• OK, in another thread I promised to post this, so now I am making good on the promise :-)  These are alternate Japan naval strategies for if you DON’T do Pearl Harbor 2.  These strategies both are designed for use with an overall strategy of Japan focusing it’s attention in Asia.

    Strategy 1 (fairly common):
    In J1, consolidate capital ships to Japan sea zone (except for Japan BB which will be being used for the SFE landings, unless Russia took Manchuria in which case ALL of your navy will be in Japan sea zone to support the Manchuria re-take).  Build your tranny fleet for shuttling forces to Asia.  Caveat, you may need to use the Solomon Sub to chase down that UK tranny in the Indian Ocean, especially if it headed for Australia.  This consolidation will definitely prevent the US from coming at you with the Hawaii naval forces plus the Western fig.

    By your next move, you will know if the US is going to engage you in the Pacific.  If not (and it is not wise for the US to do so), send your capital ships plus one tranny south toward Australia.  Send AT LEAST one of your figs along with the carrier, two if you can spare the extra in Asia.  Pick up INF along the way (Okinawa and Caroline) and attack Australia with 2 BB’s, 1/2 figs, and 2 INF.  If by chance you fail, retreat air power and re-try with INF grabbed from New Guinea.  First try for Aus will be in J3, if re-try is needed will be J4 (most likely will win in J3 with 2 BB’s you are going to kill at least 1 of those 2 INF, the fighters will get the other one, and you will AT MOST lose 1 INF.

    In J4, take 1 INF from Australia (leaving 1 if possible) and grab 1 INF from Solomons and take New Zealand.  OR, if UK is strong in the middle east, grab both INF from Australia (if only 1, grab the other from East Indies) and head for India to take and hold it (again, 2 BB’s, 2 figs, 2 INF, plus any additional land and air forces from the continent).  Then proceed through the Middle East and in to Africa, being sure to snag Madagascar as quickly as possible since that territory is very unlikely to change hands again.

    If you did not have to head for India in J4 and took New Zealand, you can now either decide to raid Pacific islands, head for Panama, or skirt Cape Horn headed for Brazil; or start back for Africa after taking NZ.

    This is a “safe” series of moves because if the US shows ANY build of forces in Western that MIGHT pose a threat to Japan, you can withdraw those naval forces back to Japan for defense (or interdict in mid-Pacific on offense).

    Option 2:  Radical Strategy.

    Consolidate in Japan as above.

    In J2, move all capital ships plus 2 figs, 1 tranny and 1 INF.  Grab second INF from Wake.  Attack Hawaii.  If US pulled their forces toward Panama with the intent of heading for Europe, this J2 strike MIGHT give them pause; helping Germany.  With 2 BB’s, 2 Figs, and 2 INF, you are almost assured a victory.  If you lose all of your INF at Hawaii on J2, send the empty tranny back to Japan for “bridgework” into Manchuria, and bring a fresh loaded tranny back to Hawaii for J3.  Wait to see if US fleet heads through Panama canal or turns back to take on Japan, or picket Western.

    You see, this delayed strike on J2 against Hawaii is GREAT against the KGF strategy.  You can face Hawaii with no naval protection, take it and hold it.  US then has to decide whether to continue KGF with their fleet, or turn back to eitehr defend against, or attack the Japan fleet:  a fleet of 2 BB’s, a carrier, 2 figs, a fighter, and your sub after it is done killing hte UK India tranny and catches back up with the rest of the fleet.  On both offesne AND defense this fleet is awesome, and US Pacific fleet has no hope to win against it.

    If US stays in the Pacific, skirt them and land in the available territory:  Mexico, Panama, Midway, Alaska or Western.  If they proceed into the Atlantic and use land/air forces to protect Western, then it gets intersting…

    In J3, FOLLOW the US fleet to Panama.  Land your INF there to take it, and then in J4, go THROUGH the canal and into the Atlantic, picking up your INF along the way.  Now you get to create some REAL havoc for the US and UK.  Potentially defensless tranny’s either along the Eastern, or along the coast of Africa.  Free IPC’s in Cuba and Brazil. Japan counter-attacks in Africa…

    With a Japan fleet of 2 BB’s, a carrier, 2 figs, a sub and a tranny in the Atlantic… well that great transport of US forces is now in doubt for a few rounds, and the UK may suffer as well.  By J5, that fleet can be off Eastern US, or in Brazil.  By J6 it can be in UK waters, or somewhere in the mid Atlantic or along Africa.  It is a fleet that attacks with 2 4’s, 2 3’s, a 2 sneak, and a 1 plus cannon fodder; but defends as 4 4’s, a 3, a 2, and a 1.  US and Uk are going to have to do some SERIOUS work to take out that fleet, pulling a lot of airpower out of Russia to help out, or spending a lot of IPC’s on something other than forces being transported to Norway and Karelia.

    Is it a suicide run?  Eventually.  It’s greatest threat is only maintained so long as that loaded tranny forces folks to pay attention to IPC losses.  Once the land forces are gone, it is a suicide squad against Allied navy.

    Of course the whole time that fleet is on the move, Japan is building tranny’s and loading them and sending those forces against Asia…

    So folks, you tell me, is that second option one that might give the US and the KGF something to think about?

  • And here is the counter for the Allies…

    First and foremost, the Russian “Yakut Consolidation” is a CRITICAL strategy.  SFE is sacrificed, as is an “extra” 3 IPC’s from taking Manchuria in R1.  The advantage is that Japan is going to need 3 rounds to build up enough forces to counter the 8 units in Yakut, instead of taking Yakut in J1 or J2.  The Yakut Consilidation works in either an RR game or a regular game.  Russia simply needs to do the same thing in the East that they do in the west:  pool their resources and make an impenetrable boundary against the Axis.

    Second, US does NOT send all of it’s available fighters to a new UK AC if one was built in UK1.  The Western US fig goes to the US CARRIER, and the Western US BB and Tranny (with 2 INF) goes to Hawaii.  This gives the US a defense of 3 4’s, a 3, a 2 and a 1 against the Japan consolidated navy (2 BB’s, 2 figs, a carrier, a loaded tranny, and maybe a sub;  2 4’s 2 3’s, a 2 sneak, a 1, and expensive/loaded cannon fodder.  US Defense 18 points in 6 units against a Japan attack of 17 with 6 units.

    US may well get taken out, but Hawaii will still be under US control (with 3 INF), and the Japan fleet is toast.  Even if 1 or 2 Japan units survive, they are no real threat to the US.  And if Japan shifts tranny’s from Asia to attack US with those few remaining capital ships, US will see it coming 2 rounds ahead, and the invasion WILL fail; and Russia will have breathing space.  US builds at least 1 fig in US1 for later shipment to UK.

    UK will not have enough US air support to allow for a UK naval build in UK1 (after Germany sinks the initial UK fleet).  UK holds off and builds in UK2:  Carrier, tranny’s and land forces.  US sends original Eastern US fig plus the new fig from US1 build to UK AC in US2, providing more than enough defensive power against the depleted German AF.

    By the end of round 2, Japan will have only their tranny fleet without capital ships for protection.  US will be free to send forces to Europe without fear of Japan sending capital ships against PacRim or into Atlantic Ocean, or into the Indian Ocean to take Africa and the Middle East.

  • I forgot one other thing…

    When the US moves forward to Hawaii, Japan could simply ignore them… a Mexican Standoff.

    Japan becomes increasingly protected as their tranny fleet grows, and could even build a sub here and there to give the US the jitters, or a second carrier for their fighters to land on between uses in Asia; the US could do the same.  Actually, getting the US to comit naval forces to reinforce the Hawaii fleet is about the BEST thing the Allies can do FOR the Axis.

    But my Allied “defense” can be partially defeated by Japan ignoring the US at Hawaii even after they consolidate.  The net benefit to Germany of not having those ships in the Pacific is still positive for the Axis.  Germany may still be able to beat up the UK2 navy enough in G3 to prevent Allied landings in the rest of R3 (meaning Germany has built approximately 40 new INF units by the time the Allies are finally able to start landing troops in Europe or Africa.

    And it does not slow down the landing of Japan forces in Asia one bit to sit and watch the US navy rusting at Pearl

  • First of all I should say that playing without RR and no bid is not worth playing for both sides, because it will be too easy for the allies. I didn’t see that mentioned in your strat.

    My comments on your strat.
    Australia should be left alone till J4/5. The reason for this is easy. You need all you trannies and your capital ships for your initial strike on Russia. There is where your money is. Not the 3 IPC’s you win with NZ and AUS.

    The Pearl Harbor attack should always be made! The cost benefit will be in your advantage. You either attack it with everything you have (2 BB’s, 1 Bomb, 2 fighters[1 from Japan and 1 from phil], 1 carrier and a sub. Or you take it with minimum force, but you want those ships out!

    Bridge enough infantry to Asia mainland, 4-5 trannies will do the job. And don’t think of building an fac till J3/4, maybe even later. You help the Germans most by putting pressure on Russia fast! Just build inf and ship them over, don’t worry about tanks yet, because your planes should do the job.

    My optimal J1 turn. (RR/no bid)
    Buy 2 trans and 3 inf.

    Attack Pearl with minimum forces. (sacrifice your BB instead of your bomb if you have to)
    Attack China with almost everything you got. (You don’t want an IC on Sinkang and India!)

    Ship 2 inf from phil to Man
    ship 2 inf to man, one from wake and one from Jap

    Always keep in mind that you want Russian IPC asap! Don’t waste inf, because they are your main force in the beginning of the game. Don’t lose aircraft, because that is your main offense in the game. Try to help the germans in Africa if you can (if they still have it after turn 4/5)

  • Switch,

    With regards to a Japanese fleet roaming the Atlantic, since the US will have its entire fleet, I think the Allies have plenty of options to counter.  Also, the potential IPC gain by this is really minimal and not worth the opportunity cost as the bulk of available, sustainable growth for Japan is in Asia.Â

    Now if the Japanese fleet is sucessful in disrupting the “shuck-shuck”, even for a couple of turns, in the Atlantic its worth it.  But I think an experienced player will not be rattled by this and will be able to deal with this fleet, either by sinking it, or by shadowing it with the US fleet and a couple of transports to retake any ipc loses (keeping the UK capital ship and the bulk of the transports in the N. Sea to maintain the 'shuck-shuck").

  • when I play as Japan I always bomb the hell out of Pearl Harbor and get my attack moving in Sinkiang, China, and Eastern Russia in J1.  The 3 IPCs from Australia and New Zealand can wait, the Solomon Islands sub can intercept the UK transport ship heading towards Australia if necessary.

  • Are you guys even paying attention to what NC is writing? He clearly states in the first sentence that these are for if you are NOT going to pearl harbor. Therefore, any comments on this thread should be, in my opinion, related to this. If you want to discuss the merits of pearl harbor take it to another discussion, it has been talked about ad nauseum. I’m glad to see nc’s posts, which are "alternate"s and don’t feel the need to debate pearl harbor five million times. There are plusses and minusses, well discussed, just like a manchuria attack.

  • Switch,

    The Japanese fleet is no match offensively against the large number of transports (in addition to the full US and remaining UK capital ships) the Allies will have.

    HOWEVER, upon further reflection, I think this might actually work if the Japanese simply parks this fleet off E. Canada (which effectively shuts off the shuck-shuck).  While the combined Allied fleet is more powerful, both the UK and US fleet will still be weaker than the Japanese fleet and will suffer losses in trying to sink this fleet.  Defensively, I think the Japanese fleet might be able to hold its own (transports cannot attack, except as cannon fodder).  Additionally, there is the possibility of Germany landing fighters on the AC to replace lost Jap fighters, or even Japan sending fighters to Germany then reinforcing again after the UK attack.

    I’m going to have to try this to see what happens - I’m still not sure if the Allies will have enough navy/airpower to clear this fleet without losing the shuck for more than a turn…

  • I am actually just glad the idea sparked discussion.

    It was one of those “hair brained” ideas that I have never tested (need a compentant real-live human to work with this one on) that seemed like a game-changing, something new, what the hell is THAT? kind of thing for an Allied player to deal with.

    Of course, here is the REALLY interesting part…
    What if Japan did that Air Force redeployment I posted elsewhere so that the figs reached Europe about the same time that Japan fleet was able to attack UK sea zone, and all of that VERY valuable allied navy…
    Japan’s Capital Ships, plus AF, against a mostly transport navy with capital ships split trying to protect Eastern US trannies and UK trannies form the invading Japan fleet…  Could Japan pick those fleets off piecemeal; allowing Germany a few rounds to hammer Russia solo and break their back?

    Anyway.  Glad folks enjoyed the concept.

    BTW:  I almost NEVER attack Pearl, and I don;t plan to change that strategy.  My Japan fleet has more important things to do that kills a fig, a carrier, and a sub.

  • Switch,

    Didn’t mean to imply that I was done with the conversation or that I didn’t enjoy it.  Just thought you might be interested in what others, who might not post here anymore, thought of this concept.

    Yeah, with additional fighters in Europe, the fleet is a threat…but I’m not sure the Allies would let this happen.  They will have plenty of time to see the Jap fleet coming and can plan accordingly, perhaps with a turn purchasing bombers for an assault on this fleet.

  • I am still reading the old threads.

    From what I have read so far, the only reason why I would consider Pearl is to eliminate a potential threat to my trannies and free up my Capital Ships completely for Indian Ocean duty.  This is something I LOVE to do with my Japan capital ships (plus a tranny or 2).

    So why would I not do Pearl if I wanted to leave “unguarded” trannies in Japan?  Simple… I wait for the US to move away in US1, then I know I have AT LEAST 1 round to prepare for any attempt to come after my trannies.  Stage the capital ships off Burma, and if US moves in, go back to Japan, if not, head for India, Mid-east, Africa, or Australia.  If, after I move, US moves in, I shift some AF, drop a couple of subs or an AC (I have IPC’s available to do so as Japan by this point) and let them come on in if they want.

  • There is one statement in those old threads that is unsupported, and rather outlandish standing by itself.  But it comes from one of our mods, so I am re-posting it…

    “If japan doesn’t pearl I, as America, will take France on turn 3 and keep it.” by dezrtfish

    What difference does the Pacific fleet make in France?  It only adds 1 BB, 1 fig and 1 tranny to the mix.  Counter that with additional IPC loses by UK and USSR from Japan focusing on those two targets instead, and it should more than counter the minimal US gain.

    Also, I notice that folks call a second German strike on Allied navy a poor decision.  I am sorry, but I have found that, if it means stopping Allied land forces from landing in Europe, then ANY cost of airforce is worth the risk.  Lose a couple of 4’s on defense for destroying trannies and stopping 2 INF per round from landing in Europe.  Sounds like a GOOD trade to me.  The longer you can keep US and UK from landing forces, the longer Germany lives, and the longer Japan has to do its thing.  And US moving the PAC fleet to Paris in 3 rounds… well that is 3 rounds of Japan unrestricted.  Japan will hold SFE, Yakut, China, Sinkiang, India, Australia, NZ at a MINIMUM and most likely one of Kaz/Novo/Evenk, plus Persia or Syria, and probably grabbed Hawaii while they were at it; this time without much resistance (1 INF).

  • I notice that folks call a second German strike on Allied navy a poor decision.  I am sorry, but I have found that, if it means stopping Allied land forces from landing in Europe, then ANY cost of airforce is worth the risk.

    I generally consider a second strike on the UK navy bad because of the loss of the fighters.  Germany needs to keep the fighters for the following reasons:

    1. Most importantly,the fighters add teeth to the Axis defense.  Their value is clearly shown when the Allies strafe E. Europe.  Without these fighters, the Allies will have an easier time in the long run in invading Germany.

    2. The fighters enable Germany to trade Ukraine with Russia, otherwise Germany cannot retake this without applying more ground forces (which will be lost on the next turn) than necessary.  This 3 ipc gain a turn adds up.

    3. In the event of the German Sweden maneuver they assist on a German strafe (or two) of the Allies in Norway.  Or they can do this anyway if Norway is lightly held, perhaps by the Russian tanks.  It might be worth a fighter to take out two or three Russian tanks.

    4. The fighters are useful in Africa to prolong this German occupation.

    5. The fighters keep the Allies honest with their transports.  If Germany has fighters, you don’t see any lone transports floating around.

    6. The fighters add firepower if/when Germany decides on a kamikazee attack (take it or die trying) on Karelia (or Moscow).  Most often this is either in combination with the Japanese assualt or a desperation move where the German player realizes the Axis are falling behind and only lucky dice can save the game.

    Taking out the navy on G2 only slows down the Allies 2 turns (actually less because they still have their infantry purchase).  The above reasons will gain Germany more than this IMO.

  • So you recommend only a single initial tear at Allied shipping?

    If so, do you go for the US tranny also, or just the UK surface fleet (excluding India tranny, which I leave to Japan to handle)?

    And then you pool those figs for use for trading a 3 IPC territory that both Germany AND Russia will get paid for, and allow US and UK to start landing forces in Turn 3?

    I just don;t see it.  If, as everyone here seems to say, the death knell of the Axis is Allied reinforcements in karelia (and then in Russia), then why would you ever do anything that would allow those reinforcements to land FASTER?

  • If, as everyone here seems to say, the death knell of the Axis is Allied reinforcements in karelia (and then in Russia), then why would you ever do anything that would allow those reinforcements to land FASTER?

    Well I consider it more important for Germany to be able to keep the bulk of the Allies forces in Karelia, rather than in Moscow.  Without the fighters, the Allies will be able to put more in Moscow (usually after a Germany kamikazee assault on Karelia at the critical point) which will make it harder for Japan to take Moscow.

  • I posted my reply as a new thread… a no-bid Axis victory.  It seemed to fit more for a new thread (since it was German AF usage) rather than the existing thread of Japan sending their fleet into the Atlantic.

  • I’m not sure I understand your strategy. Why wouldn’t the US simply take the canal back? How then could you sail through it?

  • @trihero:

    I’m not sure I understand your strategy. Why wouldn’t the US simply take the canal back? How then could you sail through it?

    The US would have to take it back on the same round I took it in order to prevent me from sailing through.  And in most cases, the US does not have multiple tanks in Western US that could sweep down through Mexico to re-take Panama from 2 INF.  Thus Japan could use the canal, grab their INF from the other side, and proceed to raid in the Atlantic.

  • Whoops I’m sorry, I was looking at the revised map not the old one. The panama canal is directly connected to the Eastern US in revised so it’s extremely easy to deflate this strategy in revised.

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