• Sponsor

    After studying the board, and knowing that I will be playing the Allies during my first 1942.2 game on Saturday March 28th… I noticed that a UK raid on sea zone 37 turn 1 is not only possible but necessary.

    The UK can get there with…

    1X aircraft carrier @1
    1X submarine @2 (surprise strike)
    2X cruisers @3
    2X fighters @3

    against a Japanese fleet with…

    1X aircraft carrier @2
    2X fighters @4
    1X battleship @4 (2 hits to destroy)

    I understand that this is a pretty hairy battle, but I can see that if the UK doesn’t do this… the cruiser, and transport off Australia are dead without much effort on Japan’s turn, so if they’re already dead… why not use them to take out Japanese capital ships?

    Even if the UK is left with only 1 fighter which can be landed in India, it’s still a success because the transport off Australia can pick up 2 infantry and stage in sea zone 30 making it completely safe from all Japanese units (this is the only scenario I see that would allow that transport to survive), and would give more units to India if not blocked by a Japanese destroyer, in which case they could land in Africa which would also help compensate for the fighter removed from Egypt for the 37 raid.

    Just wondering if this is a standard UK move in this game, because I can’t see a better use for those UK units in the Indian ocean and off Sydney than taking out 2 Japanese capital ships and 2 fighters. This would immediately put the US fleet at par with the Japanese fleet if the US cruiser off Panama goes to the Pacific.

  • Moderator 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 '12

    I would always do it, YG.

  • '19 '18 '17 '16 '15

    I used to think this is a great move.  I still think it is, only if if succeeds…

    the dice swing could go pretty wild.  Often you lose everything and Japan still has a battleship left…

    I think the UK could still do a few different things, depending on what’s happening at that moment:  When possible I love to escape to Med sea , or instead of doing sz37 move, I attack the transport indeed; or just try to split the target so Japan cannot destroy with full force; or even fly a Russia fighter to Eygpt to save a UK fighter to Carrier for better defense…etc.

  • Moderator 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 '12

    NIce to hear  your thoughts on this, Innohub. You play a lot, so have probably seen all kinds of adverse rolls in that battle.
    I am ultra conservative and would always hit that navy.  I would also add a Sub as a bid, of course. Might be the UK’s only really decisive attack in the game!

  • '19 '18 '17 '16 '15

    Yes, if there is a bid it’s tempting not to do it  :evil:

  • Sponsor

    Without the bid, how many times out of 100 does the UK win 37? (sorry… I don’t know how to use the calculater).

  • Moderator 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 '12

    I can’t either. People are always quoting percentages. Means nothing to me!
    Must be at least 3 in 4, do you think Innohub?

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    Ha ha ha ha   Well for what its worth. I got attacker survives 51.8 % and defender 48.9%.
    Thats based on 1000 battles.  I’m sure somebody will post another result.

    I can relate to ya wittman, if I’m rolling dice probably more like attacker 20% win.  😄

  • '19 '18 '17 '16 '15

    @wittmann:

    I can’t either. People are always quoting percentages. Means nothing to me!
    Must be at least 3 in 4, do you think Innohub?

    My impression is 3 in 5  😄 .  I think the percentage is in UK favor but as long as the 1st round of dice goes wrong the whole dynamic flips upside down.

    The worse thing is if battle does not succeed it spells automatic death to Australia transport as well…

  • Sponsor

    @innohub:

    @wittmann:

    I can’t either. People are always quoting percentages. Means nothing to me!
    Must be at least 3 in 4, do you think Innohub?

    My impression is 3 in 5 � 😄 . � I think the percentage is in UK favor but as long as the 1st round of dice goes wrong the whole dynamic flips upside down.

    The worse thing is if battle does not succeed it spells automatic death to Australia transport as well…

    I thought the transport off Australia was automaticaly dead if they don’t have 30 to escape to after a successful 37 raid… is there a way to save the transport if there is no 37 raid?

    Also, I just read that damaged battleships that survive combat are automaticaly repaired, so imagine if the UK loses everything and the damaged Japanese batteship becomes fully operational afterwards?.. HOLY SH1T (epic fail).

  • '17 '16 '15

    Also, I just read that damaged battleships that survive combat are automaticaly repaired, so imagine if the UK loses everything and the damaged Japanese batteship becomes fully operational afterwards?… HOLY SH1T (epic fail).

    Kinda like fighting the terminator 🙂

  • '17 '16

    @Young:

    I thought the transport off Australia was automaticaly dead if they don’t have 30 to escape to after a successful 37 raid… is there a way to save the transport if there is no 37 raid?

    Also, I just read that damaged battleships that survive combat are automaticaly repaired, so imagine if the UK loses everything and the damaged Japanese batteship becomes fully operational afterwards?.. HOLY SH1T (epic fail).

    If you really want to get ride of the Battleship, sometimes it worth it to keep the Sub and take other units as casualty (Carrier, Cruisers or Fgs).
    A first strike @2 which can only hit warship (either CV or BB) can be more devastating on the next combat round once 1 hit has been applied to BB, Japan has no DD in SZ 37 (hence Japanese’Zero Fgs can’t hit the UK’s Sub).
    It can be quite funny the first time you see the opponent face when you keep the 6 IPCs Sub and sacrifice a 12 IPCs Cruiser instead, as he understand how his damaged BB is at risk even if it still have his 2 Fgs and already loose the Carrier.

    Keeping the Sub as the last casualty can even be the long shot needed to sink this Battleship.
    It is quite counter-intuitive but it is the way to make it a 1:1 fight, Sub vs BB.
    The first strike is quite useful here.

    Even if you only bring 1 Fg into combat, keeping the Sub as the last casualty gives this results:
    Overall %: A. survives: 50.2% D. survives: 69.5% No one survives: 0%
    This means you get a 50% of survival for the Sub and it imply that the Battleship will be destroyed while one or two Zero Fgs are still able to land into East Indies.
    If you choose the usual casualty order (Carrier, Sub, Cruiser, 1 Fighter), you get a much lower odds of survival:
    Overall %
    : A. survives: 30.6% D. survives: 65% No one survives: 6.4%

    If you can bring two UK’s Fgs into SZ37, it rise to:
    Overall %*: A. survives: 74.8% D. survives: 36.2% No one survives: 0%

    If you keep UK’s Fg as the last unit, you get this score:
    Overall %*: A. survives: 63.1% D. survives: 31.5% No one survives: 5.7%

    You may have a better odds of destroying all Japanese units (68.5%) but when Japan survives most of the time it is the BB which go to the board fully repaired.

    Another point about BB damage:
    even if USA can damage it, if on Russia’s turn it is damaged too, and on UK’s turn it is damaged by another attack, the Battleship on Japanese’s turn will still be fully repaired.
    The rule stated that it is repaired once you put it back on to the board (after any combat).
    Much more powerful than G40 BB.

  • Sponsor

    Good point, could change the entire dynamics of the battle.

  • '17 '16

    I can also add that replacement Fgs are easier to bring into India while producing a Sub (or any other naval unit) into the India’s SZ imply you will only produce 2 ground units on land.

    This UK Sub can be a pain in the A… for Japan

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    I’ve done this vs the Hard AI in Triple A and the first time, I ended up with a Cruiser left which is about what was expected.  Every other time that I’ve tried it, it has ended up a total loss by Britain.  Yeah, I know the odds and that is what is frustrating.  I thought it would be a good idea for a strafe attack so you could retreat the entire navy back to India.  That went belly up as well.  The problem is that the 3 4’s seem to hit more often than the 4 3’s.

    It’s a little bit like the multi-territory attack by Russia; it looks good on paper and when it works, it’s great however when it goes badly it really puts the Allies in a worse position that they started.

    It would probably work against me…  Since I, like everyone else, get worse than average rolls…  😮

    Kirk S.

  • '19 '15 '14

    I think the 37 battle is one of the first things I struggled with on this board. Without a UK sub or fighter bid it’s too dicey for my taste, and the Japanese sz 61 transport left alive is a royal pain for India. But with a sub bid, it’s almost too good for players to pass up. This was one of the things that had me trying to find alternatives to UK bids, and eventually settled on that Ruskie bomber as one way to get the Allies feeling all happy and aggreable, without requiring the first round battle distortions that a UK bid seemed to produce.

    Outlaw started an interesting discussion about it a while back. I remember seeing innohub and ROC there. MarineIguana and COW also made a couple interesting points about it starting on page 2 of this thread…
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32952.15

    COW suggests the hit on sz 61, and I think that’s where I fall too. Its just really hard to leave it alive. Though I think his position is that a pacific strategy is pretty pointless. For a bid game, MarineIguana favors the UK sub for sz15 and a Med focus rather than the hit on 37, and I came around to his position, before finally deciding that a UK bid (and especially for a sub) just busted the OOB game too much for me, which is when I started trying to come up with other solutions on balance.


  • SZ 37 is definitely not necessary, and it’s a common move I see among weaker players. I would say it compares unfavorably against the range of UK options.

    SZ 37 is a major exchange of UK navy for Japan navy/fighters. This has almost no benefit for allies if they intend to pressure Germany. Japan is left with a reduced navy, but even then, it’s enough to accomplish the goal of protecting Japan’s transports, pressuring India, and pressuring Africa. Let’s not even mention that it’s a high volatility battle even with a 1 uk sub bid.

    Attacking SZ37 could be worthwhile if allies intend to follow up with USA fully committing to the pacific.

    Optimal options in my opinion:

    • Attacking SZ61 with a cruiser and fighter. Destroys a critical Japanese transport and slows the Japan deployment.
    • retreating the UK trans + cruiser off australia towards africa. Good japan players generally won’t attack because it puts the japan fleet out of position.
    • save the 2 uk fighters + bomber to either directly kill Germany med round 1 or threaten to round 2. 2 fighters can also be used to defend India.
    • retreating UK carrier off madagascar with the goal of uniting in Europe where it’s actually useful.

    My apologies, it’s been a while since i’ve actually played this map since almost nobody plays it on Triplea.

  • Sponsor

    Thanks for all this guys, great to hear from such experienced players before my first game… Just a couple of questions in that last post…

    The conversation between us inexperienced players on this board is centred around saving the Australian transport and cruiser. Now if I move it toward Africa like you suggest, and an inexperienced Japan player moves his fleet “out of position”… how do the allies take advantage of that? especially if killing those UK units is more important than staying close to home, to me those Japanese ships can come back to India and reunite with a landing force without being missed.

    Also, killing a Japanese transport and destroyer are good, but as Japan… won’t a factory in FIT compensate for the lost transport?

    And finally… sailing an aircraft carrier all the way around Africa and using everything else in the Indian Ocean in the Med seems like giving up on India. I know that Germany is a force and needs to be delt with, but I’m looking at Baron’s numbers and think that the Americans can help in Africa a little while the UK helps in Pacific. Won’t an experienced Japanese player use those ships and fighters to crush India? If they are left alone, won’t they converge to form an untouchable navy?

    The Taranto raid in Global is devastating to the Italian navy, but if the UK is not aggressive and leaves the Med without using the opening round setup to it’s advantage… than the Italians build around their battleship and take the Middle East and Africa. I feel that if the UK leaves the Japanese ships, the Japanese navy will never fall (sorry for the Global chat, but to me it’s parallel).

    Of course, I don’t want to be that guy that experienced players look at and shake their heads saying… “he’ll understand someday”. However, I know that in some cases aggression is good, and I just want to do the best thing for each of my starting units. I hope this doesn’t sound rude, because I don’t mean to be… I have a lot of respect for the insight of expereinced players, I just wanted to hear better uses for the UK Pacific navy instead of 37 other than place your ships in 30 and hope that the Japan player is experienced enough not to hit it, or something better for the carrier other than wishing it started off Canada.

  • '19 '15 '14

    to MarineIguana: Yeah its kind of a bummer that more tripleA users aren’t playing this one. I think its actually a pretty fun little board, and has the advantage of still being in print and reasonably affordable for Face to Face play.

    The more I play the more I’ve come to appreciate the Germany focus, especially on the Med/Africa. The trick with 37 is that it looks so much more promising than it actually is. The first time you see it, you really want to try it, especially new players who are just settling into the specifics of this map. Like soon as you realize that the Australia ships can join in the fight, I feel like everyone has the same reaction of “hell yeah! lets go for it!” Not least because in Classic and Revised, you didn’t have any kind of long shot hit against a Japanese Carrier or Battleship.
    😄

    And then you get absolutely smoked by the Battleship, or watch the sz61 transport push Burma, and it kind of highlights how 37 is really putting everything on the line in one fight. I mean, I suppose if you want to take the gamble, and go nutso Pacific with USA, its still fun. But for the endgame and the best overall chances, Germany focus on this board, same as before. India still gives it a new dimension over previous boards, so the game doesn’t need to be totally absent a Pacific aspect. For the most part I like the set up, my main gripes have more to do with production distribution, since the unit set up and basic map divisions offer some pretty cool changes from Revised.

    Curious what you think of the Moscow bomber idea, as an alternative standard bid MarineIguana?

    I think it is less overpowered than a UK med bid, while still offering some interesting potential. Like for canal defense at 1 extra defensive pip if the player wants to bring the fighter and hold. Or a sz5 Baltic hit with 1 fighter 1 bomber vs German transport. Or sz 61 hit with 1 bomber vs the second Japanese transport. Better positioning against sz 16 for an R2 air strike 2 fighters 1 bomber. I think its a bit more dynamic than the British sub, without being too overpowered, since it puts the pressure on Russia to play out this advantage rather than UK. Any thoughts? Its the way I’ve been playing all 1942.2 games lately. I might have to hit KublaCon this year I guess if people are around, I’ll try to find time off work. I like in SF

    To YG: I think you could go either way ultimately, factory spam or transports, though I tend to favor transports at the outset. Maybe it is just something ground into me after all those years in Revised, where I still feel like if you drop factories before ships you leave yourself open to abuse. And I like to get the max use I can from starting units and production in Japan. Here things are a bit different though, and the pressure to take India for Japan and steal the production is definitely huge. I don’t think its quite as one dimensional here as it has been on some of the other 5 man boards. UK can make some fun sacrifices to shock Japan, and USA can be an annoyance that sticks around, the one element that’s harder to activate against a full pacific press is Russia. Its hard for me not to bring the Evenki units to Archangel, or to use Tanks in the opening attacks, because of possible Karelia stacking, and if you can’t send the Evenki dudes forward against Japan or fighters or tanks, the full triple shock seems just a lot harder.

    I’m not sure what I would do to see Japan go forward against the evacuated Australia transport. I feel like even if its loaded some Japanese players don’t want to go after it. If it is unloaded it makes for a less attractive bait. Japan has no destroyer for carrier defense so I think its not worth going after the Australian transport with a cruiser and sub as fodder. Its also possible for that NZ transport to just turn right back on UK2, and stay in the Pacific if you want. Or sacrifice it to reinforce Australia from NZ initially, that’d also be a similar bait to put Japan out of position I suppose. Another place is converge all British ships with floating units into sz30, I guess the floaters are what activates it beyond just “all ships for a max defense” logic. This usually needs both UK fighters, gives up a position on the Canal and allows Japan to Burma push with the sz61 transport, but it also preserves all the naval units in sz30. Floating units put pressure on Japan to either make an ugly attack which they are likely to lose, or else defend south with their fleet. Then you just bounce back to Africa and let USA take over the distraction. That’s a play I’ve seen too, but its painful for India because of that second Japanese transport left alive. The carrier takes less time to round Africa than it might seem, or it can push the med (if canal is held.) Or hang out in sz 33, either as a bait or with a fighter on it. Or other times I just feel kind of crazy, and regard all units that start in the Pacific as “write offs” and just say anything sacrificed is fine, as long is messes up Axis in some way that puts them out of their comfort zone. I kind of look at both transports that way sometimes.

    know that Germany is a force and needs to be delt with, but I’m looking at Baron’s numbers and think that the Americans can help in Africa a little while the UK helps in Pacific. Won’t an experienced Japanese player use those ships and fighters to crush India? If they are left alone, won’t they converge to form an untouchable navy?

    If I was Japan that’s what I’d try! 😄 I guess that’s why its such a hard call for me to make too.

    @Baron:

    It can be quite funny the first time you see the opponent face when you keep the 6 IPCs Sub and sacrifice a 12 IPCs Cruiser instead, as he understand how his damaged BB is at risk even if it still have his 2 Fgs and already loose the Carrier.

    Haha totally! Nailed

  • Sponsor

    I’ve decided that I’m going to do the 37 raid every time I play the Allies until it fails… then I’m never doing it again.

  • Moderator 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 '12

    … Oh, but you will. It is England’s best bet.

    And yes, everybody, I go all  Pacific as the US. The German player can keep the Allies away from Europe, using Air. Best to safeguard Russia’s backdoor (and income), by keeping the Japanese watching the US.

  • Sponsor

    @wittmann:

    … Oh, but you will. It is England’s best bet.

    And yes, everybody, I go all  Pacific as the US. The German player can keep the Allies away from Europe, using Air. Best to safeguard Russia’s backdoor (and income), by keeping the Japanese watching the US.

    If you do that with the US in the Pacific, does it involve a factory in Alaska… or is that unnecessary?

  • Moderator 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 '12

    No, YG.
    The US doesn’t really have the money to do that.

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