• Going to an APDA debate society meet tomorrow at M.I.T. It’s my second to last debate as a novice and I’m looking to break (make the playoffs), while I am still in the less difficult “division” (meaning, I’d be competing againt novices instead of veterans for playoff spots). All the best teams (Harvard, Yale, Brown) will be there, but so will some weak teams.

    I can’t decide which of my cases (in a nutshell, they are pretty complex) to run. Any input?

    Case 1: Get rid of Columbus Day as a national holiday.
    Case 2: Legalize online poker
    Case 3: Major League Baseball should institute a salary cap.
    Case 4: You are a thief and you are caught with your partner. Do you rat out your partner and walk free and doom him or take a light sentence with him?

    Input?


  • Case 1 looks to be the easiest. 
    Columbus’ voyage was trumped by several others, and he appears to have been a jerk.


  • Case 4:

    And grab all the books about Game Theory that you can:
    It is the “prisoner’s dilemma”, see the Wikipedia for example as a starting point
    There look up “Nash equilibrium”, repeated games, the pay-out matrices, “tit-for-tat”,  etc etc.

    Case 4 has done a gazillion times in maths( and it is not that hard math), economics, socio-economics, reproducing biology (well kind of). There are studies about it from everywhere.
    And the best thing: It has a “clear” answer/solution :), that can be mathematically proven.

    All you need to do is to make sure that you are the first to speak about it, then all the rest can only say “i agree” :) ;)


  • Political Science too :) Yeah, I based my case off prisoners dilemma, but I had to eliminate some of the complexities to make it understandable. Essentially, I’ve elimated one side of the equation by making it so that you know that your partner won’t talk. I also have a case for an all-out classic Prisoners Dilemma, but it’s difficult to set up and explain it to the opposition team.

    I’m a fan of case #4 personally. That is probably what my partner and I will run.

    “Jerk” doesn’t really give credit to Columbus :) Genocidal maniac maybe…


  • Well, ignoring the nonsense about Columbus being a “genocidal maniac” (jerk, maybe, but genocidal?), and disregarding the idea we should remove Columbus day as a national holiday (he was, after all, the first to discover the New World), I recommend either Case 2 or Case 4. Shouldn’t be hard to argue for the legalization, with reasonable restrictions, of online poker, and game theory is always a good discussion piece.


  • he was, after all, the first to discover the New World  There is strong evidence that the Chinese landed in the “New World” before europeans…After all,where did the Euros get their maps? Check out the book  1421 The Year The Chinese Discovered America  It looks like history will have to be re-written!!


  • Even if the Chinese did discover America before Columbus (which is quite possible; everyone knows the Vikings did too, and there’s some debate over whether Antarctica had been discovered long before the 1800s, too), they made no settlements, and absolutely no follow up. It was Columbus’s accidental discovery that lead to the European settlements, and the creation of the modern world. To dismiss him as unimportant and a “maniac” is tripe.


  • “no settlements”…in other words, they didnt stay to conquer the natives…


  • Well … a nice link about the Vikings:
    http://www.arborg.is/bokasafn/page.asp?ID=709

    And for the Euros and maps: did they have any at first? Did they draw them theirselves later?

    Or differently: What would a European need a map of the pacific coast of America when he comes from the Atlantic side?
    (This assumes that the Chinese did use the “short” passage: Their best/most famous admiral did not cross the Cape Horn, although he reached eastern Africa.)


  • Case three should be easy if you arent a Yankees fan.


  • ahh F_alk - you beat me to it.
    AFAIR the vikings actually had some primitive settlements on Greenland.
    I can’t really be too excited about “discovering America” well after so many others had been here.  Particularly when it appears to have been so poorly done.


  • “no settlements”…in other words, they didnt stay to conquer the natives…

    This is hardly worth replying to. What exactly is your point? Many of the early Americans established peaceful relationships with the Indians, and in fact relied upon them for survival much of the time in the early years. The Indians, by the way, were not all peaceful and lovey-dovey; wars were as common over there as they were in Europe, and anyone with a modicum of knowledge could tell you so. The Indians accomplished nothing; they were in almost every respect a stone-age culture. To insinuate that it would have been better had they remained in control (such as it was) of the continent is pure ignorance.

    Not sure what Falk and CC are getting at… I’ve already said that no one reasonably doubts the Viking’s early arrival to the Americas. But they did not establish long-term settlements, made no advancements on the land, and had next-to-zero bearing on the civilization of the New World (theories that they may have inspired Columbus notwithstanding; either way, Columbus was the one who sailed over here). Columbus was flawed in many ways, like any human (except me, of course ;) ); but he was a truly great navigator, and the man who began the colonization of America.


  • The point is on top of your head :evil:…Are you insinuating that I dont have a modicum of knowledge and am purely ignorant with regards to the lovey-dovey and not all peaceful stone-age Indians who accomplished nothing?  I am flawed in many ways,like any human and I never had any long term settlements anywhere…But I have driven a Navigator    :mrgreen:


  • To settle the petty argument that pushed people off topic, Columbus wasnt the first to discover America, but he is the only one that did anything about it.


  • Just got back. It was an excellent Tournament. Unlike that small liberal arts school down the block (Harvard), MIT actually ran a good tournament. It ran a little late, but all big tournaments do.

    My partner and I drew Government side 3 out of 5 times. We ran the Legalize Poker case once and tied (lost in the tiebreaker), and then ran the prisoner’s dilemma case twice. We won one prisoner’s dilemma case and lost the other.

    We went 2-3 overall on the weekend. That is pretty good. Considering that I am a freshman novice, and MIT was a stacked tournament. I mean, we debated against U of Chicago, Yale, Harvard, and Columbia. We stood our ground but lost to both Harvard and Yale, which is a win in my book. In fact, we really should have won the Yale round.

    We beat Columbia and U of Minnesota. We lost to Chicago in the tiebreaker, and Yale by 1 point. We actually don’t have our ballot from Harvard so I don’t know how close we were, but we really did well too.

    I’m getting good. Two years from now, Providence College will be winning national championships  :mrgreen:


  • AFAIR the Vikings did establish long-term settlements in both Greenland, and New Foundland. Archaeologists are unsure as to why the New Foundland settlements ended. The only significant thing about Columbus was that he made the first high-profile discovery of America. The Chinese, if they discovered it first, did not make a big noise about it, and we hadnt uncovered the evidence of this for hundreds of years. The Vikings, who did discover it before Columbus, didnt share their discovery with other Europeans, but kept it to themselves. Columbus discovered the New World for Spain, so the King and Queen knew, and subsequently, all of Europe began to know. That is really the only reason Columbus is even remembered. Otherwise, he wasn’t a very significant person. I mean, if we want to be really technical, the “Native” Americans were the first to discover America, when they crossed the Bering Strait like 15000 years ago, since they actually migrated from Asia.


  • Those Viking settlements existed for about 500 years. Which, by the way, is roughly how long it’s been since Columbus.

    There is significant evidence (History Channel did a show on it) that Columbus got his information from the Vikings.

    Also, other cultures got there first too. The Chineese, Egyptians, West Africans, and possibly even the Greeks made it there too.

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