I wasn’t saying that your idea was bad.
But yes, that makes sense.
Convoy Disruption: 1941, 1942.2 & G40 Submarine economic warfare
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After a few test, I would say 3 IPCs token per SZs is fairly balanced for both AA50 and 1942.2.
Probably G40 economy is better with 4 IPCs Convoy SZ.
The issue is how you roll damage with Subs.
For instance, 1, 2 means 1 IPC, 3 & 4 means 2 IPCs, 5 & 6 means 3 IPCs.
OR 1, 2 , 3 worth 1, 2 or 3 while 4, 5, 6 means 3 IPCs also. The SZ has been maxed out.
OR, 1, 2, 3 worth 1, 2 or 3 IPCs, 4, 5, 6 means zero IPC.
Or, damage is 1 IPC + d6 roll: 3, 4, 5, 6 meaning plus zero for 1 IPC damage, 1 roll meaning 2 and 2 roll for 3 IPCs damage.To what extent do you want auto damage from Sub convoy raiding?
I don’t have definite answer on that matter.
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On 42 map I would move the UK and US convoy tokens from sz”s 10 and 11 to 9 and 12.
The Wolf Packs went more south once they started to get attacked.
Move the Ger Baltic convoy to sz 6 for iron shipments.
Make it a mandatory 3 icps dam and 4 for g40.
As you mentioned why would I risk a sub for 1 dam on a dice chance roll.
Or 1-2 = 3 dam. 3-4 =‘4 dam. 5-6 = 5 dam
If you want more risk reward. Problem with all games is there’s really no battle of the Atlantic going on.
Part of problem also is not enough sz where the Wolf Packs can raid and be sometimes safe for a turn. I do know the convoys in g40 should have a bit more convoys and not on all coasts when routes where in open water crossings.
From all the games I’ve seen and played I think this is the best way to do it with convoy boxes.
In the pic you can do 3 dam inside box and 1 dam outside box if touching from a different sz each.
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I was thinking about this topis the last two days… I concluded that in keeping with the framework of KISS of which the game has a setting for; that the following would not terribly imbalance the 1942.2 game:
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Establish fixed sea zones where a faction can perform Economic disruption. Procedure: each sub or surface warship ( not transport) that didn’t have any combat rolls one D6 result means 1-2=1 IPC lost, 2-3=2 IPC lost, 5-6= 3 IPC lost …and the owner of convoy box loses up to a maximum of 4 IPC each Box.
Germany gets one box in Baltic ( Sweden/norway iron and pig iron)
UK gets five boxes ( 3 in atlantic, 1 Pacific, 1 Indian ocean)
US gets three ( Gulf of Mexico, Panama ( pacific side), Eastern seaboard)
Japan gets Three ( the slot, One off Manchukou, one by money islands
In addition Russia has two representing lend lease (below Persia, and near white sea) -
Lend Lease: each turn USA can lend up to 8 ipc to USSR that can only build: Artillery, Tanks, Planes
You can save this but only build those listed units. -
Wolf Packs: 2 more more subs in a convoy box get one extra dice
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here are some convoy boxes for placement:
https://www.mediafire.com/file/hxduhtf1yxuwiy9/Convoy_boxes_1942.2.ai/file
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I have a question. How many times have you seen the Baltic convoy box being raided?
I’ve never seen it. Just think it should be next to Norway. That’s where iron was shipped in non winter. Otherwise put one there and give Ger 2 convoys. -
I don’t see the Allies coming into the Baltic, except for a Soviet sub. Germany really had no global trading partners except for Sweden. A box off Norway might work, not 2 boxes BTW
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Then remove the Baltic convoy.
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@Imperious-Leader
On Baltic convoys in 1942.2 or AA50, instead of Norway Sz, it is about giving a real opportunity for Germany to defend it against USSR Sub or other Allies built in Atlantic.The scale and pace of this game cannot give room for a working weak spot so far from Germany’s influence in Norway SZ, even if this only 1 SZ away from Baltic. Trying to protect this SZ outside is a waste of money or units. So, it remains almost a deprivation of Germany’s IPCs with no way to win the upper hand.
In Baltic, when Germany abandon ship building, then it still becomes an Allied Sub raiding zone.
Just a bit later.So, it is the compromising between play balance and historical accuracy.
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@baron-Münchhausen @CWO-Marc @Black_Elk @Imperious-Leader @SS-GEN @Narvik
Thanks for a great thread with so many good ideas! Love to hear if you ever got to playtest them.
I think a major problem with the subs in all A&A games is that they don’t last very long and therefore Germany never wants to spend the money on them. In reality they had over 200 subs and remained a threat all the way into 1943.
So proposals to modify based on your approach.
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Convoy box markers are placed between two sea zones and counts as an extra sea zone. Its worth is 2 IPCs extra and form a chain to the capital. Example the Canadian chain is 2 Convoy boxes and connects West and East Canada with UK. If the designated source of the Convoy chain is reduced below the IPC value the bonus for the Convoy box is also reduced starting with box furthest from the capital. For example when UKs African territories are reduced below 6 IPCs the convoy closest to South Africa is reduced in value. See list below based on 1942.2.
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Any sea unit except transports that enter an enemy convoy zone and ends its movement there with no enemy sea units present disrupts it, flipping it to show it gives no IPCs and requiring 1 IPC to repair. Only destroyers, carriers and fighters starting on carriers may fire at subs in Convoy boxes, and subs only fire at destroyers and carriers in Convoy boxes. Thus if no enemy destroyers or carriers are in the Convoy box, the Convoy is disrupted without combat.
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Subs have the following advantages: when moving to a Convoy box they get 1 extra move. They may also when moving to a Convoy box move through enemy sea zones containing destroyers but each destroyer then get a shot of ‘1’ in one cycle of combat only with no fire from the subs. When defending or attacking in a Convoy box or in sea zone bordering a friendly IC subs may submerge after one cycle of combat even if enemy destroyers are present.
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Russia’s Convoy boxes only come into play if UK and/or US pay from their IPCs and place a maximum of 2 IPCs (UK and US combined) in each of the Murmansk and Vladivostok Convoy boxes during their Purchase and repair phase. The IPCs must then be underway one Russia turn before being available at the start of the next Russia turn. Since UK and US play after Russia the first available Convoy bonus is Russia turn 3. US and/or UK may also pay to repair Russia Convoys.
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Constructed ICs (not at-start ICs) that have their Convoy chain disrupted may not produce units. In normal play this will affect Japan making Convoy chains more important to them.
List of Convoy chains:
Murmansk Chain (Russia) 1 Convoy box, sz3/4.
Vladivostok Chain (Russia) 1 Convoy box, sz63/64.Narvik Chain (Germany, Norway, Finland) 1 Convoy box, sz6/5.
Tripoli Chain (Germany, Africa) 1 Convoy box, sz14/15.Canadian Chain (UK, Canada) 2 Convoy boxes sz10/2, sz2/7.
Africa Chain (UK, Africa) 3 Convoy boxes, sz9/8, sz9/13, sz13/23.
Indian Ocean Chain (UK, Transjordan, India, Burma, Australia, New Zealand) 3 Convoy boxes, sz34/35, sz35/37, sz 37/38.Manchuria Chain (Japan, Manchuria) 1 Convoy box, sz62/60.
Formosa Chain (Japan, French Indochina Thailand, Kiangsu, Kwangtung, Malaya) 2 Convoy boxes, sz36/61, sz 61/60.
Java Chain (Japan, Phillippines, New Guinea, Borneo, East Indies) 2 Convoy boxes, sz37/47, sz47/48.Pacific Chain (USA, Hawaiian Islands, Mexico) 2 Convoy boxes, sz55/56, sz53/56.
Caribbean Chain (USA, Brazil) 2 Convoy boxes, sz22/18, sz18/11.Total Allies 12 Convoy boxes 24 IPCs (excluding Russia)
Total Axis 7 Convoy boxes 14 IPCsThe sub special abilities are designed to make them survive longer if they are used for Convoy disruption. Maybe even a viable buy for Germany. You would mainly buy them for this purpose although still useful in a normal naval combat. Thoughts?
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@baron-Münchhausen said in Convoy Disruption for 1942.2 & G40 Submarine economic warfare:
It is a punitive mechanics, as OOB G40 instead of a bonus mechanics develop previously on this actual thread.
It is yet to be play-test to see if this can be balanced somehow.This new sequence with modified SZs is inspired by the quoted post.
Now, I can provide a revised for Redesigned National Convoy Disruption House rule for 1942.2.
First thing, the Convoy SZ is to be identify with Power’s Convoy Marker on map.
All Convoy SZs worth 3 IPCs and are bordering at least 1 TT or have an island group in it. These TTs can worth 0 IPC to many IPCs, this doesn’t change the 3 IPCs Convoy SZ basis.Here is 1942.2 modified map (for more action into Pacific Theatre) Convoy SZs I would implement (some such as SZs 2, 3, 34, 45, 53, 57 can be considered as Allied lend-lease shipping SZs coming from either UK or US toward Russia or Australia) :
Soviet Union 25 IPCs
3 SZs x 3 IPCs = 9 IPCs max.
SZ 4 (Karelia and Archangel)
SZ 34 (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Persia),
SZ 63 (Soviet Far East)United Kingdom 40 IPCs
10-12 SZs x 3 IPCs = 30-36 IPCs max.
SZ 2 (Greenland)
SZs 3 (Iceland), 7 (Northern UK), 8 (Southern UK),
SZs 10 (Eastern Canada), 13 (Gibraltar), 23 (West Africa),
35 (India), 40 (New Zealand), 45 (North Eastern Australia)
If captured by Allies: 37 (East Indies), 44 (Solomon Islands).United States 50 IPCs
9 SZs x 3 IPCs = 27 IPCs max.
SZs 2 (Greenland), 11 (US East Coast), 18 (Caribbean), 22 (Brazil),
SZs 53 (Hawaii), 55 (Mexico West Coast), 56 (US West Coast),
SZs 57 (Midway), 65 (Alaska/Western Canada)Germany 45 IPCs
2 SZs x 3 IPCs = 6 IPCs max.
SZ 5 (Baltic)
SZ 15 (Italy)Japan 35 IPCs
6 SZs x 3 IPCs = 18 IPCs max.
SZs 36 (Malaya), 47 (Borneo),
SZs 48 (Philippines), 60 (Japan), 61 (Costal China), 62 (Korea)An important thing to note :
lf at least 1 territory bordering (or the Island group within) the Convoy SZ is taken from his original owner and the Convoy SZ belong to the same owner, then this Convoy SZ is deactivated and can no longer be raided by enemy’s of the original Convoy SZ owner’s which have his control marker in this Convoy SZ.When such Convoy SZ is deactivated, simply place a Nation Control Marker from enemy power onto it.
Only Submarine can raid Convoy SZ.
During Phase 1 of a Power’s turn, renamed : Convoy disruption and damage repair on IC and 2 hits units.
Each enemy’s Submarine present in a Convoy SZ of the Power’s turn makes a Convoy raid (Convoy Disruption).
Even if there is warships (including Destroyers) in Convoy SZ, Submarine can still make such raid. Once the raid is done, Submarines stay in raided SZ.Each Submarine can make up to 3 IPCs damage, by rolling 1D6 divided by 2: 1-2 = 1, 3-4 = 2, 5-6 IPCs = 3 IPC damage.
So a single Sub always does at least 2 IPCs damage on average.There is no defense roll and Destroyer cannot do anything about it.
It is up to the Convoy SZ owner’s to send Destroyers (and more) during his turn to retaliate and sink Subs in combat phase.Damage are immediately remove from Convoy owner’s hands, never more than 3 IPCs per SZ.
*Exception: when there is two Convoy markers (Greenland SZ 2).
Such a raid is still up to 3 IPCs per Power’s turn, but can reach up to 6 IPCs, when UK’s and US’s damage are summed up. *Below, you get the picture of a modified 1942.2 map marked with these SZs.
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I have playtested my National Convoy House rule and Convoy SZs for 1941, so only Submarine can do convoy damage.
It works in a way that it increase possible losses for Allies vs Axis but the counter will be 0.5 IPC bonus per undamaged NCM for Allies while giving 1 IPC bonus for Axis, which I believe favors two Allied powers (UK and USA) over 1 Axis power (Japan).
I use Convoy rules to reduce UK and US economy, so purchasing become tough on pocket due to IPCs shortage. I have hope this can balance things out to play an interesting 1941 game.
Russia have 2 Convoy SZ**, so its economy can suffer from raid and get a little bonus.
National Convoy Disruption for 1941 Submarine economic warfare
First thing, each Convoy SZ is to be identify with owner’s Control Marker.All Convoy SZs worth 2 IPCs and are bordering at least 1 TT or have one island group or more islands in it.
These TTs can worth 0 IPC to many IPCs, this doesn’t change the 2 IPCs Convoy SZ basis for 1941.
Here is all 1941 Convoy SZs I would implement (some such as SZs 2, 3, 28, 37, 40, 43 can be considered as Allied lend-lease shipping SZs coming from either UK or US toward Russia or Australia) :
Soviet Union 7 IPCs starting income.
2 C-SZs x 2 IPCs = 4 IPCs max.
SZ 4 (Karelia & Archangel), deactivated if both captured,
SZ 28 (Middle East), deactivated if captured.
Bonus: 2x 0.5 = up to 1 IPCUnited Kingdom 12 IPCs
6 C-SZs x 2 IPCs = 12 IPCs max.
SZs 3 (Iceland), 10 (Eastern Canada),
14 (Gibraltar UK), 27 (Union of South Africa / French Madagascar),
30 (East Indies), 37 (Solomons).
Bonus: 6x 0.5 = up to 3 IPCsUnited States 17 IPCs
7 C-SZs x 2 IPCs = 14 IPCs max.
SZs 2 (Greenland), 11 (US East Coast),
12 (Caribbean), 22 (Brazil),
SZs 40 (Hawaii), 43 (Midway), 48 (Alaska).
Bonus: 7x 0.5 = up to 3 IPCsGermany 12 IPCs
2 C-SZ x 2 IPCs = 4 IPCs max.
SZ 5 (Norway-Finland: Baltic Sea)
SZ 17* (Anglo-Egypt Sudan)
Bonus: 2x 1.0 = up to 2 IPCsJapan 9 IPCs
5 C-SZs x 2 IPCs = 10 IPCs max.
SZ 31 (Southeast Asia),
SZs 32* (Borneo), 38* (Philippines),
SZs 45 (Manchuria), 46 (Coastal China).
*Deactivated on set-up.
Bonus: 5x 1.0 = up to 5 IPCsThe most important thing to note :
lf at least 1 territory bordering (or Island or an Island group within) the Convoy SZ is taken from his original owner and the Convoy SZ belong to the same owner, then this Convoy SZ is deactivated and can no longer be raided by enemy’s of the original Convoy SZ owner’s which have his control marker in this Convoy SZ. But can no more gives bonus either.When such Convoy SZ is deactivated, simply flip this Nation Control Marker face downward.
Only Submarine can raid Convoy SZ.
During Phase 3: Conduct Combat
Combat Sequence
1. Strategic and tactical bombing raids AND/OR Convoy DisruptionEach Submarine can either make a regular attack (Step 3. General combat) or a Convoy raid (Step 1. S&TBR AND/OR Convoy Disruption).
Even if there is warships (excluding DD) in Convoy SZ, Submarine can still make such raid.Once the raid is done, Submarine cannot retreat and must stay in last raided C-SZ.
Each 6 IPCs Submarine can do 0 to 2 IPC damage, by rolling 1D6: 1-2 = 1 IPC / 3-4= 2 IPCs / 5-6 = 0 damage.
So a single Submarine may do from 0 IPC damage to 6 IPCs in a single raid, depending on how many SZ raided, up to 3 Convoy SZ.There is no defense roll.
Destroyer presence protect a SZ from raiding.Damage are immediately remove from Convoy owner’s hands, never more than 2 IPCs per SZ for the whole game round.
And attacker must put chips under SZ owner’s Control Marker (1 chip per IPC damage) as a reminder for the game round of how many IPCs were raided if multiple raids occur from more than one alliance powers.
These chips under owner’s National Control Marker will be removed at no cost from the Convoy SZ during raided SZ’s owner
6. Collect income phase while counting damaged C-SZ to give Convoy bonus IPC.
1941 Cost structure:
Sub 6, DD 8, Carrier 12, BB 16.Unit type
Cost Combat values
Special abilitiesSUBMARINE
6 IPCs A2 D1 M2
Cannot hit Submarine or Aircraft
Submerge and Stealth Move
Combat OR Convoy raidingConvoy raiding: up to 3 rolls, max.
On Station: 3 rolls in same Convoy SZ
Active raiding:
1 roll in starting C-SZ,
1 roll in other C-SZ moving through, if any.
Can roll once or twice in ending Convoy SZ.
Max 3 rolls total.
Results per D6 roll:
1-2 : 1 IPC lost
3-4 : 2 IPCs lost
5-6: 0 IPC lost.
Once movement is done, roll according to C-SZ along the Submarine path.DESTROYER
8 IPCs A2 D2 M2
Cannot block Sub’s Submerge
Block Stealth move and Convoy raid in actual SZ
Depth charge @2 once on submerging Subs. -
Sweet ! haven’t read it yet but i will. Just wanted to say you and @Black_Elk online at same time lol Awesome !
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