• I’m starting to think the most realistic AAA option may be to remove it from the ICs. It made noise and gave the population the impression of fighting back. Otherwise it did next to nothing over the cities. I’m pulling this from memory so I might have the date wrong. I’m pretty sure it was the night of Aug 15-16 1940. The Germans were cities in Britain at the time. For one raid they sent 235 bombers. British AAA threw 8300+ rounds at the planes. They shot down 2 and maybe damaged 2 more. My calculus is not up to snuff, so correct me when I say that seems like less than a 1 in 6 chance for each gun to get a kill.

    The AAA in the field engaging dive bombers and strafing fighters did better than this for obvious reasons. Like the planes were much closer and the gunners could see them. The equipment used was also different. Dual and quad mounted full auto weapons increase the odds of a hit. I imagine if the big guns had hive rounds set to explode very shortly after leaving the barrel they would have a pretty good chance of success. When I say explode I’m not thinking of the flechette rounds often thought of when hive rounds are mentioned. I’m thinking of the Japanese San Shiki rounds. Those were cool.

    Obviously the proximity fuse changed this but the were not being used early in the war. When they were first deployed they saw limited use. Basically if any dud rounds wound fall into the ocean or on friendly territory proximity fuses would be used. Eventually the Allies were stomping enough gut to not care. Proximity fuses saw use on artillery rounds and bombs, directly on enemy home territory. Since we are playing games which don’t start at the end of the war I think the 8300 shots for 2 kills scenario carries more weight.

    I’m leaning towards limiting the amount of damage bombers can do on SBRs and decreasing the odds of an AAA hit during SBRs. Roll 2 dice and you have to get a 3 or less.


  • The historic ratio I’ve learned about was 1/10 bombers shot down by AA. I agree - if you are going to reduce the AA hit odds, I would definitely reduce the damage a bomber can do.

    Keep in mind that by reducing the risk of loss of both the bomber and the IPCs you will also be reducing some of the the suspense and excitement of bombing.


  • 10% of the total bomber force used was either damaged or shot down, not 10% shot down.

    you need to account for damaged bombers that return back and don’t drop payload, as well as lost planes


  • As a philistine who plays the game for fun (while also enjoying the presentation of WWII strategic challenges) my focus would be on keeping the game interesting and allowing worthwhile gameplay options, rather than on reflecting reality.

    If we want the game to reflect reality I am sure we will come up with hundreds (thousands!) of changes.

    In any case one SBR in A&A is not one bombing raid in reality. It is a whole time period of bomber raids. Some equate an A&A turn to a season of 3 months. In which case 1 SBR is 3 month’s worth of bombing raids and resulting aircraft losses and industrial damage. At a rate of 1 sortie per day the whole bomber fleet is shot down or damaged in 10 days (using the 10% above in this thread). I have a vague memory of an average 20 sorties or so before being shot down?

    Perhaps trying to build that reality into the game demonstrates the futility of the exercise.


  • Well you could tweak the die rolls. AA’s get a 1 die roll against each plane. For a D6 roll you get @1 plane destroyed. D6 roll of @2 damages plane, can’t drop payload but can return to friendly land or ship. SBR’s would be 2 die rolls of a D6.

    For AA’s for D12, 1 roll per plane and a roll of @1 and 2 plane destroyed. A roll of @3 and 4 plane damaged and can’t drop payload, but can return to land and ship.

    I would use the D12 die roll for AA’s in a game that plays with D6. That way your odds decrease for a hit. You are gonna have to test it.

    Also you could make it a D12 roll but @1 only destroys plane and a roll of @2 damages plane and can’t drop payload. Then for SBR’s bombers get only 1 roll of a D6 for damage.

    Got to play with it.


  • I’m not one for total realism in the game myself. There would be one outcome with each game. Italy would be no fun at all. “I’m making 3 infantry. My 3 infantry in Libya surrender. I’m tranporting 3 infantry from Southern Italy to Libya. I’m now deciding with all these ICs where to place my 3 infantry.” Maybe not the best strategy, but that’s not the point. Total realism would wreck the game.

    I’ve just never been a fan of the SBR since winning a game by having the US build nothing but bombers 25+ years ago. Being able to make enough bombers to completely end someone’s production is not fun either. I realize there have been rule tweeks since then. Thankfully so. It still places a lot on the luck element. In the end I think the less SBR the more strategy that must be used to secure victory.

    Also I have crap luck. There’s nothing like knowing for a fact you are about to lose at least 2 of your 5 bombers which have a 1 in 6 chance of being shot down.


  • Just try using the D12 die  for AA’s and keep SBR’s to 1 D6 damage. Put a cap on buying so many bombers then.


  • I agree that AAA had, at best, very mixed effectiveness in bringing down aircraft (especially at night), but it was far from useless and its effectiveness could sometimes be boosted.  I read an account of the defense of Scapa Flow in WWII which mentioned the use of an interesting AAA technique whose name I can’t recall with certainty but which I think was called a box barrage.  Rather than aiming at individual aircraft, the AAA batteries would fire in a fixed pattern (both in terms of their aiming points and of their firing frequency) designed to achieve a maximum density of shell explosions within a defined three-dimentional volume of airspace over the defended area.  Enemy aircraft flying outside this box were ignored, because they weren’t flying over any important targets.  Enemy aircraft flying inside this box operated in an airspace in which there was the highest-achievable probability that they would run into an AAA burst.


  • @Private:

    I have a vague memory of an average 20 sorties or so before being shot down?

    The USAAF in Europe required bomber crews to fly 25 bombing missions before being released from bomber duty.  Most never got that far.  The first crew to achieve the 25-mission total, the crew of the Memphis Belle, became celebrities because of it (a wartime documentary was even made about them), which shows just how how hard it was to survive 25 missions.


  • If you don’t like something that keeps happening in game, then you got no choice but to house rule it and play test it.  :-D


  • @The11HP20:

    I’ve just never been a fan of the SBR since winning a game by having the US build nothing but bombers 25+ years ago. Being able to make enough bombers to completely end someone’s production is not fun either. I realize there have been rule tweeks since then. Thankfully so. It still places a lot on the luck element. In the end I think the less SBR the more strategy that must be used to secure victory.

    Not sure whether you are playing 40G or 42.2, but sounds like the latter? In which case the optional interceptor rule may already give you the added challenges to any SBR that you are seeking?


  • That would be included in changes that I posted.


  • @SS:

    If you don’t like something that keeps happening in game, then you got no choice but to house rule it and play test it.  :-D

    WORD

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