Convoy Disruption: 1941, 1942.2 & G40 Submarine economic warfare

@Black_Elk:

That last post is particularly awesome and makes a very strong case for an Atlantic convoy system in A&A!

As for the methods suggested, I gravitate towards the simplest workable method, at least for a game like 1942.2. My concern with the more involved methods, is that would be a bit too rules intensive for most people in my playgroup. I totally appreciate the desire to have a system that balances for units other than subs, I just worry that it would be tough to teach.

In this case my preference would be for something like Marc suggested, where the more expansive methods build on the baseline method. For example, where method 2 or 3 build on method 1, rather than replacing it. If that makes sense. As always excellent analyses Baron!

I thought about all this and I believe it is mandatory to come forward with something a little more valuable to have more incentive to risk costly warships into ocean for so minor objective, such as a few NCMs and IPCs from Convoy Disruption.

METHOD #3, is boosted but still simpler than Method #1 with either option 1 or 2:

METHOD #3
(All warships and planes can be involved. Convoy can be disrupted after Naval Combat.)

Any 1 Submarine or Battleship disrupting a Convoy Zone: auto destroy of 2 NCMs 2 IPCs per Convoy SZ.*
To disrupt a Convoy SZ, Submarine or Battleship can do it from
A) a starting Convoy SZ or
B) moving through a Convoy SZ or
C) ending a Combat Move in a Convoy SZ.

For example, a given Submarine could be able to disrupt up to 6 NCMs in a single Combat Move, if for example SZ 1, SZ 2 and SZ3 were enemy’s Convoy SZ (with 3 NCMs in each Convoy SZ) and the Submarine was starting from SZ3 to SZ1 via SZ2, then up to 2 NCMs per SZ would be flip face down.

OPTION 1: Any other kind of warships can raid 1 NCM by starting from, passing through or ending into an unguarded Convoy SZ.
So, each Destroyer, Cruiser or Carrier can flip face down up to 3 NCMs from three different Convoy SZs.

OPTION 2: Any bomber (StB or TcB) can raid a single 1 NCM by attacking an unguarded Convoy SZ.
In the last option, only 1 specific Convoy SZ can be targeted by one single bomber.
Many bombers can target different Convoy SZs or the same SZ to disrupt additional NCMs in the SZ as well.

When there are warships defending the Convoy SZ, a regular battle is resolve.
Each attacking surviving Submarine (or Battleship) can apply damage to 2 Convoy NCMs (as if there was no previous naval combat).
OPTION 1: Any other kind of warships can raid 1 NCM each.
OPTION 2: Each surviving bomber (TcB or StB) can raid 1 NCM in this Convoy SZ.

@Argothair:

My personal design philosophy is that when you scale back the map, you also have to scale back the complexity of the rules and features. That doesn’t mean you can’t have convoys, airbases, etc., but it might mean that you have to find a way to make them smaller or less intrusive.

For example, having dozens of convoy zones makes sense in G40, because even the smaller factions start out with dozens of IPCs per turn – even if you lose, e.g., 4 IPCs to submarine raids, that’s still only about 10% of your economy. In 1942.2, though, the same submarines could wind up doing a lot more damage – submarines in the western and central Mediterranean alone could wipe out 14 German IPCs, i.e., roughly 30% of the German economy. To fix that, I’d recommend having about two designated ‘convoy zones’ for each nation – if there’s one or more enemy submarines in the convoy zone during your collect income phase, then nothing happens, and if there are no enemy submarines in the convoy zone, you collect, e.g., 2 IPCs per convoy zone. That keeps the rules simpler and prevents the submarine warfare from taking up too much of people’s time and attention.

Another interesting idea to think about for finding the best Convoy Disruption mechanics.
Perhaps, this kind of mechanics should be use for 1941 and 1942.2 while a more complex one for G40?

A slightly different and less unbalancing than the above (but a little more complex move).

@Black_Elk:

That last post is particularly awesome and makes a very strong case for an Atlantic convoy system in A&A!

As for the methods suggested, I gravitate towards the simplest workable method, at least for a game like 1942.2. My concern with the more involved methods, is that would be a bit too rules intensive for most people in my playgroup. I totally appreciate the desire to have a system that balances for units other than subs, I just worry that it would be tough to teach.

In this case my preference would be for something like Marc suggested, where the more expansive methods build on the baseline method. For example, where method 2 or 3 build on method 1, rather than replacing it. If that makes sense. As always excellent analyses Baron!

Still mandatory to come forward with something a little more valuable to get a better incentive to risk costly warships into ocean for so minor objective, such as a few NCMs and IPCs from Convoy Disruption. I reduced somehow the possible damage of this Convoy Disruption mechanic.

This modified METHOD #3, is boosted but still simpler than Method #1 with either option 1 or 2:

METHOD #3 restricted to 2 SZs
(All warships and planes can be involved. Convoy can be disrupted after Naval Combat.)

Any 1 Submarine or Battleship disrupting a Convoy Zone: auto destroy of 2 NCMs 2 IPCs per Convoy SZ.*
Only 2 SZs can be disrupted and up to 4 NCMs can be flipped face down per Submarine or Battleship.
To disrupt a Convoy SZ, Submarine or Battleship can do it from
A) a starting Convoy SZ or
B) moving through a Convoy SZ or
C) ending a Combat Move in a Convoy SZ.

For example, a given Submarine could be able to disrupt up to 4 NCMs in a single Combat Move, if for example SZ1, SZ2 and SZ3 were enemy’s Convoy SZs (with 3 NCMs in each Convoy SZ) and the Submarine was starting from SZ3 to SZ1 via SZ2, then up to 2 NCMs per each SZ would be flip face down.
BUT, you would have to choose which SZs is disrupted and which one is not.
This would give 3 combinations of disrupted convoy in 2 SZs (for instance: SZ1 & SZ2 but not SZ3 / SZ1 & SZ3 but not SZ2 / SZ2 & SZ3 but not SZ1).

OPTION 1: Any other kind of warships can raid 1 NCM by starting from, passing through or ending into an unguarded Convoy SZ.
So, each Destroyer, Cruiser or Carrier can flip face down up to 2 NCMs from three different Convoy SZs.

OPTION 2: Any bomber (StB or TcB) can raid a single 1 NCM by attacking an unguarded Convoy SZ.
In this option, only 1 specific Convoy SZ can be targeted by one single bomber.
Flying over a SZ doesn’t allow to Disrupt Convoy in it.
Many bombers can target different Convoy SZs or the same SZ to disrupt additional NCMs in the SZ as well.

When there are warships defending the Convoy SZ, a regular battle is resolve.
Each attacking surviving Submarine (or Battleship) can apply damage to 2 Convoy NCMs (as if there was no previous naval combat).
OPTION 1: Any other kind of warships can raid 1 NCM each.
OPTION 2: Each surviving bomber (TcB or StB) can raid 1 NCM in this Convoy SZ.

Usual OOB movement restriction apply, such as Destroyer blocking Submarines.
So, by blocking a Sub in a given SZ, a DD will prevent any other Convoy Disruption in any further away Convoy SZ.

This post was first introduced in Black_Elk thread.
It provides a different workable way of doing SBR for either 1942.2 and AA50.
It is a punitive mechanics, as OOB G40 instead of a bonus mechanics develop previously on this actual thread.

It is yet to be play-test to see if this can be balanced somehow.

It is also provided so anyone can more specifically post comment on this Convoy Disruption mechanics.

There is still a lot of issues to be able to translate this mechanic and principles into G40.
Any help is welcome.

@Baron:

**@Baron:

@Baron:

@regularkid:

Baron, how bout this for a simplified (closer to OOB) approach, that puts convoy raids on the attackers turn:

1. Warships and Subs may conduct convoy raids against any income producing territory bordering a convoy zone. This works similar to a shore bombardment, with each participating ship simply targeting a specific territory (No need for a rough division of damage between allied powers bordering the same sz. The attacker simply chooses each ships target).
**2. Surface ships can only make a raid in an empty convoy zone (if enemy ships are present, a naval battle results. No raid). Submarines can raid any convoy zone, unless enemy destroyer is present (if enemy destroyer is present, a naval battle results. No raid).

3. Convoy raid damage is determined using the OOB method, with each raid inflicting up to the value of the targeted territory.** The total amount of damage is immediately removed from the targeted player’s treasury.

4. Each convoy zone can only be raided once per round, per side.

Sound good?

At first glance it seems effectively a working alternative to Convoy Disruption nearer OOB mechanic.

#1doesn’t seem necessary. Once the damage are rolled, you apply the damage accordingly and let the owners split as they wish. The same way casualty are determined by multiple defenders.
The damage cap would be the sum of all enemy’s adjacent TTs to Convoy SZ.

It would be easier to implement into Triple A.

What do you do about Fighter rolling 2D6, keeping 1-3 as damage?
I’m OK with TcB.
Any idea about Strategic bombers?
In OOB Convoy system, every 1D6 roll gives an avg of 1 IPC, 2D6 gives 2 IPCs.
But getting no damage is possible, and there is no risk to the attacker.

What about letting StB rolling 1D6 and keeping 1-3 as damage?
1 IPC avg is much lower than 2.583 IPCs (or 2.916) avg on SBR.

Even if I try to develop a Convoy system similar to SBR, I believe that to increase action in ATO, there should be minimal danger against raider during his Convoy raiding phase.

So the OOB method: 1-3 = 1-3 damage 4-6 = 0 damage
DD, CA, BB roll 1 D6, CV have no dice, TcBs and Fgs get 2D6 along with Subs,
is my prefered choice. It imply no risk but there is 50% on 1 dice to totally miss.
That’s fine for me. Combat units must fight Subs to get ride of them.
Changing this phase into attacker’s turn makes it more efficient.
The more units are able to survive somehow from combat or raid, the more intense would be this theatre of operation. There will be plenty of units in many SZs.
That is why I prefer OOB raid, TP being able to escape on 2nd round, DD blocking 1:1 Sub, and only for one round, Sub cannot hit or be hit by submarine, etc.

Also, I’m actually working on developing Convoy SZs for 1942.2, so only Sub can do convoy damage in a way that it increase the losses for Allies vs Axis but the counter will be 5-6-8-9-12-15 cost structure, which I believe favors 2 Allied powers over 1 Axis power (Japan).

I will use Convoy rules to reduce UK and US economy, so buying cheaper warships would still be a burden due to IPCs shortage. I have hope this can balance things out.

Since the cost structure affect warships only, Russia have no Convoy SZ, so its economy cannot suffer from raid.

Now, I can provide a complete and still simple National Convoy Disruption House rule for 1942.2. IDK if this mechanic can also works with G40.

First thing, the Convoy SZ is to be identify with owner’s Control Marker.
All Convoy SZs worth 4 IPCs and are bordering at least 1 TT or have an island group in it.
These TTs can worth 0 IPC to many IPCs, this doesn’t change the 4 IPCs Convoy SZ basis.

Here is all 1942.2 Convoy SZs I would implement (some such as SZs 2, 3, 45, 53, 57 can be considered as Allied lend-lease shipping SZs coming from either UK or US toward Russia or Australia) :

United Kingdom 31 IPCs
8 SZs x 4 IPCs = 32 IPCs max.
SZs 3 (Iceland), 7 (Northern UK), 8 (Southern UK),
SZs 10 (Eastern Canada), 23 (West Africa),
SZs 34 (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Persia), 35 (India), 45 (North Eastern Australia)

United States 42 IPCs
9 SZs x 4 IPCs = 36 IPCs max.
SZs 2 (Greenland), 11 (US East Coast), 18 (Caribbean), 22 (Brazil),
SZs 53 (Hawaii), 55 (Mexico West Coast), 56 (US West Coast),
SZs 57 (Midway), 65 (Alaska/Western Canada)

Germany 41 IPCs
2 SZs x 4 IPCs = 8 IPCs max.
SZ 5 (Baltic)
SZ 15 (Italy)

Japan 30 IPCs
7 SZs x 4 IPCs = 28 IPCs max.
SZs 36 (Malaya), 37 (East Indies), 47 (Borneo),
SZs 48 (Philippines), 60 (Japan), 61 (Costal China), 62 (Korea)

The most important thing to note :
lf at least 1 territory bordering (or the Island group within) the Convoy SZ is taken from his original owner and the Convoy SZ belong to the same owner, then this Convoy SZ is deactivated and can no longer be raided by enemy’s of the original Convoy SZ owner’s which have his control marker in this Convoy SZ.

When such Convoy SZ is deactivated, simply flip this Nation Control Marker face downward.

Only Submarine can raid Convoy SZ.

During Phase 3: Conduct Combat
Combat Sequence
1. Strategic and tactical bombing raids AND/OR Convoy Disruption

Each Submarine can either make a regular attack (Step 3. General combat) or a Convoy raid (Step 1. S&TBR AND/OR Convoy Disruption).
Even if there is warships (including DD) in Convoy SZ, Submarine can still make such raid.

Once the raid is done, Submarine cannot retreat and must stay in raided SZ.

Each 5 IPCs Submarine can make 1 IPC + 1 to 3 IPCs damage, by rolling 1D6: 1-3 = 1-3 IPCs / 4-6 = 0 damage.
So a single Sub always does at least 1 IPC damage (50% of the time, and more the other 50%).

There is no defense roll and Destroyer cannot do anything about it.
It is up to the Convoy SZ owner’s to send Destroyers (and more) on his turn to sink Subs.

These damage and odds are for:
5 IPCs Sub A2 first strike, D1 M2, damage: 1D6 (1-3= 1-3 / 4-6 = 0) +1 IPCs.
6 IPCs Destroyer A2 D2 M2, cancel 1:1 Sub Submerge and Stealth Move but not first strike.

If you want to play with OOB Sub and DD, then damage per Sub must be 2 IPCs + 1-3 IPCs.

The odds must be different because Submarine commander must see some benefits to not attack warships.
The odds for 5 IPCs Sub is 2/6 x 6 IPCs for DD = 2 IPCs damage on average.
1 IPC + 1-3 IPCs gives the same 2 IPCs average.

The odds for OOB 6 IPCs Sub are 2/6 x 8 IPCs DD = 2 2/3 IPCs
2 IPCs + 1-3 IPCs gives 3 IPCs average but the cap is 4, which gives 2 5/6 IPCs.
This is pretty close, and OOB Subs are lame ducks on defense vs DDs.

Damage are immediately remove from Convoy owner’s hands, never more than 4 IPCs per SZ for the whole game round.

And attacker must put chips under owner’s National Control Marker (1 chip per IPC damage) as a reminder for the game round of how many IPCs were raided if multiple raids occur from more than one alliance powers.

These chips will be removed from under National Control Marker in SZ during Convoy SZ’s owner 1. Purchase and Repair Units. Step 2: Pay for Units and Repair Damaged Units
and Facilities.

---

National Convoy Disruption House rule for AA50 1941 set up.
Here is all AA50 Convoy SZs, 1941 set-up I would implement (some such as SZs 2, 3, 46, 53, 57 can be considered as Allied lend-lease shipping SZs coming from either UK or US toward Russia or Australia) :

United Kingdom 43 IPCs
8 SZs x 4 IPCs = 32 IPCs max.
SZs 3 (North East of UK), 8 (Southern UK), 9 (Eastern Canada), 17 (French West Africa),
SZs 34 (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Persia), 35 (India), 38 (East Indies), 46 (Solomon Islands)

United States 40 IPCs
9 SZs x 4 IPCs = 36 IPCs max.
SZs 2 (Greenland / Northern UK), 10 (US East Coast), 18 (Brazil), 19 (Caribbean),
SZs 53 (Hawaii), 55 (Mexico West Coast), 56 (US West Coast),
SZs 57 (Midway), 65 (Alaska/Western Canada)

Germany 31 IPCs
1 SZ x 4 IPCs = 4 IPCs max.
SZ 5 (Baltic)

Italy 10 IPCs
1 SZ x 4 IPCs = 4 IPCs max.
SZ 14 (Italy)

Japan 17 IPCs
6 SZs x 4 IPCs = 24 IPCs max.
SZ 36 (South Malaya), SZ 37 (French Indo-China),
SZ 49* (Borneo), SZ 50* (Philippines),
SZ 61 (Coastal China), SZ 62 (Japan)
Deactivated on set-up.*

Another possibility to increase realism in AA50 or 1942.2:

Battleship can also raid Convoy SZ.

Each Battleship can make a Convoy raid if there is no surface warship in the Convoy SZ.
Once the raid is done, Battleship cannot retreat and must stay in raided SZ.

Under SS 5-DD 6-TP 8-CA 9-CV 12-BB 15 cost structure:

Each 15 IPCs Battleship can make 1 IPC + 1 to 3 IPCs damage, by rolling 1D6: 1-4 = 1-3 IPCs / 5-6 = 0 damage. Still caping at 4 IPCs per Convoy SZ.
So, 1= 2, 2= 3, 3= 4, 4= 4, 5= 1, 6= 1. Average damage: 15/6 = 2.5 IPCs.
Damage roll is based on BB attack value @4.

This damage roll could be apply to an OOB 20 IPCs Battleship too.

A simpler one can be :
Each 15 IPCs Battleship can make 1 to 4 IPCs damage, by rolling 1D6: 1-4 = 1-4 IPCs / 5-6 = 0 damage. Still caping at 4 IPCs per Convoy SZ.
So, 1= 1, 2= 2, 3= 3, 4= 4, 5= 0, 6= 0. Average damage: 10/6 = 1.67 IPCs.

Damage roll is only based on Battleship attack value @4.

For Global 1940 alternate Convoy Disruption House Rule.

@Baron:

@Black_Elk:

Yes I think that does a pretty good job of sumarizing my misgivings, and contrast with the OOB situation. Also important to me is the ability to create one system that could work on all game boards.
Frankly I don’t like either system, because I think the economic disruption should be a feature of the submarine unit specifically (not all warships) and that this should be a form of “attack” made during the raiding player’s own “conduct combat phase,” not during the opponent’s collect income phase!
My argument there would be for simplicity and for gameplay i.e. as a way to make the submarine different from other naval attack units, and give it a more independent “hunting role.” I say the argument is “for the gameplay” because I’m aware that historically any warship could probably disrupt convoys. But what we’re looking for in a rule, is a way to separate off the role of subs and make that role unique or advantageous when compared to other naval units at a comparable cost. More advantageous than they are in normal combat, so players actually have an incentive to use them for the economic attacks instead of just normal attacks!

Otherwise the subs just default to the same way other naval combat units work e.g. grouped together with the main fleet, or the main air group. I don’t think the submarine should work like this. (I don’t think StratBs should work like this either, for that matter, even if this conversation is just for subs, I see them as related issues. I mean the way a bomber’s economic attack advantage is subordinated to its normal combat attack advantage vs ships, instead of the other way around.)

The sub unit would be far more interesting, if it’s primary role was for economic attacks, with a secondary role in normal combat. The current situation is basically the reverse. And the sub isn’t really very unique as a convoy disrupting unit. It behaves like all other ships that disrupt convoys, except that its cheaper for the spam and can’t be hit by air without a dd.

The analogy I always return to is SBR or Rocket Attacks, I think subs should work in a similar way. Either you choose to use them as a combat unit, or you forego combat for the chance at an “economic attack.” I think you should be able to run such a “sub attack” in any coastal sea zone bordering enemy territories with an ipc value, otherwise it only works on maps with a special “marker” or map designation drawn on the sz, which means it can’t work on all game boards.

A simple rule, that took into account the max value of adjacent enemy territories, and then allowed subs to “roll” against it, would be ideal. If its overpowered, then you just build in some kind of defensive roll, similar to an AAgun vs a bomber, to destroy the sub. I used to play with similar rules in AA50 (although there it was a special roll against coastal factories for my group.)

The danger of all convoy rules that allow you to “destroy” enemy IPCs directly is how they can affect the first round purchase options. Thinking about SBR as a model, when you “raid” with a bomber in the latest games, money is removed indirectly (via the purchase/repair damage system). In the old SBR rules of Classic/Revised a successful “raid” meant that your opponent had give money to the bank immediately, with no “choice” and no damage/repair. Seems to me that the G40 convoy rules follow the earlier sort of idea of Classic or Revised (where the money is given up to the bank ie. destroyed), even though I much prefer the latter sort of idea from AA50 and later, where the player got to choose how to deal with the consequences of the raid.

In other words, I don’t think players should have to learn two totally separate “economic raiding mechanics” one for bombers and one for subs. Instead the two mechanics should mirror each other and work in similar ways. If not exactly the same, than at least similar enough that I can explain one with reference to the other.

Putting the focus on coastal factories would probably be too overpowered, given how SBR already works against these factories. But if you’re not going to put the focus on coastal factories or give the defender an intermediate “repair” type option, but use the old model (money taken goes straight to the bank) then there should at least be a chance that the “raiding” unit can be destroyed during the economic attack, the same way bombers face AA fire, defender rolls at 1 to destroy the unit attempting to raid. I think that would be way easier than separating this whole “convoy” process out across multiple turns in the game round, which is what the current G40 system does.

I will assume my most preferred type of 5 IPCs Sub against 6 IPCs DD:

HR SUBMARINE A2 first strike D1 M2 C5 IPCs,
first strike even when enemy’s DD present, no first strike roll on defense (ever)
blocked by DD on 1:1 basis Stealth Move and
on 1:1 basis Sub’s Submerged for first round only.
Any plane can hit unsubmerged Submarine during combat round without any Destroyer presence.
(If a Sub submerge during first strike phase, plane can not hit Sub.)
Submarine cannot hit submarine.

Convoy Raid Damage: 1 Dice keep all 1 to 3 results AND add 1 IPC

Immediately remove IPCs from enemy’s power.
Add 1 Sub’s National Control Marker in SZ Convoy per IPC damage (as reminder).

DESTROYER A2 D2 M2 C6 IPCs,
blocks on a 1:1 basis Submarine’s Stealth Move, CM and NCM, and Submerge, first round only.

I would also delete Bordeaux Convoy SZ 105.

1. Any Convoy SZ is to be identify with owner’s Control Marker.
   All Convoy SZs worth 4 IPCs and are bordering at least 1 TT or have an island group in it.
   These TTs can worth 0 IPC to many IPCs, this doesn’t change the 4 IPCs Convoy SZ basis.

Split Convoy Sea Zone:
lf at least 1 territory bordering the Convoy SZ belong to an enemy’s Power, this Convoy SZ maximum is split in two 2 IPCs which can be both raided by the other side. So, some Convoy SZs could have two National Control Markers, one from Allied Power and one from an Axis power.

If multiple Powers from the same side share a common Convoy SZ, damages are split between these Powers, as they wish. (Same as multiples casualties in a TT or SZ.)

During Phase 3: Conduct Combat
Combat Sequence
1. Strategic and tactical bombing raids AND/OR Convoy Disruption

2. During Combat move phase, each Submarine can choose whether to make a regular combat attack (Step 3. General combat)
   OR
   to do Convoy Raid in a given Convoy SZ (Step 1. S&TBR AND/OR Convoy Disruption).
   It is only Submarine units which get this option, even if Convoy SZ is enemy controlled by warships.

Other warships and aircrafts (Destroyer, Cruiser, Carrier, Battleship) can only do such Convoy Raid if there is no enemy’s surface Warships in Convoy SZ. (Step 1. S&TBR AND/OR Convoy Disruption)

3. The Convoy Raid damage roll is determined that way: 1 roll 1D6 per Sub and keep only 1 to 3 results, and add 1 IPC to the result.
   (Odds: 2+3+4+1+1+1= 12/6 = avg 2 IPCs.)
   (@2 first strike = up to 3 damage roll)

It gives the amount of IPCs which will be lost immediately by Convoy SZ’s owner.
Never more than 4 IPCs per Convoy SZ for the whole game round.

You put one chip under appropriate Country Control Marker for each IPC damage on Convoy to keep track of the entire game round results against this Power.

Other Combat units get only 1 single dice to roll, and get Convoy damage if they get their attack number or lower:
Surface warships:
Destroyer Attack @2 Damage on 1-2. (odds: 3/6 = avg 0.5 IPC)
Cruiser Attack @3 Damage on 1-3. (odds: 6/6 = avg 1 IPC)
Battleship Attack @4 Dmage on 1-4. (odds: 10/6 = avg 1.67 IPC)
Carrier Attack @0

Aircrafts:
All empty Convoy SZs are treated the same as a Tactical Raid target.

Fighter have no attack on Convoy SZ.

Tactical Bomber (12 IPCs HouseRuled unit) takes a Tactical Bombing Raid 1D6 damage as usual but must first submit to preemptive AA defense @1.
(Odds: 1+2+3+4+5 (max:4)+6 (max:4)=18/6= avg dmg result is 3 - 2 = +1 IPC. If regular AA roll)
(Odds: 18/6x 5/6 = 15/6 = 2.5 - 2 = +0.5 IPC. If preemptive AA roll)
(OOB G40 TBR D6: +2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPC damage/TBR)

Strategic Bomber makes a Tactical Bombing Raid 1D6+2 damage as usual but must first submit to preemptive AA defense @1.
(Odds 3+4+4+4+4+4=23/6= avg 3.833 -2 = +1.833 IPCs. If regular AA roll is prefered.)
(Odds 23/6 x 5/6 = 115/36 = 3.194 -2 = +1.194 IPCs If preemptive AA roll is chosen.)
(OOB G40 SBR D6+2: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR)

(This Convoy Raid by Bombers is played as an IC’s AAA.
Many Cargo Ships were equipped with AA guns and were more able to defend themselves than against Submarines attack.)
In addition, the 4 IPCs cap in Convoy SZ makes such Tactical Bombing Raid sub-optimized compared to SBR and TBR on IC, Air Base and Naval Base, as you can compare above.

**Do you think this can be a workable balance system?

Do you see it as a sufficient incentive for Submarines Commander to prefer raiding over regular combat?**

@Baron:

I prefer TP being able to escape on 2nd round, DD blocking 1:1 Sub, and only for one round, Sub cannot hit or be hit by submarine, etc.

Also, I have adapted my 1942.2  National Convoy House rule and Convoy SZs for 1941, so only Submarine can do convoy damage in a way that it increase the losses for Allies vs Axis but the counter will be 5-6-8-9-12-15 cost structure, which I believe favors two Allied powers (UK and USA) over 1 Axis power (Japan).

I will use Convoy rules to reduce UK and US economy, so buying cheaper warships would still be tough on pocket due to IPCs shortage. I have hope this can balance things out to play an interesting 1941 game.

Since the cost structure affect warships only, Russia have no Convoy SZ, so its economy cannot suffer from raid.

National Convoy Disruption for 1941 Submarine economic warfare
First thing, each Convoy SZ is to be identify with owner’s Control Marker.

All Convoy SZs worth 2 IPCs and are bordering at least 1 TT or have one island group or more islands in it.

These TTs can worth 0 IPC to many IPCs, this doesn’t change the 2 IPCs Convoy SZ basis for 1941.

Here is all 1941 Convoy SZs I would implement (some such as SZs 2, 6, 28, 37, 40, 43 can be considered as Allied lend-lease shipping SZs coming from either UK or US toward Russia or Australia) :

United Kingdom 12 IPCs
7 SZs x 2 IPCs = 14 IPCs max.
SZs 6 (Northern UK), 8 (Southern UK), 10 (Eastern Canada),
SZs 28 (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Persia), 29 (India), 30 (East Indies), 37 (Solomons)

United States 17 IPCs
7 SZs x 2 IPCs = 14 IPCs max.
SZs 2 (Greenland), 11 (US East Coast),
12 (Caribbean), 22 (Brazil),
SZs 40 (Hawaii), 42 (US West Coast), 43 (Midway)

Germany 12 IPCs
1 SZ x 2 IPCs = 2 IPCs max.
SZ 5 (Baltic)

Japan 9 IPCs
5 SZs x 2 IPCs = 10 IPCs max.
SZ 31 (Southeast Asia),
SZs 32* (Borneo),  38* (Philippines),
SZs 45 (Japan, Manchuria), 46 (Coastal China).
*Deactivated on set-up.

The most important thing to note :
lf at least 1 territory bordering (or Island or an Island group within) the Convoy SZ is taken from his original owner and the Convoy SZ belong to the same owner, then this Convoy SZ is deactivated and can no longer be raided by enemy’s of the original Convoy SZ owner’s which have his control marker in this Convoy SZ.

When such Convoy SZ is deactivated, simply flip this Nation Control Marker face downward.

Only Submarine can raid Convoy SZ.

During Phase 3: Conduct Combat
Combat Sequence
1. Strategic and tactical bombing raids AND/OR Convoy Disruption

Each Submarine can either make a regular attack (Step 3. General combat) or a Convoy raid (Step 1. S&TBR AND/OR Convoy Disruption).
Even if there is warships (including DD) in Convoy SZ, Submarine can still make such raid.

Once the raid is done, Submarine cannot retreat and must stay in raided SZ.

Each 5 IPCs Submarine can make 1 IPC + 0 to 1 IPC damage, by rolling 1D6: 1-3 = 1 IPC / 4-6 = 0 damage.
So a single Submarine always does at least 1 IPC damage (50% of the time, and 2 IPCs the other 50%).

There is no defense roll and Destroyer cannot do anything about it.
It is up to the Convoy SZ owner’s to send Destroyers (and more) on his turn to sink Subs.

These damage and odds are for:
5 IPCs Sub A2 first strike, D1 M2, damage: 1D6 (1-3= 1 IPC / 4-6 = 0) +1 IPC.
6 IPCs Destroyer A2 D2 M2, cancel 1:1 Sub Submerge and Stealth Move but not first strike.

If you want to play with OOB Sub and DD, then damage per Sub must be 2 IPCs.

The odds must be different because Submarine commander must see some benefits to not attack warships.
The odds for 5 IPCs Sub is 2/6 x 6 IPCs for DD = 2 IPCs damage on average.
1 IPC + 0-1 IPC gives 1.5 IPCs average. (Slightly under average vs Destroyer.)

The odds for OOB 6 IPCs Sub are 2/6 x 8 IPCs DD = 2 2/3 IPCs
2 IPCs gives 2 IPCs average but the cap is 2, which gives anyhow 2 PCs.
This is under average vs OOB Destroyers, and OOB Subs are lame ducks on defense vs DDs, but damage are automatic and there is not that much units in this A&A shorter version.

Damage are immediately remove from Convoy owner’s hands, never more than 2 IPCs per SZ for the whole game round.

And attacker must put chips under SZ owner’s Control Marker (1 chip per IPC damage) as a reminder for the game round of how many IPCs were raided if multiple raids occur from more than one alliance powers.

These chips under owner’s National Control Marker will be removed at no cost from the Convoy SZ during Convoy SZ’s owner 1. Purchase and Repair Units. Step 2: Pay for Units and Repair Damaged Units and Facilities.

For reference, here is what I meant about 5-6-8-9-12-15 cost structure:

@Baron:

@Baron:

This is the reduced cost structure with near OOB cost for planes and Carrier holding 2 planes (Fgs or TcBs).
I also stick to this cost structure (5-6-9-12-15).
I put the 1 hit Transport at 8 IPCs.
I write here many ideas which still fit into core roster at this low cost.
All other ground units are as OOB, except for Tank which no longer gives attack bonus to TacB.

Unit type
Cost    Combat values
Special abilities

SUBMARINE
5 IPCs A2fs* D1 M2
Permanent A2 first strike *against all surface vessels only, including DDs.
Cannot hit Sub or Aircraft
Submerge and Stealth Move
On offense, Sub’s commander can allocate each hit whether on transports group or warships group, the owner still choose which individual unit is the casualty.

On defense, Stealth Move allows (but not compel to) each Sub 1 single roll@1 against any ships passing through the Sub’s SZ. Only each Destroyer can get a single retaliate roll @2.

DESTROYER
6 IPCs A2 D2 M2
Block Sub’s Submerge (first round only) and Stealth move, both on a 1:1 basis.

TRANSPORT
8 IPCs A0 D0 regAA1 M2, 1 hit, taken as casualty according to owner’s choice.
Carry 2 units, 1 Inf + 1 any ground unit
No defense against warships,
Beginning on the second combat round, 1 Transport can escape from Naval Battle in the same SZ at each end of combat round, if there is no enemy’s aircraft.
Simply remove TP from battle board and place it in the SZ on the map.
Regular AA @1 against up to 1 plane, whichever the lesser.
Can unload in a Sub infested SZ if escorted by surface warships.

If you bring them in with attackers - as you would for amphibious - then any defense shots in excess of what is needed to sink the accompany ships MUST be applied to any transports until all shots are accounted for or there are no units left to assign them to. (Per OOB rule.)

CRUISER
9 IPCs A3 D3 M3
Shore Bombard 3
Gives +1 move to 1 surface vessel, paired 1:1

FLEET CARRIER
12 IPCs A0 D2 M2, 2 hits,
Carry 2 planes,
damaged Carrier still carry one aircraft.

BATTLESHIP
15 IPCs A4 D4 M2, 2 hits,
Shore Bombard 4

Both repair at purchase and repair phase in a SZ adjacent to IC’s SZ, or Victory City, SZ (or Naval Base SZ, or in NB SZ).
Naval Base cannot repair more than 3 warships hits per turn.

FIGHTER
9 IPCs 10 IPCs A3 D4 M4
SBR: A2 D2, interceptors always destroy bombers first.
Optional: on a “1” or “2” roll, selects aircraft as casualty, owner’s still choose individual plane.

TACTICAL BOMBER
10 IPCs 12 IPCs A4 D3 M4
TBR: A1first strike, Damage D6 on AB or NB,
SBR: can do escort mission for StBs without bombing AB or NB.
Optional: on a “1” roll, select either aircraft as casualty, owner’s still choose individual plane,
or pick any ground unit of your choice.
on a “2” roll, pick any ground unit of your choice.

STRATEGIC BOMBER
12 IPCs No cost change A4 D1 M6
SBR: AA A1first strike up to two Fighters, whichever the lesser,
Damage on IC, AB, NB D6+2 /minimum damage 2 pts if hit by IC’s/AB or NB’s AA gun.
No damage when destroyed by intercepting Fighters.
Optional: on a “1” attack roll, select either aircraft as casualty, owner’s still choose individual plane,
or pick any ground unit of your choice.

All aircrafts can hit unsubmerged Submarines without Destroyer presence.

ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY
4 IPCs A0 D1 AAx2* M1 CM or NCM, 1 hit,
Taken as last casualty on offence.
*Fire each round @1 first strike against up to two aircrafts, which ever the lesser.
Regular defense @1 if there is no enemy’s plane.

@Baron:

This post was first introduced in Black_Elk thread.
It provides a different workable way of doing SBR for either 1942.2 and AA50.
It is a punitive mechanics, as OOB G40 instead of a bonus mechanics develop previously on this actual thread.

It is yet to be play-test to see if this can be balanced somehow.

It is also provided so anyone can more specifically post comment on this Convoy Disruption mechanics.

There is still a lot of issues to be able to translate this mechanic and principles into G40.
Any help is welcome.

Now, I can provide a complete and still simple National Convoy Disruption House rule for 1942.2. IDK if this mechanic can also works with G40.

First thing, the Convoy SZ is to be identify with owner’s Control Marker.
All Convoy SZs worth 4 IPCs and are bordering at least 1 TT or have an island group in it.
These TTs can worth 0 IPC to many IPCs, this doesn’t change the 4 IPCs Convoy SZ basis.

Here is all 1942.2 Convoy SZs I would implement (some such as SZs 2, 3, 45, 53, 57 can be considered as Allied lend-lease shipping SZs coming from either UK or US toward Russia or Australia) :

Soviet Union 24 IPCs
2 SZs x 4 IPCs = 8 IPCs max.
SZ 4 (Karelia and Archangel)
SZ 63 (Soviet Far East)

United Kingdom 31 IPCs
9 SZs x 4 IPCs = 36 IPCs max.
SZs 3 (Iceland), 7 (Northern UK), 8 (Southern UK),
SZs 10 (Eastern Canada), 13 (Gibraltar), 23 (West Africa),
SZs 34 (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Persia), 35 (India), 40 (New Zealand), 45 (North Eastern Australia)

United States 42 IPCs
9 SZs x 4 IPCs = 36 IPCs max.
SZs 2 (Greenland), 11 (US East Coast), 18 (Caribbean), 22 (Brazil),
SZs 53 (Hawaii), 55 (Mexico West Coast), 56 (US West Coast),
SZs 57 (Midway), 65 (Alaska/Western Canada)

Germany 41 IPCs
2 SZs x 4 IPCs = 8 IPCs max.
SZ 5 (Baltic)
SZ 15 (Italy)

Japan 30 IPCs
6 SZs x 4 IPCs = 24 IPCs max.
SZs 36 (Malaya), 47 (Borneo),
SZs 48 (Philippines), 60 (Japan), 61 (Costal China), 62 (Korea)

The most important thing to note :
lf at least 1 territory bordering (or the Island group within) the Convoy SZ is taken from his original owner and the Convoy SZ belong to the same owner, then this Convoy SZ is deactivated and can no longer be raided by enemy’s of the original Convoy SZ owner’s which have his control marker in this Convoy SZ.

When such Convoy SZ is deactivated, simply flip this Nation Control Marker face downward.

Only Submarine can raid Convoy SZ.

During Phase 3: Conduct Combat
Combat Sequence
1. Strategic and tactical bombing raids AND/OR Convoy Disruption

Each Submarine can either make a regular attack (Step 3. General combat) or a Convoy raid (Step 1. S&TBR AND/OR Convoy Disruption).
Even if there is warships (including DD) in Convoy SZ, Submarine can still make such raid.

Once the raid is done, Submarine cannot retreat and must stay in raided SZ.

Each 5 IPCs Submarine can make 1 IPC + 1 to 3 IPCs damage, by rolling 1D6: 1-3 = 1-3 IPCs / 4-6 = 0 damage.
So a single Sub always does at least 1 IPC damage (50% of the time, and more the other 50%).

There is no defense roll and Destroyer cannot do anything about it.
It is up to the Convoy SZ owner’s to send Destroyers (and more) on his turn to sink Subs.

These damage and odds are for:
5 IPCs Sub A2 first strike, D1 M2, damage: 1D6 (1-3= 1-3 / 4-6 = 0) +1 IPCs.
6 IPCs Destroyer A2 D2 M2, cancel 1:1 Sub Submerge and Stealth Move but not first strike.

If you want to play with OOB Sub and DD, then damage per Sub must be 2 IPCs + 1-3 IPCs.

The odds must be different because Submarine commander must see some benefits to not attack warships.
The odds for 5 IPCs Sub is 2/6 x 6 IPCs for DD = 2 IPCs damage on average.
1 IPC + 1-3 IPCs gives the same 2 IPCs average.

The odds for OOB 6 IPCs Sub are 2/6 x 8 IPCs DD = 2 2/3 IPCs
2 IPCs + 1-3 IPCs gives 3 IPCs average but the cap is 4, which gives 2 5/6 IPCs.
This is pretty close, and OOB Subs are lame ducks on defense vs DDs.

Damage are immediately remove from Convoy owner’s hands, never more than 4 IPCs per SZ for the whole game round.

And attacker must put chips under owner’s National Control Marker (1 chip per IPC damage) as a reminder for the game round of how many IPCs were raided if multiple raids occur from more than one alliance powers.

These chips will be removed from under National Control Marker in SZ during Convoy SZ’s owner 1. Purchase and Repair Units. Step 2: Pay for Units and Repair Damaged Units
and Facilities.

Below, you get the picture of a modified 1942.2 map marked with these SZs.

National Convoy Disruption House rule for AA50 1941 set up.
Here is all AA50 Convoy SZs, 1941 set-up I would implement (some such as SZs 2, 46, 53, 57 can be considered as Allied lend-lease shipping SZs coming from either UK or US toward Russia or Australia) :

Soviet Union 24 IPCs
2 SZs x 4 IPCs = 8 IPCs max.
SZ 4 (Karelia and Archangel)
SZ 63 (Soviet Far East)

United Kingdom 43 IPCs
10 SZs x 4 IPCs = 40 IPCs max.
SZs 2 (Iceland / North of UK), 8 (Southern UK), 9 (Eastern Canada), 12 (Gibraltar), 17 (French West Africa),
SZs 34 (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Persia), 35 (India), 38 (East Indies), 46 (Solomon Islands), 47 (Eastern Australia)

United States 40 IPCs
9 SZs x 4 IPCs = 36 IPCs max.
SZs 2 (Greenland / North of UK), 10 (US East Coast), 18 (Brazil), 19 (Caribbean),
SZs 53 (Hawaii), 55 (Mexico West Coast), 56 (US West Coast),
SZs 57 (Midway), 65 (Alaska/Western Canada)

Germany 31 IPCs
1 SZ x 4 IPCs = 4 IPCs max.
SZ 5 (Baltic)

Italy 10 IPCs
1 SZ x 4 IPCs = 4 IPCs max.
SZ 14 (Italy)

Japan 17 IPCs
6 SZs x 4 IPCs = 24 IPCs max.
SZ 36 (South Malaya), SZ 37 (French Indo-China),
SZ 49* (Borneo), SZ 50* (Philippines),
SZ 61 (Coastal China), SZ 62 (Japan)
*Deactivated on set-up.

Below, you get the picture of a modified AA50 map marked with these SZs.

@baron-Münchhausen

After a few test, I would say 3 IPCs token per SZs is fairly balanced for both AA50 and 1942.2.
Probably G40 economy is better with 4 IPCs Convoy SZ.
The issue is how you roll damage with Subs.
For instance, 1, 2 means 1 IPC, 3 & 4 means 2 IPCs, 5 & 6 means 3 IPCs.
OR 1, 2 , 3 worth 1, 2 or 3 while 4, 5, 6 means 3 IPCs also. The SZ has been maxed out.
OR, 1, 2, 3 worth 1, 2 or 3 IPCs, 4, 5, 6 means zero IPC.
Or, damage is 1 IPC + d6 roll: 3, 4, 5, 6 meaning plus zero for 1 IPC damage, 1 roll meaning 2 and 2 roll for 3 IPCs damage.

To what extent do you want auto damage from Sub convoy raiding?

I don’t have definite answer on that matter.

@Imperious-Leader
On Baltic convoys in 1942.2 or AA50, instead of Norway Sz, it is about giving a real opportunity for Germany to defend it against USSR Sub or other Allies built in Atlantic.

The scale and pace of this game cannot give room for a working weak spot so far from Germany’s influence in Norway SZ, even if this only 1 SZ away from Baltic. Trying to protect this SZ outside is a waste of money or units. So, it remains almost a deprivation of Germany’s IPCs with no way to win the upper hand.

In Baltic, when Germany abandon ship building, then it still becomes an Allied Sub raiding zone.
Just a bit later.

So, it is the compromising between play balance and historical accuracy.

@baron-Münchhausen said in Convoy Disruption for 1942.2 & G40 Submarine economic warfare:

It is a punitive mechanics, as OOB G40 instead of a bonus mechanics develop previously on this actual thread.
It is yet to be play-test to see if this can be balanced somehow.

This new sequence with modified SZs is inspired by the quoted post.

Now, I can provide a revised for Redesigned National Convoy Disruption House rule for 1942.2.
First thing, the Convoy SZ is to be identify with Power’s Convoy Marker on map.
All Convoy SZs worth 3 IPCs and are bordering at least 1 TT or have an island group in it. These TTs can worth 0 IPC to many IPCs, this doesn’t change the 3 IPCs Convoy SZ basis.

Here is 1942.2 modified map (for more action into Pacific Theatre) Convoy SZs I would implement (some such as SZs 2, 3, 34, 45, 53, 57 can be considered as Allied lend-lease shipping SZs coming from either UK or US toward Russia or Australia) :

Soviet Union 25 IPCs
3 SZs x 3 IPCs = 9 IPCs max.
SZ 4 (Karelia and Archangel)
SZ 34 (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Persia),
SZ 63 (Soviet Far East)

United Kingdom 40 IPCs
10-12 SZs x 3 IPCs = 30-36 IPCs max.
SZ 2 (Greenland)
SZs 3 (Iceland), 7 (Northern UK), 8 (Southern UK),
SZs 10 (Eastern Canada), 13 (Gibraltar), 23 (West Africa),
35 (India), 40 (New Zealand), 45 (North Eastern Australia)
If captured by Allies: 37 (East Indies), 44 (Solomon Islands).

United States 50 IPCs
9 SZs x 3 IPCs = 27 IPCs max.
SZs 2 (Greenland), 11 (US East Coast), 18 (Caribbean), 22 (Brazil),
SZs 53 (Hawaii), 55 (Mexico West Coast), 56 (US West Coast),
SZs 57 (Midway), 65 (Alaska/Western Canada)

Germany 45 IPCs
2 SZs x 3 IPCs = 6 IPCs max.
SZ 5 (Baltic)
SZ 15 (Italy)

Japan 35 IPCs
6 SZs x 3 IPCs = 18 IPCs max.
SZs 36 (Malaya), 47 (Borneo),
SZs 48 (Philippines), 60 (Japan), 61 (Costal China), 62 (Korea)

An important thing to note :
lf at least 1 territory bordering (or the Island group within) the Convoy SZ is taken from his original owner and the Convoy SZ belong to the same owner, then this Convoy SZ is deactivated and can no longer be raided by enemy’s of the original Convoy SZ owner’s which have his control marker in this Convoy SZ.

When such Convoy SZ is deactivated, simply place a Nation Control Marker from enemy power onto it.

Only Submarine can raid Convoy SZ.

During Phase 1 of a Power’s turn, renamed : Convoy disruption and damage repair on IC and 2 hits units.

Each enemy’s Submarine present in a Convoy SZ of the Power’s turn makes a Convoy raid (Convoy Disruption).
Even if there is warships (including Destroyers) in Convoy SZ, Submarine can still make such raid. Once the raid is done, Submarines stay in raided SZ.

Each Submarine can make up to 3 IPCs damage, by rolling 1D6 divided by 2: 1-2 = 1, 3-4 = 2, 5-6 IPCs = 3 IPC damage.
So a single Sub always does at least 2 IPCs damage on average.

There is no defense roll and Destroyer cannot do anything about it.
It is up to the Convoy SZ owner’s to send Destroyers (and more) during his turn to retaliate and sink Subs in combat phase.

Damage are immediately remove from Convoy owner’s hands, never more than 3 IPCs per SZ.
*Exception: when there is two Convoy markers (Greenland SZ 2).
Such a raid is still up to 3 IPCs per Power’s turn, but can reach up to 6 IPCs, when UK’s and US’s damage are summed up. *

Below, you get the picture of a modified 1942.2 map marked with these SZs.