OK, I know some of this has been posted in other threads, but trying to consolidate this particular aspect of Axis strategy…
The all-out assault on Karelia is a non-winner based on the counter moves I have seen posted. And there is no way for Germany to invade UK or US, and Japan is not going to invade US without a LOT more $.
So what of the purely economic strategy?
Germany pulls back in Europe: abandoning Ukraine and Norway while fortifying Western, Southern, Eastern, and Germany. Air force is reserved exclusively for taking on UK and US navy. Fighter takes out the Egypt sub, fighter against Labrador, bomber and sub on Gibraltar Battleship, 3 fighters (and any remaining Baltic fleet) against battleship and transport around UK.
And for a buy, Germany does a CARRIER and a transport in Southern, balance is INF.
Subsequent round, Germany builds a fighter, a transport, and more INF. And from G3 builds only INF and the occasional fighter to replace losses.
This would allow Germany to “bridge” units into Africa, and for at least the first couple of rounds (except for the US) be un-opposed in Africa, and ferrying in up to 6 INF a round. Carrier, plus a fighter or 2, battleship, and transports should hold up against UK airpower for several rounds also. Meanwhile, Germany is blowing up all UK navy through round 2, and possibly even getting rid of transports as late as G3.
Of course this gets teamed up with Japan building transport/INF builds and “fanning out” to take Australia, New Zealand, Soviet East, Yakut, India, Persia, China, Sinkiang… not really focusing on forcing a head to head with Russia, but instead seeking to take all of UK’s income away, prevent replacement of naval units by UK. UK IPC’s would be the #1 target, with secondary against Russia, then US in Asia and later Pacific islands.
By my count, doing this would drop UK income to 10 IPC’s Germany and Japan would be PLUS 20 IPC’s just from UK territories, plus another 4 from Russia and 4 from USA. Russia would be down 4 in the east, but UP 5 in Europe (Ukraine and Norway) for a net +1. Also by my count, this could be done by the end of Round 3 in a stretch, round 4 in most cases.
Has anyone here had any direct experience with a concentrated UK economic blast? How has it fared? Other than repeated battles against US forces in Africa and Russia building up an unbreachable wall that will eventually be used on offense against Eastern, what counters do you see, or have worked for you?
I would say that one of the biggest mistakes people make is overestimating germany’s ability to attack karelia. Another is to underestimate russia’s ability to attack. Stacking karelia and moving the inf from Even and the armor from SFE happens pretty frequently on first round russia. As germany, once you commit to the carrier/transport, you are quite committed. Why? Because you cannot have troops in eastern by round 3.
In the first round if you buy carrier, transport, and 2 inf. You consolidate into eastern europe and leave western with 2 inf and a fighter. Next round russia moves its armor and infantry into karelia, and hits the caucus if they feel like it with an inf and 2 fighters. They could go into finland/norway, but if I saw germany building their navy, I would strike at their weak point. That is, not-navy.
Germany then builds a fighter, transport, and 4 more inf, and boats over their 2 inf from the first turn. Africa is looking pretty nice. At the end of the 2nd turn Germany has about 9 inf, 8 armor, and 4 ftrs (less if UK built navy the first round and you hit it). Russia has about 29 inf, 4 armor, and 2 fighters. Eastern europe will then be taken with substantial force, killing most of germany’s offense. Calling Germany’s counterattack weak would be the overstatement of the year. Not to mention that russia may very well build 4 armor and an inf on their third turn. This poses a threat to berlin in G3 of about 10 inf, 8 arm, and 2 fighters. At this point there is nothing they can do, the game is over. You could recover from your G1 build by retreating to berlin in G2 and building inf, so you have more like 19 inf, 8 armor, 4 fighters, aagun. Unfortunately, you have just conceded eastern europe to a dead zone and given up on ukraine. Russia could always go hard into it and give you a roughly 50/50 chance of taking it back on the counterattack. If you don’t take it back that first round you have problems because you must defend germany as well as southern europe. Not to mention that allied fighters land sealing up your slimmer of hope for a counterattack. Russia is then up 6 IPCs, 3 really because ukraine is usually traded. However, eastern europe is not traded so germany is -6 because they probably cannot trade eastern if they do not retake it in G3. Africa helps make up for this loss, but unfortunately you are handing IPCs to the one country you don’t want to. The allies don’t even need to get involved until this round to help russia out if japan is out skinny dipping. That leaves the US transports free to suicide into africa, stalling your IPC gains.
I think you could do the above as an interesting play, though I am not saying there are holes in it from either side and moves you could do to swing the odds more either way. Overall though I think it makes russia too strong. However, to play it the way you suggested would be suicide I think. When you commit to that first round build, you are committing to at best trading eastern throughout the game. If you do not do the above suggested move on G2 or something similar, I see no way besides amazing dice that you could win the game.
Never ignore the russians. They’ll hand you a bottle of stoli and before you know it it’s all over.
It might work vs a PC AI, but you already know what most of us veteran’s think of the AI’s strategic aptitudes.
And if you drop the carrier and go Transports (1 MAYBE 2) backed only by the existing Battleship?
I know the UK fighters will be an issue… if they are in Caucuses.
In G2 add another Transport (now 3 or 4 and a BB) and keep building INF to hold off Russia in Eastern, and INF and a tank each round to ferry into Africa to keep grabbing IPC’s?
Basically, I am looking to see if there is a way to crush UK’s economic power, yet still hold off the Russians until Japan can move into the fray in force (about 5 rounds before major force can be brought to bear by Japan)
And what would a US response be to such a strong move in Africa? Would they be the primary counter, leaving Germany to deal only with Russia in Europe? Would they do a “big gulp” and go after Japan directly?
I think the main problem is not the carrier, but the transports. If you have the transports, then you are obviously going to use them. So in round 2 you are going to siphon off 4-6 infantry to africa. That’s 4-6 infantry that cannot be used against russia.
Russia could also take an alternate course than the one I mentioned. Actually they could take this course, and then switch to the other one. If they strafe ukraine (and take baltic), and then return to karelia, lets say that on average karelia will have 12 inf, 3arm, 2 ftr. Against a potential attack of 6 inf, 5 arm, 5 ftr, 1 bmb. Strong enough to keep germany’s shot at karelia under 50%, which is good enough for me. The 4 inf from moscow move to caucus. Those 4 inf will equal 1 turn of germany’s builds once they get to africa, and will at least bottle germany up so that they can’t go for asia.
What do you do the first round as germany, do you go after AES? I assume not since you are bridging troops and using your fighters to take care of the navy. In UK1 the UK has 4 inf + 1arm + 1ftr stacked. As germany you would have to land your fighters to be able to deal with this and with the UK navy if they are building one. Next round you deal with the UK and take them out by bringing in your inf from southern europe. You aren’t really raking in the IPCs that will make up for your loss of them in the east until round 4.
As an allied response, I don’t know I’d have to play against it I think. My best guess would be bombers, lots of them. First round 2 bombers for the UK and the US. UK2 will either allow them to use their force in africa to attack substantially, clear your navy (3 4’s vs. 1 4 + 2 1’s), or strategic bomb. If they clear the navy they could land in syria which would then be backed up by russian forces. The US can use its 1st bomber in US2 similarly to mop up, and then the bombing raids begin negating germany’s gained land.
You might be able to get away with 1 tran on G1 but other than that you’ll be doomed. You can’t afford to take too much out of Europe. Beside Germany doesn’t need much to take Afr. Once you clear Egy, you just need to blitz your arm around and kill the guy that starts in South Afr.
G1 - transport 2 more inf to lib.
G2 - take egy (probably mt now as UK probably moved out), regardless you can take with ease on G2.
G3 - blitz around
Otherwise,
If you get too ship crazy with Germany
You’ll lose EE very quickly to the Russians since there will be no threat of a counter by Ger. Russia could even just keep strafing EE.
Imagine RR with 19 inf, 3 arm, 2 ftr on Kar.
Germany doesn’t attack and buys 1 trn 8 inf.
Now G moves 2 inf to Afr so the best Germany can have in EE is 9 inf, 8 arm, 3-4 ftrs and an aa.
Now say Russia buy 3 inf, 3 arm on Rd 2. So Kar has 22 inf, 7 arm (1 from the east), 2 ftrs.
After G2 with only 4 more inf to Afr (using your now 2 trns), then EE is only going to be at about 13 inf, 8 arm, 4 ftrs, aa.
Now Russia can strike on R3
49 vs. 58 (7 hits vs 10)
39 vs. 42 (6 hits vs 7)
32 vs. 30 (6 hits vs 6) Rus retreats with 6 arm 2 ftrs
While Ger is left with only 4 ftrs, 1 arm.
Or you can just take out the German airforce if you keep going.
You’ll end up with about 2 arm and 2 ftrs left. And Germany is left with just Inf.
Now you may have to pull those troops from Afr anyway to help in Europe.
Also on UK-US 3 you’re likely to lose WE as well. Even if Germany has 12-14 inf in Ger, you can’t take WE and EE without any arm.
Oh yeah, I forgot you’re probably never going to be able to use your navy.
G1 - buy trn
UK 1 land 3 ftrs 1 bom in Cauc with with Rus support on R2 with inf or 2 and R ftrs.
Now UK can have 3 ftrs 1 bom attack the Ger fleet followed up by a US bom and 2 Russian ftrs if need be.
But most likely the British will kill all the ships on UK2.
Thus you just wasted 8 IPC for a tran. even if you bought 2 on G1.
I’d still send 3 ftrs and 1 bom after them. At worst I kill all your trans for my planes. UK can absorb the losses, Germany cannot.
Ah but those Fighters in use against a German navy are fighters not used against Japan’s transport fleet.
And those extra forces in Egypt came from India, futher weakening the position of the Allies in Asia…
So Germany loses it’s med fleet and races some troops around Africa for a while grabbing extra IPC’s until killed (and UK or USA has to send troops in after them). Germany ends up in a defensive fight against UK and USSR (so what else is new?)
Meanwhile, Japan is moving in Asia with UK’s main defensive point (India) abandoned (or nearly so), creating a weak point to flank both USSR and UK with land forces, plus any naval forces skirting SEA and heading for Africa…
Are you noticing a pattern here? Japan is my best nation. Many of my Germany strategies are simply to support Japan. So while UK and USSR were building up to blow up the German Med Navy and strafe at G forces in Eastern, Japan is grabbing IPC’s and staging a fleet in the Indian ocean; one backed up by heavy navy (that I did not squander at Hawaii) to protect it from UK airforces in Asia.
How does that figure in to the equation?
Japan doesn’t matter if Germany loses both EE and WE in rd 3.
Again, I’ll gladly sacrifice 3 UK ftrs (or US planes) for 3 German trans (if they bought 1-2)
Tactical Retreat (in the East)
R1 fortify Yak (7 inf) and Kar (19, 3, 2)
UK1 - Move Ind and Egy troops to Per. (4 inf, 1 arm) planes to Cauc
US1 - ftrs to UK sz, bom to Cauc (or Kar/UK/Mos)
Round 2 - Germany’s fleet is toast. They have no move left - either UK or US will take them out.
Now UK can hold its forces in Per, or move to Ind, or move to Cauc.
US and R can retreat to Novo
US/UK land in Afr (or wait)
Round 3
Russia Strafe EE (or take)
UK/US go to Afr (or WE)
Japan will be no where near Moscow or even have the ability to take Novo.
Also Russia (if strafing EE) can retreat from Novo to Mos and with a placement of 6 inf on Moscow, Japan will be looking at a counter of 13 inf, 7 arm, 2 ftrs by Russia. Meaning Japan is going to need like 15 inf to hold.
They simply can’t get that many troops to Novo in rd 3 or 4 (with no bid).
Japan isn’t scary if Germany has no ships and has lost EE (or getting pummeled there) and can’t hold WE (or is getting booted out of Afr).
In RR
Germany would be much better off buying all inf (no ships) and simply waiting till rd 4 or so for Japan to get going strong as you suggest.
Because you don’t need lots of troops to dance around Afr. You just enough to take Egy. Once you do that 1 tank and 1-2 inf are all you need to blitz around which can be accomplished by your original tran.
What I like doing in RR is killing the UK/Rus fleet in UK sz and killing the UK Med BB as well. Then using the Baltic tran to transport some troops from Fin to Afr. It depends but I like getting the Arm out of Fin but I will do 2 inf sometimes as well.
Then with 2 inf from SE you have a pretty solid Afr force. If you’re willing to sacrifice an extra plane you can still have your BB and tran in Central Med with your other tran off the coast of Sp. You’ll still lose your ships on UK/US2 but you get the extra 2 inf (or arm) from Fin.
