I noticed that you don’t allow the US to activate Brazil when neutral in another game (your blog). Would you say that applies to your rules as well? Thank you!
Threshold for making a viable SBR against interceptors?
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Yes, those 7 bombers are definately a complete overkill.
Understanding the SBR-dynamics, Germany would have to send in ~12 aircraft to compete with ~12 interceptors, or not raid at all in this example. Otherwise they are asking for lucky die rolls to prevent shooting in their own foot.You can calculate the most likely damage for both sides if the interceptor has 12 FTR and the SBRing side only sends in 4Bombers +2FTR. Most likely the attacker will loose 2FTR + 1Bomber (32 damage), while the defender will suffer 27 damage (1FTR + 16,5 on the IC rounding up).
You are right ofc, about the AB also contributing to the damage. I didn’t take that into account because I forgot it, but it matters only for major powers that will have to repair any damaged AB and/or NB (not Russia in this example).But like I said, this is only considering economics. There is also the military situation. The attacker has to be sure it can achieve its goals with its leftover aircraft and so does the defender, ofc…
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@wittmann:
Afternoon Baron.
I would never intercept, if I had fewer planes than the attacker, unless he had no Fts in the battle and I could afford to lose (could replace) my losses.
As the agressor, I would also ensure I had a Ft to lose, if the defender had Fts which could intercept and would like 2 or 3 more planes than him.
As a rule, I don’t intercept, as the attacker can usually accompany his Bombers, with the canon fodder Fighters.
The new rules make it a raw deal for the defender. I do not like the change from Anniversary and 42, which saw the 2 in defence become a measly 1 in 1940.Yeah, the bombers at 1 really sucks - they should be 0.
Unless I have some advantage in numbers, it seems like intercepting is only giving the attacker more opportunity to damage your force where it counts.
But it all depends on what’s going on in game… and if scrambling that fighter could mean allowing the Russians to place more units - maybe you do it. High risk game of Russian roulette.
Both comments makes me think about a way to improve the actual system by increasing the compelling advantage of intercepting (while increasing the reward when there is no interceptor) with the basic attack and defense factor @1.
Here is below a quote from a thread I just started in HR about a slightly different values for Strategic bombers, Tactical and Fighters:@Baron:
Down below here is a small variant from the above SBR HR for Global 1940
That is my preferred ones, since it is nearer OOB odds.
In this case, both attacking Fighters and Tactical Bombers have a small First Strike advantage over defending Fighter.
However, Strategic Bombers are still defenseless against interceptors.In this variant, it should be assumed that Tactical bombers can do escorting mission besides Strategic bombers, even when there is no Air Base or Naval Base.
Strategic Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 0
Bombard IC or AB or NB damage: 1D6**+3**
It is a higher rate of damage to compensate for the 0 attack factor.Fighter in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1 First Strike
Defend 1Tactical Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1 First Strike
Bombard AB or NB damage: 1D6IC’s AAA: @1 against each Strategic Bomber
Naval Base or Air Base: @1 against each Strategic Bomber or Tactical bomber
G40 SBR HRules with StB A0 and Fg A1 First Strike D1 : damage 1D6+3
1 Strategic Bomber doing SBR against no interceptor
AAA roll = odds casualties
5/6 StB survived * 6.5 IPCs = +5.417 IPCs
1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCsSum: + 5.417 - 2 = +3.417 IPCs damage/SBR run
1 Strategic Bomber Att 0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor Def 1
Interceptor Fg roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
1/66/6 = 6/36 1 StB killed by Fg
5/61/6 = 5/36 1 StB killed by AAA
5/6*5/6 = 25/36 No casualty at all.Results:
Bombard on IC 25/36* ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +6.5 IPCs) = + 4.514 IPCs
StB killed 11/36 *-12 IPCs = - 3.667 IPCs
Sum: + 4.514 - 3.667 = + 0.847 IPC. damage/SBR run
1 Strategic Bomber Att 0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors Def 1
Interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
11/366/6 = 66/216 1 StB killed by Fg
25/361/6 = 25/216 1 StB killed by AAA
25/36*5/6 = 125/216 No casualty at all.Results:
Bombard on IC 125/216* ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +6.5 IPCs) = + 3.762 IPCs
StB killed 91/216 *-12 IPCs = - 5.056 IPCs
Sum: + 3.762 - 5.056 = - 1.294 IPC. damage/SBR run
1 Fighter Attack 1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber Att 0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors Def 1
Fighter roll/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
1/66/361/6= 6/1296 1 Fg killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
1/66/365/6= 30/1296 1 Fg killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
1/630/361/6 = 30/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
1/630/365/6 = 150/1296 No casualty vs 1 Fg5/61/366/6 = 30/1296 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty
5/610/361/6 = 50/1296 1 Fg killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
5/610/365/6 = 250/1296 1 Fg killed by Fg vs no casualty
5/625/361/6 = 125/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
5/625/365/6 = 625/1296 no casualty at allResults:
Bombard on IC: 1055/1296 * ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +6.5 IPCs) = + 5.291 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 216/1296 +10 IPCs = + 1.667 IPCs
Fg killed: 280/1296-10 IPCs = - 2.160 IPCs
StB killed: 155/1296*-12 IPCs = - 1.435 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 86/1296*-22 IPCs = - 1.460 IPCsSum: + 6.958 - 5.055 = + 1.903 IPC damage/SBR run
1 Fighter Att 1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber Att 0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor Def 1
Fighter roll/interceptor Fg roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
1/66/61/6 = 6/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
1/66/65/6 = 30/216 No casualty vs 1 Fg5/61/61/6 = 5/216 1 Fg killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
5/61/65/6 = 25/216 1 Fg killed by Fg vs no casualty
5/65/61/6 = 25/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
5/65/65/6 = 125/216 no casualty at allResults:
Bombard on IC: 180/216 * ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +6.5 IPCs) = + 5.417 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 36/216 +10 IPCs = + 1.667 IPCs
Fg killed: 25/216-10 IPCs = - 1.157 IPCs
StB killed: 31/216*-12 IPCs = - 1.722 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 5/216*-22 IPCs = - 0.509 IPCSum: + 7.084 - 3.388 = + 3.696 IPC damage/SBR run
2 Strategic Bombers Att 0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors Def 1
Interceptor Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
1/3636/36= 36/1296 2 StBs killed by Fgs
10/366/36 = 60/1296 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA
10/6*30/36= 300/1296 1 StB killed by Fg25/361/36 = 25/1296 2 StBs killed by AAA
25/3610/36 = 250/1296 1 StB killed by AAA
25/36*25/36 = 625/1296 No casualty at all.Results:
2x Bombard on IC 625/1296* ((2+4)+(12+4) IPCs)/2= +13 IPCs) = +6.269 IPCs
1x Bombard on IC 550/1296* ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +6.5 IPCs) = + 2.758 IPCs
2 StBs killed 121/1296*-24 IPCs = - 2.241 IPCs
1 StB killed 550/1296*-12 IPCs = - 5.093 IPCs
Sum: + 9.027 - 7.334 = + 1.693 IPCs damage/SBR run
2 Strategic Bombers Att 0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor Def 1
Interceptor Fg roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
1/66/36 = 6/216 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA
1/630/36= 30/216 1 StB killed by Fg
5/61/36 = 5/216 2 StBs killed by AAA
5/610/36 = 50/216 1 StB killed by AAA
5/6*25/36 = 125/216 No casualty at all.Results:
2x Bombard on IC 125/216* ((2+4)+(12+4) IPCs)/2= +13 IPCs) = +7.523 IPCs
1x Bombard on IC 80/216* ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +6.5 IPCs) = + 2.407 IPCs
2 StBs killed 11/216*-24 IPCs = - 1.222 IPC
1 StB killed 80/216*-12 IPCs = - 4.444 IPCs
Sum: + 9.930 - 5.666 = + 4.264 IPCs damage/SBR run
Summary:
G40 SBR HRules with StB A0 and Fg A1 First Strike D1 : damage 1D6+31 Strategic Bomber doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 5.417 - 2 = +3.417 IPCs damage/SBR run1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 4.514 - 3.667 = + 0.847 IPC. damage/SBR run1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 3.762 - 5.056 = - 1.294 IPC. damage/SBR run1 Fighter A1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 6.958 - 5.055 = + 1.903 IPC damage/SBR run2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 9.027 - 7.334 = + 1.693 IPCs damage/SBR run1 Fighter A1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 7.084 - 3.388 = + 3.696 IPC damage/SBR run2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 9.930 - 5.666 = + 4.264 IPCs damage/SBR run@Baron:
To give everyone an opportunity to make his own mind about which SBR rules is his prefered one, and their impact and odds, here is a complete summary of all the calc results about various SBR rules with different combination of units:
G1940 OOB SBR:
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
Sum: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR run1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR run1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR run2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR run1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR run2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR run -
I believe that probably this last one would be easier to implement since heavy bomber damage was part of some Tech tree in previous edition. Also, the 2D6 damage introduce a greater variability on the dice result. In a certain way, it can be similar to the effect of massive carpet bombing. The effect of such attack was mainly random. Sometimes it reaches targets and sometimes not at all.
Hope it can provides some interests to discuss its merits on the specific HR thread:
One things to remember is that the OOB SBR is statistically more efficient than this one (even if the bombers can deliver 2D6 damage!).
Just compare the summary with the last post quoted below about G40 OOB SBR odds.Of course, when there is no interception, the damage are greater than OOB, but Strategic bombers are no more dangerous against intercepting Fighters. It is the real incentive to intercept and have some dogfights.
Only the escorting planes (Fighters and Tactical Bombers) can be a danger to them.@Baron:
Down below here is another small variant from the above SBR HR for Global 1940
That is my preferred, because it is the nearest OOB odds we can get without going crazy on heavy bombardment.
In this case (as the last one above), both attacking Fighters and Tactical Bombers still have a small First Strike advantage over defending Fighter.
However, Strategic Bombers are still defenseless against interceptors.In this variant, it should be assumed that Tactical bombers can do escorting mission besides Strategic bombers, even when there is no Air Base or Naval Base.
Strategic Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 0
Bombard IC or AB or NB damage: 2D6
It is a higher rate of damage to compensate for the 0 attack factor.Fighter in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1 First Strike
Defend 1Tactical Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1 First Strike
Bombard AB or NB damage: 1D6IC’s AAA: @1 against each Strategic Bomber
Naval Base or Air Base: @1 against each Strategic Bomber or Tactical bomber
G40 SBR HRules with StB A0 and Fg A1 First Strike D1 : damage 2D6
1 Strategic Bomber doing SBR against no interceptor
AAA roll = odds casualties
5/6 StB survived * (2+12= 14/2= 7 IPCs) = +5.833 IPCs
1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCsSum: + 5.833 - 2 = +3.833 IPCs damage/SBR run
1 Strategic Bomber Att 0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor Def 1
Interceptor Fg roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
1/66/6 = 6/36 1 StB killed by Fg
5/61/6 = 5/36 1 StB killed by AAA
5/6*5/6 = 25/36 No casualty at all.Results:
Bombard on IC 25/36* ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +7 IPCs) = + 4.861 IPCs
StB killed 11/36 *-12 IPCs = - 3.667 IPCs
Sum: + 4.861 - 3.667 = + 1.194 IPC damage/SBR run
1 Strategic Bomber Att 0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors Def 1
Interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
11/366/6 = 66/216 1 StB killed by Fg
25/361/6 = 25/216 1 StB killed by AAA
25/36*5/6 = 125/216 No casualty at all.Results:
Bombard on IC 125/216* ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +7 IPCs) = + 4.051 IPCs
StB killed 91/216 *-12 IPCs = - 5.056 IPCs
Sum: + 4.051 - 5.056 = - 1.005 IPC damage/SBR run
1 Fighter Attack 1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber Att 0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors Def 1
Fighter roll/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
1/66/361/6= 6/1296 1 Fg killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
1/66/365/6= 30/1296 1 Fg killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
1/630/361/6 = 30/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
1/630/365/6 = 150/1296 No casualty vs 1 Fg5/61/366/6 = 30/1296 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty
5/610/361/6 = 50/1296 1 Fg killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
5/610/365/6 = 250/1296 1 Fg killed by Fg vs no casualty
5/625/361/6 = 125/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
5/625/365/6 = 625/1296 no casualty at allResults:
Bombard on IC: 1055/1296 * ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +7 IPCs) = + 5.698 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 216/1296 +10 IPCs = + 1.667 IPCs
Fg killed: 280/1296-10 IPCs = - 2.160 IPCs
StB killed: 155/1296*-12 IPCs = - 1.435 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 86/1296*-22 IPCs = - 1.460 IPCsSum: + 7.365 - 5.055 = + 2.310 IPC damage/SBR run
1 Fighter Att 1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber Att 0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor Def 1
Fighter roll/interceptor Fg roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
1/66/61/6 = 6/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
1/66/65/6 = 30/216 No casualty vs 1 Fg5/61/61/6 = 5/216 1 Fg killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
5/61/65/6 = 25/216 1 Fg killed by Fg vs no casualty
5/65/61/6 = 25/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
5/65/65/6 = 125/216 no casualty at allResults:
Bombard on IC: 180/216 * ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +7 IPCs) = + 5.833 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 36/216 +10 IPCs = + 1.667 IPCs
Fg killed: 25/216-10 IPCs = - 1.157 IPCs
StB killed: 31/216*-12 IPCs = - 1.722 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 5/216*-22 IPCs = - 0.509 IPCSum: + 7.500 - 3.388 = + 4.112 IPC damage/SBR run
2 Strategic Bombers Att 0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors Def 1
Interceptor Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
1/3636/36= 36/1296 2 StBs killed by Fgs
10/366/36 = 60/1296 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA
10/6*30/36= 300/1296 1 StB killed by Fg25/361/36 = 25/1296 2 StBs killed by AAA
25/3610/36 = 250/1296 1 StB killed by AAA
25/36*25/36 = 625/1296 No casualty at all.Results:
2x Bombard on IC 625/1296* ((2+4)+(12+4) IPCs)/2= +14 IPCs) = +6.752 IPCs
1x Bombard on IC 550/1296* ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +7 IPCs) = + 2.971 IPCs
2 StBs killed 121/1296*-24 IPCs = - 2.241 IPCs
1 StB killed 550/1296*-12 IPCs = - 5.093 IPCs
Sum: + 9.722 - 7.334 = + 2.389 IPCs damage/SBR run
2 Strategic Bombers Att 0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor Def 1
Interceptor Fg roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
1/66/36 = 6/216 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA
1/630/36= 30/216 1 StB killed by Fg
5/61/36 = 5/216 2 StBs killed by AAA
5/610/36 = 50/216 1 StB killed by AAA
5/6*25/36 = 125/216 No casualty at all.Results:
2x Bombard on IC 125/216* ((2+4)+(12+4) IPCs)/2= +14 IPCs) = +8.102 IPCs
1x Bombard on IC 80/216* ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +7 IPCs) = + 2.593 IPCs
2 StBs killed 11/216*-24 IPCs = - 1.222 IPC
1 StB killed 80/216*-12 IPCs = - 4.444 IPCs
Sum: + 10.695 - 5.666 = + 5.029 IPCs damage/SBR run
G40 SBR HRules with StB A0 and Fg A1 First Strike D1 : damage 2D6
Summary:
1 Strategic Bomber doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 5.833 - 2 = +3.833 IPCs damage/SBR run1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 4.861 - 3.667 = + 1.194 IPC damage/SBR run1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 4.051 - 5.056 = - 1.005 IPC damage/SBR run1 Fighter A1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 7.365 - 5.055 = + 2.310 IPC damage/SBR run2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 9.722 - 7.334 = + 2.389 IPCs damage/SBR run1 Fighter A1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 7.500 - 3.388 = + 4.112 IPC damage/SBR run2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 10.695 - 5.666 = + 5.029 IPCs damage/SBR run@Baron:
G1940 OOB SBR:
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
Sum: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR run1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR run1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR run2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR run1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR run2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR run -
Basically I never intercept. If Bombers were 0 and Fighters 1 then it would at least force the attacker to send more escorts, or maybe not force but encourage. IDK. I still like the idea of a scrambled fighter reducing a bombers dice roll by two on a 1:1 basis to encourage scrambling. Right now why do it unless you have the advantage?
Yeah, the bombers at 1 really sucks - they should be 0.
Unless I have some advantage in numbers, it seems like intercepting is only giving the attacker more opportunity to damage your force where it counts.
But it all depends on what’s going on in game… and if scrambling that fighter could mean allowing the Russians to place more units - maybe you do it. High risk game of Russian roulette.
@wittmann:
Afternoon Baron.
I would never intercept, if I had fewer planes than the attacker, unless he had no Fts in the battle and I could afford to lose (could replace) my losses.
As the agressor, I would also ensure I had a Ft to lose, if the defender had Fts which could intercept and would like 2 or 3 more planes than him.
As a rule, I don’t intercept, as the attacker can usually accompany his Bombers, with the canon fodder Fighters.
The new rules make it a raw deal for the defender. I do not like the change from Anniversary and 42, which saw the 2 in defence become a measly 1 in 1940.Hi, everyone.
A deeper question for all of you:
would you intercept or make a SBR on 1:1 ratio, if the following values were applied?
Or is this a major deterrent from the attacker POV?Defending interceptors get first strike @1 and always hit Bombers first, whether Tactical or Strategic (owner’s choice).
If intercepting, the Defender can also bring into combat his AAA units within the TT, each defend @1 against up to 1 plane.Strategic Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1
Bombard IC or AB or NB damage: 1D6+2Fighter in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1 First Strike
Defend 1 First Strike
Always hit Bombers first, whether Tactical or Strategic (owner’s choice).Tactical Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1
Bombard AB or NB damage: 1D6It should be assumed that Tactical bombers can do escorting mission besides Strategic bombers, even when there is no Air Base or Naval Base.
Anti-Aircraft Artillery
Defense: 1 per unit and up to max 1 per enemy’s plane.
All Anti-Aircraft Artillery within the TT get 1@1 up to maximum of 1 defense roll per each attacking aircraft.
Planes’ casualties are the owner’s choice.
AAA unit can be chosen as casualty, if all defending interceptors are already taken as casualties.
If the territory is also under a regular attack, surviving AAA units can also be used against other airplanes, working as per OOB rules.IC’s AA gun: @1 against each Strategic Bomber
Naval Base or Air Base’s AA gun: @1 against each Strategic Bomber or Tactical bomber -
Basically I never intercept. If Bombers were 0 and Fighters 1 then it would at least force the attacker to send more escorts, or maybe not force but encourage. IDK. I still like the idea of a scrambled fighter reducing a bombers dice roll by two on a 1:1 basis to encourage scrambling. Right now why do it unless you have the advantage?
Yeah, the bombers at 1 really sucks - they should be 0.
Unless I have some advantage in numbers, it seems like intercepting is only giving the attacker more opportunity to damage your force where it counts.
But it all depends on what’s going on in game… and if scrambling that fighter could mean allowing the Russians to place more units - maybe you do it. High risk game of Russian roulette.
@wittmann:
Afternoon Baron.
I would never intercept, if I had fewer planes than the attacker, unless he had no Fts in the battle and I could afford to lose (could replace) my losses.
As the aggressor, I would also ensure I had a Ft to lose, if the defender had Fts which could intercept and would like 2 or 3 more planes than him.
As a rule, I don’t intercept, as the attacker can usually accompany his Bombers, with the canon fodder Fighters.
The new rules make it a raw deal for the defender. I do not like the change from Anniversary and 42, which saw the 2 in defence become a measly 1 in 1940.I agree with you wittmann. I rarely use interceptors as I have found it to be a waste of fighters. Too often I see those attacking bombers get that lucky “1” and blasting my defending fighters out of the sky. In fact, I still remember one game where Germany sent in 4 bombers to SBR Moscow. Russia had 5 fighters so we said “Let’s intercept”. The Russian fighters got 1 bomber while Germany knocked out 3 Russian fighters! I can’t help but think those extra 4 rollers could have made a difference in the battle for Moscow a couple of rounds later.
OK, everyone. I have some really big statements on a truly better SBR, and not so different from the basics OOB game mechanics.
First a few principles about what can make a good incentive to make SBR or to intercept an SBR attack.1- A massive number of Strategic Bombers with each an attacking factor @1 is a pretty big deterrent for any TT with fewer Fighter defending @1.
This create an historical aberration in which all air defense stay grounded and let the bombers do the destruction over IC, AB and NB.2- This situation is created by the fact that intercepting bombers are a worse situation than being bombed up to the maximum damage allowance.
Loosing Fighters which can be useful on regular defense (@4) while achieving almost nothing to destroy incoming bombers is also a major deterrent.3- For an optimized play, on statistical POV, a good player should ponder whether intercepting the bombers really lowering their odds of loosing IPCs over the other way of letting Bombers directly under IC’s AA gun fire. So, a player must calculate how many IPCs will be lost on average if he intercepts against how many direct bombing damage can be done against him.
4- To prevent the fear of massive attacking bombers (acting like fighters attacking enemy’s fighters) most of you people assumed that a Strategic bomber with an attack factor @0 is part of the whole solution. (I agree, so I make a lot of table to find the perfect balance in regard to the usual odds of G40 OOB SBR.) They should be defenseless in dogfight. But with more destructive power.
5- To see if a given SBR mechanics could work, it should also compare the bare SBR value of Bombers raiding without interference and the TUV lost if a given number of Fighter(s) intercept(s) the bomber. To get an incentive mechanics, the defending player must see a real interest to intercept on a mathematical POV.
Here is the basic OOB reference with a single bomber making an OOB G40 SBR without interference:
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
Sum: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR runIn OOB situation, intercepting with a single Fighter gives lesser damage for the defender.
1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR runAnd when an escort and an additional interceptor are part of the raid the maths say that it is almost similar to not intercept option (2.583 vs 2.445):
1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR runSo, on a 1:1 basis, the actual system is broken since their is no real advantage for the defender to risk his precious fighters against such attack.
On a 2:1 basis, it is clear that any defending Fighter should stay put at such unfavourable ratio (+.7 IPC more dangerous if intercepting):
2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
OOB G40: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR2 Strategic Bombers doing SBR against no interceptor
OOB G40: +9.167 - 4 = +5.167 IPCs damage/SBR
Here is the first system which I believe can create a better incentive to SBR or intercept without too much turmoil.
Also, it is probably easy to implement such value on Triple A, for play-testing:Strategic Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 0
Bombard IC or AB or NB damage: D6+3Fighter in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1
Defend 1Tactical Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1
Bombard AB or NB damage: 1D6IC’s AA gun: @1 against each Strategic Bomber
Naval Base or Air Base’s AA gun: @1 against each Strategic Bomber or Tactical bomber
How can I be convincing? It is needed to compare a few situations between OOB and this new set of values.
First situation, risking a bomber? For the attacker, it is clearly better, the reward is basically near 1 IPC higher over OOB (+ 0.8 IPC):
3.417 IPCs/SBR against 2.583 IPCs/SBR.1 Strategic Bomber doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 5.417 - 2 = +3.417 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBRDoes it worth it to intercept? Of, course there is no risk against any number of bombers. Their attack factor is @0.
On a 1:1 ratio, the attacker can still have better odds (but less than OOB) and there is a chance he can loose the bomber. So intercepting is always better.1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 4.514 - 3.667 = + 0.847 IPC. damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBRBut, usually the attacker have more tactical options and can choose what will be the ratio he will commit into the SBR. And he can wait a 2:1 ratio by bringing in an escorting Fighter:
1 Fighter A1 and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Fg A1 D1 regular: + 7.084 - 3.667 = + 3.417 IPC damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR
This show odds just a bit lower than OOB (a slightly better situation for defender) while the attacking escort provides the casualty buffer needed to make this case at similar odds as a no intercept situation. So, it is up to the defender to choose, both situations are similar: does he believe in his luck or not?When it is a 1:1 ratio with 1 escort against 2 intercepting Fgs, this new SBR values are much more tempting for an interception (1.6 IPCs vs 2.442 IPCs) and letting the bomber directly attack IC it would rise to 3.417 IPCs/SBR , but still 1 attacking Fighter acting as a casualty fodder is pretty acceptable:
1 Fighter A1 and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Fg A1 D1 regular: + 6.933 - 5.333 = + 1.600 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +7.775 - 5.333 = + 2.442 IPCs damage/SBRAlso, this show that escorting 1 bomber (1.6 IPCs/SBR) gives as much reward than attacking only with bombers (1.693 IPCs/SBR):
2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 9.027 - 7.334 = + 1.693 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBROnly the 2:1 ratio is better with bombers only:
2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 9.930 - 5.666 = + 4.264 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBRbut now the defender will not fear to loose his single intercepting Fighter and will commit it to reduce the attackers odds:
2 Strategic Bombers doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 10.834 - 4 = +6.834 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +9.167 - 4 = +5.167 IPCs damage/SBRNow, are you convinced that this little twist (bomber A0, +3 damage) will give more dog-fighting situations?
There is another more challenging way to do SBR.
For instance, by always letting interceptor hit takes bomber casualty before any escorting Fighter, but I will explained it on another thread:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35883.msg1411129#msg1411129
One last word about the chart down below.
It can be used to get pretty good average calculation for more complex situations:
3 bombers and 1 Fgs vs 3 Fgs. This can be obtained with 1 bomber+1 Fg against 2 Fgs and 2 bombers against 1 Fgs:1 Fighter A1 and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Fg A1 D1 regular: + 6.933 - 5.333 = + 1.600 IPCs damage/SBR
+
2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 9.930 - 5.666 = + 4.264 IPCs damage/SBR- 16.863 - 10.999 = + 5.864 IPCs/SBR
Which means: be prepare to loose either a bomber or a Fighter (-11 IPCs) and too inflict around 17 IPCs of damage, probably due to bombing.
Hope this can be found useful somehow.
@Baron:
Summary: StB A0 Damage: 1D6**+3**, Fg A1_fs_D1
1 Strategic Bomber doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 5.417 - 2 = +3.417 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 4.514 - 3.667 = + 0.847 IPC. damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 3.762 - 5.056 = - 1.294 IPC. damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR1 Fighter A1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 6.958 - 5.055 = + 1.903 IPC damage/SBR run
Fg A1_fs_D1 Bomber first: + 5.554 - 5.055 = + 0.499 IPC damage/SBR
StB A1 D6+3, Fg A1 D1 Bomber first: +7.094 - 5.333 = + 1.761 IPCs damage/StB
Fg A1 D1 regular: + 6.933 - 5.333 = + 1.600 IPC damage/SBR
OOB G40: +7.775 - 5.333 = + 2.442 IPCs damage/SBR2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 9.027 - 7.334 = + 1.693 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR1 Fighter A1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 7.084 - 3.388 = + 3.696 IPC damage/SBR
Fg A1_fs_D1 Bomber first: + 6.331 - 3.389 = + 2.942 IPC damage/SBR
StB A1 D6+3, Fg A1 D1 Bomber first: +7.570 - 3.667 = + 3.903 IPCs damage/StB
Fg A1 D1 regular: + 7.084 - 3.667 = + 3.417 IPC damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 9.930 - 5.666 = + 4.264 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR2 Strategic Bombers doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 10.834 - 4 = +6.834 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +9.167 - 4 = +5.167 IPCs damage/SBRTo get an easy comparison point with OOB G40 SBR:
G1940 OOB SBR:
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
Sum: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR -
What I would find a decent way to prevent the historic abberation and also to not affect current gameplay too much, is if attacking bombers (TAC/STR) would work the same as defending AA-guns.
Meaning that bombers just never have more dice to roll than there are interceptors. That way, if the raiders want to play an effective economic game, they MUST send a decent amount of FTR along with the bombers.
Historic rationale: bombers do not actively scour the skies for intercepting FTR, but they will fire in defense if attacked.Another thing I would be happy about, is if FTR escort/intercept@2 instead of just 1, like bombers. No need to explain that one. But I think this is less important than limited dice for bombers.
Some examples that are very likely to occur in real games:
1. Incoming raid consists of 12STR, intercepted by 3FTR. Raiders fire 3@1, interceptors fire 3@2.
2. Same as above, but now incoming raid consists of 12STR + 3 escorts. Raiders fire 3@1 + 3@2, interceptors fire 3@2.
3. Same as 2nd example, now with 3 additional interceptors. Raiders fire 6@1 + 3@2, interceptors fire 6@2.
4. 30STR raiding, 12FTR intercepts. Raiders fire 12@1, interceptors fire 12@2.
5. Last example: 7STR + 5FTR escorts, 12 FTR intercepts. Raiders fire 7@1 + 5@2, interceptors fire 12@2.I think above examples perfectly illustrate that in such a system, bombers should usually not raid without enough escorts. FTR could even be given their normal combat values (i.e. @3 for escorts, @4 for interceptors), but that could be too bloody for game balance…
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Absolutely correct!
I think on a 1:1 a B17 was indeed a worthy opponent to a Messerchmidt. Lancasters not so good, so they flew at night, while the B17’s flew day-missions.
I am thinking strategically here: if there are as many FTR as there are bombers, tactically the FTR should have better chances because of their flexibility, right? Even against B17’s, exactly because those are flying in Formation and stay in formation untill the bombs are dropped on the target or the mission is aborted.
If a formation has (in game terms) 30 STR versus just 12 FTR, and those FTR attack the formation from the rear then I think it is even optimistic to say that as much as 12 STR can fire back to defend themselves, but it depends a bit on what the formation is.But that’s all too much battle-tactics ;-). We can understand that bombers flying at the far end of a formation cannot return fire (safely) and then the question rises: how many of them cannot. I took an arbitrary number of saying that only as much bombers can return fire as there are intercepting FTR, which is also very easy-to-use.
FTR can also just intercept/escort @1, if you prefer to take the B17 as model for all STR in this game. With Lancasters/Ju-88 as model however, FTR should better fight airbattles @2.
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What I would find a decent way to prevent the historic abberation and also to not affect current gameplay too much, is if attacking bombers (TAC/STR) would work the same as defending AA-guns.
Meaning that bombers just never have more dice to roll than there are interceptors. That way, if the raiders want to play an effective economic game, they MUST send a decent amount of FTR along with the bombers.
Historic rationale: bombers do not actively scour the skies for intercepting FTR, but they will fire in defense if attacked.Another thing I would be happy about, is if FTR escort/intercept@2 instead of just 1, like bombers. No need to explain that one. But I think this is less important than limited dice for bombers.
Some examples that are very likely to occur in real games:
1. Incoming raid consists of 12STR, intercepted by 3FTR. Raiders fire 3@1, interceptors fire 3@2.
2. Same as above, but now incoming raid consists of 12STR + 3 escorts. Raiders fire 3@1 + 3@2, interceptors fire 3@2.
3. Same as 2nd example, now with 3 additional interceptors. Raiders fire 6@1 + 3@2, interceptors fire 6@2.
4. 30STR raiding, 12FTR intercepts. Raiders fire 12@1, interceptors fire 12@2.
5. Last example: 7STR + 5FTR escorts, 12 FTR intercepts. Raiders fire 7@1 + 5@2, interceptors fire 12@2.I think above examples perfectly illustrate that in such a system, bombers should usually not raid without enough escorts. FTR could even be given their normal combat values (i.e. @3 for escorts, @4 for interceptors), but that could be too bloody for game balance…
A long time ago, I calculated this special case scenario with StB A1 D6+2 damage against defending Fgs intercepting @2:
@Baron:2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
With optionnal limitation rule: in air-to-air combat, bombers cannot get more rolls than the numbers of defending Fgs interceptors.
StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualtiesSum: +9.306 - 7.334 = + 1.972 IPCs damage/SBR run
Compared to OOB G40 SBR, this 2:1 ratio is clearly much weaker (-3.9 IPCs/SBR):
2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBRAnd compared to the StB A0 D6+3 I suggested, it is less weaker (-2.2 IPCs/SBR) but still inferior as well:
2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 9.930 - 5.666 = + 4.264 IPCs damage/SBRA defending Fg @2 is much harder value to balance compared to OOB G40 SBR.
I’m working on it, but it is not that simple.
However, there is this other mechanics which provides some limited air-combat value to bombers:
@Baron:
A more historical depiction of SBR which keeps interesting odds compared to G40 OOB.
In this one, intercepting Fighters are targeting attacking Bombers (TcBs or StBs) first, then escorting Fighters.There is also a combined arms bonus for Strategic bomber in air-to-air combat which is consistent with an older HR invented when talking about Bombers spamming strategies (Darken skies), see down below:
Strategic Bomber
Attack 3-4, gets A4 if paired 1:1 with Fighter
Defense 1
Move 6
Cost 12
Damage 1D6+3.Tactical Bomber
Attack 4
Defense 3
Move 4
Cost 11
Damage 1D6.
Strategic Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 0 or 1 when paired 1:1 with Fighter
Bombard IC or AB or NB damage: D6+3Fighter in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1
Gives +1A to 1 Strategic Bomber when paired 1:1 with.
Defend 1
Always hit Bombers first, whether Tactical or Strategic (owner’s choice).Tactical Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1
Bombard AB or NB damage: 1D6IC’s AA gun: @1 against each Strategic Bomber
Naval Base or Air Base’s AA gun: @1 against each Strategic Bomber or Tactical bomber@Baron:
Summary: StB A0 Damage: 1D6**+3**, Fg A1_fs_D1
1 Strategic Bomber doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 5.417 - 2 = +3.417 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 4.514 - 3.667 = + 0.847 IPC. damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 3.762 - 5.056 = - 1.294 IPC. damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR1 Fighter A1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 6.958 - 5.055 = + 1.903 IPC damage/SBR run
Fg A1_fs_D1 Bomber first: + 5.554 - 5.055 = + 0.499 IPC damage/SBR
StB A1 D6+3, Fg A1 D1 Bomber first: +7.094 - 5.333 = + 1.761 IPCs damage/StB
Fg A1 D1 regular: + 6.933 - 5.333 = + 1.600 IPC damage/SBR
OOB G40: +7.775 - 5.333 = + 2.442 IPCs damage/SBR2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 9.027 - 7.334 = + 1.693 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR1 Fighter A1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 7.084 - 3.388 = + 3.696 IPC damage/SBR
Fg A1_fs_D1 Bomber first: + 6.331 - 3.389 = + 2.942 IPC damage/SBR
StB A1 D6+3, Fg A1 D1 Bomber first: +7.570 - 3.667 = + 3.903 IPCs damage/StB
Fg A1 D1 regular: + 7.084 - 3.667 = + 3.417 IPC damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 9.930 - 5.666 = + 4.264 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR2 Strategic Bombers doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 10.834 - 4 = +6.834 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +9.167 - 4 = +5.167 IPCs damage/SBR@Baron:
I like the idea of bomber A3 +1 when paired with a fighter Baron. It’s the same way TACs are used. Also like the idea of fighter intercepts and escorts A2.
The increased range would be bombers greatest asset as well as being able to hit factories.Nothing too radical and should be easy to adjust to.
I also like the +1 when no enemy planes are present as well.
I think deeper about this Strategic and Tactical Bomber issue.
I believe the right historically inspired rules for them should have been the following, but the StB was too iconic to make such a change:TACTICAL BOMBER
ATTACK 4
DEFENSE 3
MOVE 4
COST 11
Paired 1:1 with Tank, gives +1D to Tank (an historical point which I kept on defense to counter-balance the Attack @4 in all situations.)
TBR Attack 1 Damage 1D6STRATEGIC BOMBER
Attack 3 rise to 4
when no enemy’s plane (+1 Attack due to Air Supremacy bonus) or
when paired 1:1 with Fighter
Defense 1
Move 6
Cost 12
SBR Attack 1 Damage 1D6+2That way, when StBs are attacking a SZ without any Fighter support, then their attack value will be 3 while the defending Fg will keep their high Defense @4.
It will be only when they are paired with 1 Fighter escort per StB, that they can rise to an even combat Attack 4 against Defense @4.
I said more historical combat value because between TcBs and StBs, it seems to me that StBs were much more sitting duck than TcBs. So, it should have been StB which clearly needs a combined arms for Fighter support. Many TacBs types of Fg-bomber or Light-Bomber were able to fly without escort.
Here is what I would prefer as Fg unit to fix the other balance issue in SBR:
FIGHTER
Attack 3
Defense 4
Move 4
Cost 10
Gives +1A to StB when paired 1:1
SBR Attack 2 Defense 2 -
What I would find a decent way to prevent the historic abberation and also to not affect current gameplay too much, is if attacking bombers (TAC/STR) would work the same as defending AA-guns.
Meaning that bombers just never have more dice to roll than there are interceptors. That way, if the raiders want to play an effective economic game, they MUST send a decent amount of FTR along with the bombers.
Historic rationale: bombers do not actively scour the skies for intercepting FTR, but they will fire in defense if attacked.Another thing I would be happy about, is if FTR escort/intercept@2 instead of just 1, like bombers. No need to explain that one. But I think this is less important than limited dice for bombers.
Some examples that are very likely to occur in real games:
1. Incoming raid consists of 12STR, intercepted by 3FTR. Raiders fire 3@1, interceptors fire 3@2.
2. Same as above, but now incoming raid consists of 12STR + 3 escorts. Raiders fire 3@1 + 3@2, interceptors fire 3@2.
3. Same as 2nd example, now with 3 additional interceptors. Raiders fire 6@1 + 3@2, interceptors fire 6@2.
4. 30STR raiding, 12FTR intercepts. Raiders fire 12@1, interceptors fire 12@2.
5. Last example: 7STR + 5FTR escorts, 12 FTR intercepts. Raiders fire 7@1 + 5@2, interceptors fire 12@2.I think above examples perfectly illustrate that in such a system, bombers should usually not raid without enough escorts. FTR could even be given their normal combat values (i.e. @3 for escorts, @4 for interceptors), but that could be too bloody for game balance…
Here is how a game with A2 D2 Fighters could be done within the limits which G40 SBR odds provides:
@Baron:
Working on the most balanced SBR with Fighter A2 D2, and the winner is…
A more historical depiction of SBR which keeps interesting odds compared to G40 OOB.
In this one, intercepting Fighters are targeting attacking Bombers (TcBs or StBs) first, then escorting Fighters.There is also a special attack (as an AA gun @1 first strike against up to 2 Fighters) for each Strategic bomber (whichever the lesser number between Fgs or StBs) in air-to-air combat which provides some restriction about Bombers spamming strategies (Darken skies), see above chart for comparisons:
Strategic Bomber
Attack 4
Defense 1
Move 6
Cost 12
SBR or TBR damage 1D6+2.Tactical Bomber
Attack 3-4
Defense 3
Move 4
Cost 11
TBR damage 1D6.
Fighter in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 2
Defend 2
Always hit Bombers as first target, whether Tactical or Strategic (owner’s choice).Strategic Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1 first strike* as an AA gun @1 against up to 2 intercepting Fighters, whichever the lesser
Bombard Industrial Complex or Air Base or Naval Base, damage: 1D6+2Tactical Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1 first strike
Bombard Air Base or Naval Base, damage: 1D6IC’s AA gun: @1 against each Strategic Bomber
Naval Base or Air Base’s AA gun: @1 against each Strategic Bomber or Tactical bomber
I will explain sooner how I came to this conclusion.
Follow this line in each combat situation (fs= first strike):
D6+2 (First target: StB A1fs =2AA@1)@Baron:
Working on the most balanced SBR with Fighter A2 D2, a complete table is needed to make any useful comparison:
Comparison of various SBR OOB & HRules StB A1 damage 1D6+2 / Fg escort A2 Interceptor D2SBR HRules : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, various damage:
D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): : +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 OOB D6+2: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBRSBR HRules :1 StB A1 vs 1 Fg D2
D6+2 (First target: StB A1fs =2AA@1): +4.977 - 4.778 = +0.199 IPC damage/SBR
G40 OOB D6+2: + 5.486 - 3.667 = +1.819 IPC damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +4.977 - 4.778 = +0.199 IPC damage/StBSBR HR: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
D6+2 (First target: StB A1fs =2AA@1): +5.659 - 6.321 = -0.662 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 OOB D6+2: +4.85 - 5.056 = -0.206 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +3.874 - 7.185 = -3.311 IPCs damage/SBRSBR HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
D6+2 (First target: StB A1fs =2AA@1): +8.965 - 7.556 = +1.409 IPC damage/SBR
OOB G40 D6+2: +7.775 - 5.33 = +2.445 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +7.557 - 7.556 = +0.001 IPC damage/SBRSBR HR: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
D6+2 (First target: StB A1fs =2AA@1): +9.954 - 9.556 = +0.398 IPC damage/StB
G40 OOB D6+2: +10.973 - 7.334 = +3.639 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +9.954 - 9.556 = +0.398 IPC damage/StBSBR HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
D6+2 (First target: StB A1fs =2AA@1): +7.754 -4.777 = +2.977 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 OOB D6+2: +7.639 - 3.667 = +3.972 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +7.639 -5.159 = +2.480 IPCs damage/SBRSBR HR: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
D6+2 (First target: StB A1fs =2AA@1): +9.561 - 6.778 = +2.783 IPCs damage/SBR
G40 OOB D6+2: +11.459 - 5.666 = +5.793 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +11.162 - 6.315 = +4.847 IPCs damage/SBRSBR HRules : 2 StBs doing SBR without interceptor
D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +9.166 - 4 = +5.166 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40 D6+2: +9.166 - 4 = +5.166 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +9.166 - 4 = +5.166 IPCs damage/SBR -
I am wondering if most people are considering this situation in terms of the 1940 games, where the national economies and number of starting aircraft units are much larger? You know, where aircraft are somewhat easier to replace relative to the total money a nation collects, where the production targets are more numerous, and where airbases make the range of escort fighters a bit more viable? That would seem to be the case given the example numbers.
My preference would be a rule that works in exactly the same way for both 1942.2 and 1940. Using 1940 as the model, perhaps escort/intercept can be made to work well, but I’m not sure the overall advantage is worthwhile when the total numbers are scaled down like in 1942.2.
What I mean is that risking the loss of fighters might make more sense, when their replacement cost doesn’t represent such a large proportion of total income. For example, if Germany is collecting like 70-80 ipcs a round in Global, a couple fighters shot down here and there, might be workable when your facing down bomber stacks in the double digits, but in 1942.2 where theyre collecting like 40 ipc a round the loss of fighters can be a lot harder to stomach.
Ideally it would be nice to preserve the OOB cost structure and normal combat attack/defense values for aircraft. But to get an escort/intercept rule that works the way we want it to, this might prove quite challenging.
This is just an aside, but I’ve always found aircraft to be pretty “gamey” units in A&A. The level of realism they can embody comes up against definite limitations with restrictions on landing and such, and they way they target units in normal combat (e.g. the fodder mechanic, strafing etc.) We could of course HR then into an entirely new role as a unit, but this will necessarily alter the game in a substantial way, since aircraft have essentially worked the same in normal combat since Classic at least in the world war 2 games.
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To start somewhere, both viable SBRs values should be compare, and the less costlier should be the one for 1942.2.
Here is the first system which I believe can create a better incentive to SBR or intercept without too much turmoil.
Also, it is probably easy to implement such value on Triple A, for play-testing:Strategic Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 0
Bombard IC or AB or NB damage: D6+3Fighter in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1
Defend 1Tactical Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1
Bombard AB or NB damage: 1D6IC’s AA gun: @1 against each Strategic Bomber
Naval Base or Air Base’s AA gun: @1 against each Strategic Bomber or Tactical bomber
@Baron:
Summary: StB A0 Damage: 1D6**+3**, Fg A1_fs_D1
1 Strategic Bomber doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 5.417 - 2 = +3.417 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 4.514 - 3.667 = + 0.847 IPC. damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 3.762 - 5.056 = - 1.294 IPC. damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR1 Fighter A1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 6.958 - 5.055 = + 1.903 IPC damage/SBR run
Fg A1_fs_D1 Bomber first: + 5.554 - 5.055 = + 0.499 IPC damage/SBR
StB A1 D6+3, Fg A1 D1 Bomber first: +7.094 - 5.333 = + 1.761 IPCs damage/StB
Fg A1 D1 regular: + 6.933 - 5.333 = + 1.600 IPC damage/SBR
OOB G40: +7.775 - 5.333 = + 2.442 IPCs damage/SBR2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 9.027 - 7.334 = + 1.693 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR1 Fighter A1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 7.084 - 3.388 = + 3.696 IPC damage/SBR
Fg A1_fs_D1 Bomber first: + 6.331 - 3.389 = + 2.942 IPC damage/SBR
StB A1 D6+3, Fg A1 D1 Bomber first: +7.570 - 3.667 = + 3.903 IPCs damage/StB
Fg A1 D1 regular: + 7.084 - 3.667 = + 3.417 IPC damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 9.930 - 5.666 = + 4.264 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR2 Strategic Bombers doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 10.834 - 4 = +6.834 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +9.167 - 4 = +5.167 IPCs damage/SBRTo get an easy comparison point with OOB G40 SBR:
G1940 OOB SBR:
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
Sum: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR@Baron:
Working on the most balanced SBR with Fighter A2 D2, a more complete table is needed to make for additional options:
Comparison of various SBR OOB & HRules StB A1 damage 1D6+2 /1D6+3 / 2D6 / Fg escort A2 Interceptor D2
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35883.msg1409543#msg1409543
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35614.msg1392008#msg1392008Here is the minimum damage for each StB killed by AAA according to SBR basic damage:
D6: +1 IPC
D6+1: +1 IPC
D6+2: +2 IPCs
D6+3: +3 IPCs
2D6:+3 IPCsSBR HRules : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, various damage:
Regular SBRs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when STB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPCs damage/SBR / +1.084 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1 (avg 4.5 IPCs): +3.750 - 2 = +1.750 IPCs damage/SBR / +1.917 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.916 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3 (avg 6.5 IPCs): +5.417 - 2 = +3.417 IPCs damage/SBR / +3.917 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6 (avg 7 IPCs): +5.833 - 2 = +3.833 IPCs damage/SBR / +4.333 IPCs damage/SBRG40 OOB D6+2: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR
Triple A 1942.2 D6: +2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPC damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6: +2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPC damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBRSBR HRules :1 StB A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
Regular SBRs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when STB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +3.611 - 5.333 = -1.722 IPCs damage/SBR / -1.611 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +3.75 - 5.333 = -1.583 IPCs damage/SBR / -1.472 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +4.723 - 5.333 = -0.61 IPC damage/SBR / -0.388 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3: +5.278 - 5.333 = -0.055 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.278 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +5.556 - 5.333 = +0.223 IPC damage/SBR / +0.556 IPCs damage/SBRRegular SBRs (First target: StB A1_first strike_ =2AA@1) / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 StB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +4.712 - 6.321 = -1.609 IPCs damage/SBR / -1.514 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +4.375 - 4.778 = -0.403 IPC damage/SBR / -0.283 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +4.977 - 4.778 = +0.199 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.440 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+3: +5.579 - 4.778 = +0.801 IPCs damage/SBR / +1.162 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +5.880 - 4.778 = +1.102 IPCs damage/SBR / +1.463 IPCs damage/SBRG40 OOB D6+2: + 5.486 - 3.667 = +1.819 IPC damage/SBR
Triple A 1942.2 D6: +3.69 - 3.667 = +0.023 IPC damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6: +3.8 - 4.8 = -1 IPC damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +4.977 - 4.778 = +0.199 IPC damage/StBSBR HR: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Regular SBRs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when StB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +2.963 - 7.556 = -4.593 IPCs damage/SBR / -4.519 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +3.334 - 7.556 = -4.222 IPCs damage/SBR / -4.148 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +3.704 - 7.556 = -3.852 IPCs damage/SBR / -3.704 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3: +4.074 - 7.556 = -3.482 IPCs damage/SBR / -3.260 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +4.260 - 7.556 = -3.296 IPCs damage/SBR / -3.074 IPCs damage/SBRD6+2 (StB=2AA@1): +5.093- 7.556 = -2.463 IPCs damage/SBR
D6+3 (StB=2AA@1): +5.463 -7.556= -2.093 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6 (StB=2AA@1): +5.649- 7.556 = -1.907 IPCs damage/SBRFirst target: StB A1fs =2AA@1: as AA against up to 2 Fgs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 StB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +4.712 - 6.321 = -1.609 IPCs damage/SBR / -1.514 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +5.186 - 6.321 = -1.135 IPC damage/SBR / -1.040 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +5.659 - 6.321 = -0.662 IPCs damage/SBR / -0.473 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+3: +6.132 -6.321 = -0.189 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.095 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +6.369 - 6.321 = +0.048 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.764 IPCs damage/SBRG40 OOB D6+2: +4.85 - 5.056 = -0.206 IPCs damage/SBR
Triple A 1942.2 D6: +2.025 - 5.056 = -3.031 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6:+3.071 - 7.185 = -4.114 IPC. damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +3.874 - 7.185 = -3.311 IPCs damage/SBRSBR HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Regular SBRs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 StB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +7.593 - 8.667 = -1.074 IPCs damage/SBR / -0.926 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+1: +8.333 - 8.667 = -0.334 IPC damage/SBR / -0.186 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.074 - 8.667 = +0.407 IPC damage/SBR / +0.703 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+3: +9.815 - 8.667 = +1.148 IPCs damage/SBR / +1.592 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +10.185 - 8.667 = +1.518 IPCs damage/SBR / +1.962 IPCs damage/SBRD6+2 (StB=2AA@1): +10.648 - 8.667 = +1.981 IPC damage/SBR
D6+3 (StB=2AA@1): +11.389 - 8.667= +2.722 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6 (StB=2AA@1): +11.759 - 8.667 = +3.092 IPCs damage/SBR(First target: StB=2AA@1): StB A1 as AAA against up to 2 Fgs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 StB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +7.870 - 8.667 = -0.797 IPCs damage/SBR / -0.723 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +8.241 - 8.667 = -0.426 IPC damage/SBR / -0.352 IPCs damage/SBR
D6+2: +8.611 - 8.667 = -0.056 IPC damage/SBR / +0.092 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+3:+8.981 - 8.667 = +0.314 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.536 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +9.167- 8.667 = +0.500 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.722 IPCs damage/SBR(First target: StB A1_first strike_ as AAA vs up to 2 Fgs) / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 StB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +8.095 - 7.556 = +0.539 IPC damage/SBR / +0.626 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+1: +8.530 - 7.556 = +0.974 IPC damage/SBR / +1.061 IPCs damage/SBR
D6+2: 8.965 - 7.556 = +1.409 IPC damage/SBR / +1.583 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3:+9.399 - 7.556 = +1.843 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.104 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +9.617- 7.556 = +2.061 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.322 IPCs damage/SBROOB G40 D6+2: +7.775 - 5.33 = +2.445 IPCs damage/SBR
Triple A 1942.2 D6: +6.155 - 5.33 = +0.825 IPC damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6: +6.018 - 7.556 = -1.538 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +7.557 - 7.556 = +0.001 IPCs damage/StBSBR HR: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Regular SBRs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 StB or 2 STB are killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +7.222 - 10.667 = -3.445 IPCs damage/SBR / -3.222 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +8.334 - 10.667 = -2.333 IPC damage/SBR / -2.110 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.445 - 10.667 = -1.222 IPCs damage/SBR / -0.336 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+3: +10.556 - 10.667 = -0.111 IPC damage/SBR / +0.557 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +11.112 - 10.667 = +0.445 IPC damage/SBR / +1.113 IPCs damage/SBRFirst target: StB A1 first strike, as AAA up to 2 Fgs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 or 2 StBs are killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +7.547 - 9.556 = -2.009 IPCs damage/SBR / -1.835 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +8.751 - 9.556 = -0.805 IPCs damage/SBR / -0.631 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.954 - 9.556 = +0.398 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.746 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3: +11.158 - 9.556 = +1.602 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.124 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +11.760 - 9.556 = +2.204 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.726 IPCs damage/SBRG40 OOB D6+2: +10.973 - 7.334 = +3.639 IPCs damage/SBR
Triple A 1942.2 D6: +8.195 - 7.334 = +0.861 IPC damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6: +7.547 - 9.556 = -2.009 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +9.954 - 9.556 = +0.398 IPC damage/StBSBR HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
Regular SBRs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 StB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +7.361 - 5.333 = +2.028 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.195 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +8.194 - 5.333 = +2.861 IPCs damage/SBR / +3.028 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.027 - 5.333 = +3.694 IPCs damage/SBR / +4.027 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3: +9.861 - 5.333 = +4.528 IPCs damage/SBR / +5.028 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +10.277 - 5.333 = +4.944 IPCs damage/SBR / +5.444 IPCs damage/SBRD6+2 (First target: StB=2AA@1): +7.500 -5.333 = +2.167 IPCs damage/SBR
D6+3 (First target: StB=2AA@1): +6.5= +8.055 -5.333 = +2.722 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6 (First target: StB=2AA@1): +8.333 -5.333 = +3 IPCs damage/SBR(First target: StB A1fs =2AA@1): / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 StB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +6.550 - 4.777 = +1.773 IPCs damage/SBR / +1.893 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +7.152 - 4.777 = +2.375 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.495 IPCs damage/SBR
D6+2: +7.754 -4.777 =+2.977 IPCs damage/SBR / +3.218 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+3:+8.356 -4.777 = +3.579 IPCs damage/SBR / +3.940 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +8.657 -4.777 = +3.880 IPCs damage/SBR / +4.241 IPCs damage/SBRG40 OOB D6+2: +7.639 - 3.667 = +3.972 IPCs damage/SBR
Triple A 1942.2 D6: +5.973 - 3.667 = +2.306 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6: +5.973 - 5.159 = +0.814 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +7.639 -5.159 = +2.480 IPCs damage/SBRSBR HR: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
Regular SBRs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 or 2 StBs are killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +7.861 - 7.334 = +0.527 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.805 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +9.250 - 7.334 = +1.916 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.194 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +10.639 - 7.334 = +3.304 IPCs damage/SBR / +3.860 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3: +12.028 - 7.334 = +4.694 IPCs damage/SBR / +5.527 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +12.722 - 7.334 = +5.388 IPCs damage/SBR / +6.221 IPCs damage/SBRD6+2 (StB=2AA@1): +9.306 - 7.334 = +1.972 IPCs damage/SBR
D6+3 (StB=2AA@1):+10.695 - 7.334 = +3.361 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6 (StB=2AA@1): +11.389 - 7.334 = +4.055 IPCs damage/SBRFirst target: StB A1 first strike, as AAA against up to 2 Fgs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 or 2 StBs are killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +6.690 - 6.778 = -0.088 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.153 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +8.125 - 6.778 = +1.347 IPCs damage/SBR / +1.588 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.561 - 6.778 = +2.783 IPCs damage/SBR / +3.264 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3: +10.996 - 6.778 = +4.218 IPCs damage/SBR / +4.940 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +11.714 - 6.778 = +4.936 IPCs damage/SBR / +5.658 IPCs damage/SBRG40 OOB D6+2: +11.459 - 5.666 = +5.793 IPCs damage/SBR
Triple A 1942.2 D6: +8.403 - 5.666 = +2.737 IPCs damage/StB
OOB 1942.2 D6: +8.214 - 6.315 = +1.899 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +11.162 - 6.315 = +4.847 IPCs damage/SBRSBR HRules : 2 StBs doing SBR without interceptor
Regular SBRs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 or 2 STBs are killed by IC’s AAA
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +5.834 - 4 = +1.834 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.168 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1 (avg 4.5 IPCs): +7.500 - 4 = +3.500 IPCs damage/SBR / +3.834 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +9.166 - 4 = +5.166 IPCs damage/SBR / +5.832 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3 (avg 6.5 IPCs): +10.834 - 4 = +6.834 IPCs damage/SBR / +7.834 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6 (avg 7 IPCs): +11.666 - 4 = +7.666 IPCs damage/SBR / +8.666 IPCs damage/SBROOB G40 D6+2: +9.166 - 4 = +5.166 IPCs damage/SBR
Triple A 1942.2 D6: +5.834 - 4 = +1.834 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6: +5.834 - 4 = +1.834 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +9.166 - 4 = +5.166 IPCs damage/SBR -
@Baron:
I’m not so familiar with calculations, but i did some simulation for this case. I found that on average the damage is about equal to the cost. That means that it is not a very strong strategy. You do need some luck for it to be effective. However, if you have average luck, you’ll be cutting germany’s income quite a bit. If at the same time you are able to kick him out of africa, you will give Rusia a much easier time to hold off Germany, until you are able to start a second front in Europe.
You are helping me thinking deeper on that issue.
This question rise in my mind:
what is the average TUV change in a fruitful combat with a combined attacking forces with ground and air units?It is easier to calculate what is the average TUV (Total Unit Value) change per SBR with 1 Strategic Bomber without any interception.
1 Strategic Bomber doing SBR against no interceptor / with special HR bonus damage (+1 /+2/+3) to IC when STB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPCs damage/SBR / (1 damage pt if StB is killed) +1.084 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1 (avg 4.5 IPCs): +3.750 - 2 = +1.750 IPCs damage/SBR / (1 damage pt… ) +1.917 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR / (2 damage pt…) +2.916 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3 (avg 6.5 IPCs): +5.417 - 2 = +3.417 IPCs damage/SBR / (3 damage pt… ) +3.917 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6 (avg 7 IPCs): +5.833 - 2 = +3.833 IPCs damage/SBR / (3 damage pt… ) +4.333 IPCs damage/SBRG40 OOB D6+2: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR
Triple A 1942.2 D6: +2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPC damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6: +2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPC damage/SBRBut what is the usual TUV change an attacker can hope for in a not so risky battle, on average?
Is it far better or not than +2.583? -
@Young:
@BM,
During Alpha 2 I was upset that each interceptor got 1@2 and each escort and bomber were 1@1. This prevented any SBRs being attempted and a game mechanic I loved in classic was now extinct in 1940 Global due to the risk vs. reward. Than Alpha 3 came out with all air units hitting @1 during air battles and I was so happy because if I wanted to conduct a SBR, my teammates couldn’t scream “PLEASE DON’T” at me for tring a foolish strategy. So, I’m happy for the way things are and my lone bombers without escorts can still have a chance to get by (there were lots of guns on bombers, so I don’t have an issue from an historical view point). The problem with the India bombing raids is not the air battles or the fact that it can get maxed with a couple of raids, it’s the UK Pacific income and the inability to repair faster than it gets damaged. The SB+AB=+2 DMG house rule helps the UK Pacific problem without hurting the Europe theaters because there are lots of Air bases in Europe. If attacking bomber gets zero defence capability against interceptors, SBR would go extinct like Alpha +2 IMO. What would happen is I would raid India with 2 bombers against 2 interceptors and the UK could just roll 4@1 if they like (interceptors + AA Guns) I would not expose my bombers to those odds if I can’t fire back, plus American players who have watched Memphis Belle a hundred times would wonder why their Super Fortress bombers don’t have a least a 1/6 chance to hit in an air battle during SBRs. The way I see it, the SBR mechanic doesn’t need changing IMO because you never see it too much or too little (at least in our groups), there are problem areas with the rules like cruisers, neutral territories, the victory conditions etc…. but I’m happy with the balance of SBRs.
I’m very grateful Young Grasshopper for this deeper and more extensive answer about what criterions where important for a good SBR.
There is at least two points which are beyond statistics comparison.
Even if odds are really goods for the attacker (with higher bombing damage such as 1D6+3), having a defenseless Strategic bomber @0 in dogfight is quite an intuitive deterrent to use bombers in Strategic Bombing Raid. And it is less funny to have those big and costly unit being passively slaughtered.Also, the historical depiction is a pretty good annoying argument against a zero-attack strategic bomber.
Flying-fortresses defensive formation were not defenseless planes, even if they were still vulnerable against interceptors.Also, if YG’s fellow players feel that Alpha 2 SBR was a wasted strategy, while the actual G40 OOB SBR is sound, this give me another target.
Any viable SBR should be pretty much as efficient as it is actually with OOB G40 SBR.
And odds clearly reveals how G40 OOB SBR gives pretty good ones for the attacker.
One issue is that the actual values are so against interceptors, that defender decision to keep all his fighters grounded is most of the optimized one. While intercepting is much like a gambit than a sound tactics.Now, with your answer YG, I really made my decision on which of the many values I calculated is the optimized one, funnier, historical, at least as balance as the actual OOB SBR rules, and to have the better incentive while staying as close as possible with the odds of OOB G40 SBR.
So, thanks a lot YG.
I will probably submit a more complete post with all the reasons which make the most interesting SBR.
For now, here is the real winner for Global 40 SBR after a closer analysis and comparison.I already provided the answer elsewhere, the only difference is that I would advocate for a bombing damage of 1D6+3, instead of 1D6+2.
And I would use oztea idea, but rise to +3 minimum damage per StB shooted down by IC’s AA, instead of +2 minimum damage:I still recommend D6+2 (+2 minimum damage) for 1942.2 SBR, because the economy is so much lower than Global.
If you take a look at the table below and compare D6+3 with OOB G40 SBR, you will find that the numbers are pretty close from each other, except when there is no interception, but the overall odds stay similar and you gain a much more interesting dynamics which provides a lot of incentive to make such interceptions as a vital and optimized defense against bombers run.
@Baron:
Totally different suggestion I have been considering.
Bombers ALWAYS do their +2 damage, even if hit by AAA.
To make SBR more attractive.You could consider this rule to offset your beefing up of fighters.
From a realistic standpoint it has always been gut-wrenching to send over 2 bombers and get snake-eyed. Knowing that you just sent over probably 1000 bombers and not a single bomb fell on anything important.
Bombers ALWAYS do their +2 damage, even if hit by AAA.
Do you also imply when destroyed by interceptors, Bombers can still do +2 damage?After a fast review, I think I would add your idea as integrated part of the above SBR HR, since it has a small statistical impact (approx. 3,00 IPCs/SBR instead of 2,583 IPCs/SBR.)
I would keep the +2 damage only if hit by AAA exclusively, when an interceptor hit bombers, it is destroyed with no compensation.
That way, it would provide an additional incentive to intercept bombers to wholy protect IC.
And this is a double lever effect.
Attacker will more willingly commit bombers and defender will be more incline to throw fighters against them.
And this is in addition to the fact, that interceptor’s hit must be on bombers first.
It is a much more interesting target.@Baron:
Working on the most balanced SBR with Fighter A2 D2, and the winner is…
A more historical depiction of SBR which keeps interesting odds compared to G40 OOB.
In this one, intercepting Fighters are targeting attacking Bombers (TcBs or StBs) first, then escorting Fighters.There is also a special attack (as an AA gun @1 first strike against up to 2 Fighters) for each Strategic bomber (whichever the lesser number between Fgs or StBs) in air-to-air combat which provides some restriction about Bombers spamming strategies (Darken skies), see above chart for comparisons:
Strategic Bomber
Attack 4
Defense 1
Move 6
Cost 12
SBR or TBR damage 1D6+2. [EDIT: 1D6+3 for G40]Tactical Bomber
Attack 3-4
Defense 3
Move 4
Cost 11
TBR damage 1D6.
Fighter in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 2
Defend 2
Always hit Bombers as first target, whether Tactical or Strategic (owner’s choice).Strategic Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1 first strike* as an AA gun @1 against up to 2 intercepting Fighters, whichever the lesser
Bombard Industrial Complex or Air Base or Naval Base, damage: 1D6+2Tactical Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1 first strike
Bombard Air Base or Naval Base, damage: 1D6IC’s AA gun: @1 against each Strategic Bomber
Naval Base or Air Base’s AA gun: @1 against each Strategic Bomber or Tactical bomber
I will explain sooner how I came to this conclusion.
Follow this line in each combat situation (fs= first strike):
D6+2 (First target: StB A1fs =2AA@1)@Baron:
Working on the most balanced SBR with Fighter A2 D2, a more complete table is needed to make for additional options:
Comparison of various SBR OOB & HRules StB A1 damage 1D6+2 /1D6+3 / 2D6 / Fg escort A2 Interceptor D2
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35883.msg1409543#msg1409543
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35614.msg1392008#msg1392008Here is the minimum damage for each StB killed by AAA according to SBR basic damage:
D6: +1 IPC
D6+1: +1 IPC
D6+2: +2 IPCs [Edit: 1942.2]
D6+3: +3 IPCs [[color=red]Edit: Global 40]
2D6:+3 IPCsSBR HRules : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, various damage:
Regular SBRs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when STB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.916 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3 (avg 6.5 IPCs): +5.417 - 2 = +3.417 IPCs damage/SBR / +3.917 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6 (avg 7 IPCs): +5.833 - 2 = +3.833 IPCs damage/SBR / +4.333 IPCs damage/SBRG40 OOB D6+2: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6: +2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPC damage/SBRSBR HRules :1 StB A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
Regular SBRs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when STB is killed by IC’s AAARegular SBRs (First target: StB A1_first strike_ =2AA@1) / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 StB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +4.712 - 6.321 = -1.609 IPCs damage/SBR / -1.514 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +4.375 - 4.778 = -0.403 IPC damage/SBR / -0.283 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +4.977 - 4.778 = +0.199 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.440 IPC damage/SBR
**1D6+3: +5.579 - 4.778 = +0.801 IPCs damage/SBR / +1.162 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +5.880 - 4.778 = +1.102 IPCs damage/SBR / +1.463 IPCs damage/SBRG40 OOB D6+2: + 5.486 - 3.667 = +1.819 IPC damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6: +3.8 - 4.8 = -1 IPC damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +4.977 - 4.778 = +0.199 IPC damage/StBSBR HR: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
First target: StB A1fs =2AA@1: as AA against up to 2 Fgs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 StB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +4.712 - 6.321 = -1.609 IPCs damage/SBR / -1.514 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +5.186 - 6.321 = -1.135 IPC damage/SBR / -1.040 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +5.659 - 6.321 = -0.662 IPCs damage/SBR / -0.473 IPC damage/SBR
**1D6+3: +6.132 -6.321 = -0.189 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.095 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +6.369 - 6.321 = +0.048 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.764 IPCs damage/SBRG40 OOB D6+2: +4.85 - 5.056 = -0.206 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6:+3.071 - 7.185 = -4.114 IPC. damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +3.874 - 7.185 = -3.311 IPCs damage/SBRSBR HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
(First target: StB=2AA@1): StB A1 as AAA against up to 2 Fgs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 StB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +7.870 - 8.667 = -0.797 IPCs damage/SBR / -0.723 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +8.241 - 8.667 = -0.426 IPC damage/SBR / -0.352 IPCs damage/SBR
D6+2: +8.611 - 8.667 = -0.056 IPC damage/SBR / +0.092 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+3:+8.981 - 8.667 = +0.314 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.536 IPCs damage/SBR
2D6: +9.167- 8.667 = +0.500 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.722 IPCs damage/SBR(First target: StB A1_first strike_ as AAA vs up to 2 Fgs) / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 StB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +8.095 - 7.556 = +0.539 IPC damage/SBR / +0.626 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+1: +8.530 - 7.556 = +0.974 IPC damage/SBR / +1.061 IPCs damage/SBR
D6+2: 8.965 - 7.556 = +1.409 IPC damage/SBR / +1.583 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3:+9.399 - 7.556 = +1.843 IPCs damage/SBR / _+2.104 IPCs** damage/SBR_**
2D6: +9.617- 7.556 = +2.061 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.322 IPCs damage/SBROOB G40 D6+2: +7.775 - 5.33 = +2.445 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6: +6.018 - 7.556 = -1.538 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +7.557 - 7.556 = +0.001 IPCs damage/StBSBR HR: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
First target: StB A1 first strike, as AAA up to 2 Fgs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 or 2 StBs are killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +7.547 - 9.556 = -2.009 IPCs damage/SBR / -1.835 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +8.751 - 9.556 = -0.805 IPCs damage/SBR / -0.631 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.954 - 9.556 = +0.398 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.746 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3: +11.158 - 9.556 = +1.602 IPCs damage/SBR / _+2.124 IPCs** damage/SBR_**
2D6: +11.760 - 9.556 = +2.204 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.726 IPCs damage/SBRG40 OOB D6+2: +10.973 - 7.334 = +3.639 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6: +7.547 - 9.556 = -2.009 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +9.954 - 9.556 = +0.398 IPC damage/StBSBR HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
(First target: StB A1fs =2AA@1): / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 StB is killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +6.550 - 4.777 = +1.773 IPCs damage/SBR / +1.893 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +7.152 - 4.777 = +2.375 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.495 IPCs damage/SBR
D6+2: +7.754 -4.777 =+2.977 IPCs damage/SBR / +3.218 IPC damage/SBR
1D6+3:+8.356 -4.777 = +3.579 IPCs damage/SBR / _+3.940 IPCs** damage/SBR_**
2D6: +8.657 -4.777 = +3.880 IPCs damage/SBR / +4.241 IPCs damage/SBRG40 OOB D6+2: +7.639 - 3.667 = +3.972 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6: +5.973 - 5.159 = +0.814 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +7.639 -5.159 = +2.480 IPCs damage/SBRSBR HR: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
First target: StB A1 first strike, as AAA against up to 2 Fgs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 or 2 StBs are killed by IC’s AAA
1D6: +6.690 - 6.778 = -0.088 IPCs damage/SBR / +0.153 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1: +8.125 - 6.778 = +1.347 IPCs damage/SBR / +1.588 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2: +9.561 - 6.778 = +2.783 IPCs damage/SBR / +3.264 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3: +10.996 - 6.778 = +4.218 IPCs damage/SBR / _+4.940 IPCs** damage/SBR_**
2D6: +11.714 - 6.778 = +4.936 IPCs damage/SBR / +5.658 IPCs damage/SBRG40 OOB D6+2: +11.459 - 5.666 = +5.793 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB 1942.2 D6: +8.214 - 6.315 = +1.899 IPCs damage/SBR
1942.2 D6+2: +11.162 - 6.315 = +4.847 IPCs damage/SBRSBR HRules : 2 StBs doing SBR without interceptor
Regular SBRs / with special HR bonus damage to IC when 1 or 2 STBs are killed by IC’s AAA
1D6 (avg 3.5 IPCs): +5.834 - 4 = +1.834 IPCs damage/SBR / +2.168 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+1 (avg 4.5 IPCs): +7.500 - 4 = +3.500 IPCs damage/SBR / +3.834 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+2 (avg 5.5 IPCs): +9.166 - 4 = +5.166 IPCs damage/SBR / +5.832 IPCs damage/SBR
1D6+3 (avg 6.5 IPCs): +10.834 - 4 = +6.834 IPCs damage/SBR / _+7.834 IPCs** damage/SBR_**
2D6 (avg 7 IPCs): +11.666 - 4 = +7.666 IPCs damage/SBR / +8.666 IPCs damage/SBROOB G40 D6+2: +9.166 - 4 = +5.166 IPCs damage/SBR****
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