10 ftrs) is sitting in Moscow, the Germans have been delayed from taking the Russian capital for 1-3 turns (maybe longer depending on what the Euro axis have there). Can the Russians send an AA gun and a couple inf and temporarily spare some mobile units/air for China (not to get killed, but to delay the Japanese from hitting the Chinese stack because the odds are like 20% for them to do so) There also should be UK mobile units in the picture coming up through Russia and could divert into China’s back door as well. It is in Russians best interest to help defend China, but you need to have that planned out. Is it one of the retreating Siberian AA guns, or do you send one from Moscow and the Siberians will be replacing it?

The allies need to tie both maps together and use all the resources at there disposal. Unlike the axis, the allies need a cooperative effort to have a chance.

Thank you Bill that was exactly the kind of advice I was looking for!

@ColonelCarter:

The Axis (specifically Japan) might not be able to do everything at once, but they are able to do at least 1, usually multiple things very well. If multiple Allied powers put stacks in range of the Japanese air force on the account that Japan can’t hit them all, Japan will just hit the most valuable/troublesome one (usually US navy if you advance to Carolines too early), come out positive and then swing around to the other stacks after a couple turn delay, leaving the Allies crippled in some place for minor gains elsewhere.
It’s also the reason its worth it to airblast the Chinese Rd2 in Szechwan if they stack there; yeah you lose 4 planes, but now you don’t even have to worry about the Chinese giving you one of these “split-decisions” later.

I still think Szechwan can be defended well enough that, as the Allies, I’d welcome Japan to waste air on it, but otherwise I don’t disagree with most of this.  Japan can certainly do a few things at a time and be very effective about it, and the Axis will absolutely win the game if Japan plays well and the Allies don’t coordinate.

What I’m disputing in this thread is the prevailing argument that every single Allied move in the Pacific can be countered with “Well, I’d just take my planes there.”

@Tolstoj

We’ve had some spirited discussions in our messages to each other.  All respect, I’m still perplexed by some of your statements.  If you JDOW3 you’re telling me you’re going to take and hold all the DEI, still have enough ground units eliminate China the next round and hold off any successful counter attack from Allied ships?

Let me ask: in the JDOW3 scenario you gave, where is your fleet positioned at the end of J2/start of J3?  Paint the picture for me; Japan just collected it’s money at the end of its second turn.  Where is your fleet, where are your planes and what is on the ground in China?  Let’s assume Russia has the 18 inf and 2 AA guns in Amur, Japan took back Yunan, China has enough to take it on its turn, but turn 3 Japan will take and hold it, Anzac has Java and Sumatra, just a couple of guys on each.

Thanks Tolstoj.  Alright, let’s look at the Allied options and ask some questions

• First, I’m going to steal a question from ShadowHAwk: what do you have in SZ 36/37 to protect those transports?  You need enough there to stop a UK/Anzac 1-2 punch.  SZ37 especially would require a lot of protection, as, in this scenario, India could hit it with a BB, DD (I’m assuming the C went over to Africa) and 3 planes, followed by AZ hitting it with a DD, C and 3 fighters

• So let’s go with your fleet at Caroline and you have transports in SZ36 with some escorts.  Right off the bat I know that as India (or Anzac) and I’m doing the following non-combat move: DD in SZ 37, preventing Japan from taking Sumatra on J3, assuring that Japan can’t get the DEI in round 3.  Japan can target the rest of the islands J4, J5 like you said, but in between you’re gonna have Anzac and US hitting those islands, trying to pick off sections of the Japanese navy, etc.

• As far as China goes, take back Yunan and non-combat as follows: if Japanese planes are in Kwangsi, retreat to Shensi, where the planes could not reach (save for the str bombers).  China would be looking at roughly 12 inf and a fighter (not counting what Russia may come in to help with) and Japan’s counter attack would mostly be 1’s.  If Japan has their planes in a spot that can reach Shensi, head back to Sikang and eventually north.  Japan can absolutely drive China back, no doubt.  But China can hang around and be a pest

• Another China idea: If Russia can walk into Manchuria on R3, or take it with ease, China could save its income for a turn (in my games China usually makes 15 turn 1 and 12 turn 2) and on C3 purchase 9 inf and place them in Manchuria.  What a pain it would be for Japan to kick that force out of the area

You’re right about the Japanese air force being able to dictate where it goes.  The argument is simply that it cannot be everywhere at once, meaning the Allies can make progress on some fronts.  Will it be enough?  Maybe, maybe not.

Good morning gents,

I generally agree that the G40 game balance favors the axis.  This is not based on their advantage in pieces, or even economy–it is based on their initiative and their “white player” first mover advantage.  There are no allied strategies that can be pre-supposed to be successful until you see how the game plays out.  And, as you do gain this information, the Axis are better able to adapt and take advantage of this than the Allies are.

I do have several suggestions that make the Allies somewhat harder to beat in the Pacific.

1)  Move the Chinese holdout to Kansu, not Sikang or Szechwan (“Chicom”).  Retaking Yunnan is tempting, but if Japan already has their MIC down, it is probably better to draw them Northwest than South.  If Japan intends to attack Russia, being up north is not a problem for them, but if they have to chase you that direction, it puts them out of position to attack UK Pacific.  If Japan does not have a plan to strike Russia, it will be fairly obvious (abandons Manchuria), and it would then argue for keeping all 18 infantry there to pin down any Japanese troops (and block a retake of Korea, if that happens).
2)  Russia will often have to move their pieces West, but if they don’t, and Japan doesn’t build its MIC in the north, then it cannot possibly defend against Russia, China, UKPac, ANZAC and US.
3)  The primary US goal is to pressurize SZ6 and take Korea, going south puts you way out of position.  Building a Naval Base on Wake or Midway makes it impossible to screen you out from SZ 6.  Even if you lose the battle, you can reduce the threat, expend his kamikazes and follow up.  If his fleet goes south, you can screen it by blocking SZ 21-23and “break him in two” by preventing his separate fleets from all converging back on you. 
4) on J3-J4, Japan will try to make threshold income by taking the spice islands, and this is what will cost them a bunch of their ships.  Fighters on Australia, malasia and NGuinea and US carriers can attack detached fleets.
5) After Taranto, land your planes on Malta, not Syria.  This pulls Italy west instead of East just like Chicom pulls them north not south.  If Italy can cross the oil states, UK Pac is finished.
6) if Japan threatens UK Pac directly, buy only infantry and camp within one space of your capital.  Their goal should be to take over Ceylon and use it as a landing pad.  Screen SZ 37.  But if they don’t, packs of UK mechs and tanks can ward any Japanese stack within range.  You will likely only get to make a single attack to retake Siam, Malasia, Yunnan etc…Make it count.
7) Declare war with UK2-UK3 if this is the only way you can gain your bonuses on a certain turn.  The penalty in the Pac game is that the US loses its bonus, but there is no bonus in the Global setup.
8) you cannot directly bomb Japan into submission or retake it with force.  You have to smash its income by destroying its ability to move in and out of SZ6.

Japan can do everything, and can smash any stack, but they have to telegraph that intention at least one turn ahead.  They can take all the territory they like, the only reply is to trim them back slightly.

Many of the conversations here try to focus on the exact detail of where certain ships and captures will occur on turns 3-6, and how many of those moves can be accomplished simultaneously.    This isn’t very productive, as it tends to exaggerate how thinly Japan can practically be spread, and implies a false sense of certainty about what they will do.  They do have a ridiculous amount of planes–and it actually is quite a good idea to use the Japan Dark Skies strat to kill every Chinese piece even with sacrifices.  You will not be able to focus every US dollar on the Pacific, but you can get pretty close.  Beating either axis player in detail is uncertain, cannot be accomplished by naked gambits or stratagems, and requires patience.

However, I have never seen a scenario where (for example) all the UK air and all the Siberian forces converge on the defense of Moscow.  Everyone says that this is possible and desirable, but it never happens, and Russia falls.  I am not that certain that G40 is all that unbalanced, assuming that the Allies take extreme measures to prevent endgame.  It is simply an unplayably long game (More than 10 turns, tending to 14-16, we did 8 in 12 hours…) that people analyze on the basis of assumptions, the conduct of the early game, and their personal observations and biases.

Brief reply since I’m leaving work shortly (clearly I’ve been working hard today)

-I did miscalculate Shensi.  This is what happens when you try to post while on a conference call.  So Sinkang would be the right move on C2 (after taking back Yunan with as few units as possible)

-You can probably take the islands J4, no doubt.  But can you hold them all, every turn?  Can you take them back every turn?  Maybe, but you’re also doing it at the cost of ships and ground units.  All I’m trying to say about the DEI is that holding them is more difficult than acquiring them in the first place

-Re: Russian infantry, it’s simple: turn one all Siberian troops move to Buryatia.  R2 they all move to Amur, R3 they all move to Manchuria.  As Japan, are you willing to commit the resources needed to attack them in Amur on J2?  Again, you can do this, but you’re going to lose a good chunk in the process and set yourself back in other areas.

I just observed a game where on J3 Japan had 15 different 100% combats, only 2 of which could be countered by Allies on the next turn (neither one important, and neither counter sustainable), while creating no positional weakness.

It was a very on-point demonstration of the power in the Japan G40 setup. Allies didn’t make any mistakes that I could see, and there was no particular brilliance involved it was just what was there for Japan to do.

I haven’t tested this, but what if while you were setting up the game, you put 1 extra Chinese infantry on all the provinces they control, and then don’t do any other setup changes or bid?