XPAD2 Game 21 Dicer's Creed (axis) vs Team GARL (allies+12)

  • 2022 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '12

    Did the sub engage in combat or get in a combat situation?

    If not, then it was an illegal move, thus I think Garg would be entitled to change it.

  • 2022 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '12

    Yeah, that sub did not engage in combat, so Garg can edit it.  I don’t know what difference it would make anyway.  He could have not moved it and then changed it on ncm as many times as he wanted.

  • 2022 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '12

    Indeed, don’t we all make NCM on combat moves?  I do mostly just because I know I may forget something by the time I get to NCM…… I don’t have a problem with it.  😐


  • The only units allowed to move in both combat and ncm phases are air units regardless of whether or not they were involved in combat. Technically the only units that should move in the combat phase are units that will or conceivably could be involved in combat should a scramble or intercept decision be made. People make what should have been strictly ncm moves in the combat move phase. I don’t mind that bit, but once dice have been rolled I’m pretty hesitant to allow those units to move elsewhere.

    No dice were rolled in the Atlantic, but they were in the pac and that’s the direction that those fleet units headed toward. Maybe that was the intention all along or maybe the results influenced that decision (consciously or subconsciously). I don’t know, I’m not a mind reader. I’m not trying to imply anything, I’m simply standing by my previous statement about edits after combat dice.


  • If he hadn’t moved it during the combat move phase  then I wouldn’t have ANY issue with that edit. It’s simply the fact that it moved once prior to combat rolls and then edited it after those rolls.

  • 2022 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '12

    Well, it’s a small move, but important we get this sorted out since I make provisional NCMs on CM all the time.

    My point is that it was illegal to move the sub anyway and should not have counted or been allowed, so it makes no sense in making Garg stick with an illegal move, regardless of the dice. The other way seems punitive.  Besides the remedy for an illegal move is to withdraw the move, not affirm it.

    I vote that “provisional” NCMs made during combat moves can be changed regardless of dice. That is technically the rule anyway.

    If we can’t get a consensus then we should submit to the moderator so we know where we stand going forward.

  • '12

    i haven’t looked at a map but noncoms made in combat can be taken back whenever because they are illegal, to my understanding.  obviously though, one should just never make them because of the confusion it can cause.


  • @seththenewb:

    Also, I failed to talk to my partner to figure out what his mind is on the matter. But let’s discuss edits so we’re all agreed before any potential issues arise. I know you both and doubt we’ll have any issues whatsoever, but I figure it’d be easier to get this clear before any of the 4 of us are influenced by the board. I’m fine with ncm edits as lon as they’re stated for the most part. So long as they’re not too late and don’t directly affect something that already occured. I’m also okay with combat edits for things like walk-ins that should be obvious. Combat edits involving dice I will probably have an issue with. It depends on the circumstances, but assume that my decision will be a no from the get go. Feel free to ask though as I can be reasonable. Everyone good with edits? Want no edits after that turn? Something else?

    @Karl7:

    @Gargantua:

    @seththenewb:

    Started out ugly and got downright nasty with your 3 hits in sz111.�� 😐

    So about the editing, what’s the verdict on that?

    I think we are on page with your comments. ��I prefer friendly games, as I am sure you do!

    I generally work off the principle that all edits are fair game until dice are rolled. ��Once dice are rolled, it’s openly up to the opposing party to decide what they will allow.

    A position of being reasonable is best. ��I like to play my opponents at their best game, and I am sure they feel the same!

    Agree

    Bolded for emphasis. I stated prior to any sramble/intercept orders on G1 what my position on edits after combat dice were.  All of us have made changes to ncm after dice, but none of those changes that I’ve noticed involved a unit that was moved prior to combat dice, not counting air units. I haven’t had an issue with any of those other edits and I will continue not having issues with similar edits in the future. But as originally stated before this game really started, I would have issues with edits after dice were thrown.

    Most everyone makes ncm moves during the combat move phase. And I also do it from time to time. It’s not my intention to police anyone or wag my finger at them and tell them they can’t do that. But I will protest that those moves stick if someone tries to make post battle edits/moves involving those units.

    No combat happened in Europe. But the Iwo Jima battle did cost more than was probably expected and it’s concievable that the decision to move the Atlantic fleet including the already moved sub into the Pacific was partly influenced by the results of that battle. It’s also entirely possible that that move was planned from the start in view of the threat to India and/or Euro Axis weaker start. I couldn’t tell you and it really doesn’t matter in my opinion on this.

  • '12

    @Boldfresh:

    i haven’t looked at a map but noncoms made in combat can be taken back whenever because they are illegal, to my understanding.  obviously though, one should just never make them because of the confusion it can cause.

    i have no dog in the fight but i will say that noncoms made in the combat move phase are illegal - moves in the combat phase can only be made if attacking or in order to avoid attacking.

  • 2022 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '12

    NCMs are per se influenced by the dice, so ergo if a NCM is made out of turn during CM and is influenced by the rolls, it should be changed. The problem here is not that the NCM was influenced by the dice, but that the it was made out of order.

    The first order issue here is not “dice influence”, it’s move order.  It was an illegal move.  But as we all know, the fact that it was illegal is pointless because the penalty would be to withdraw/prevent the move and then make the player move it properly on NCM.

    Let’s see what Dutchman and Garg say.  Again, if we can’t get agreement then we need a ruling.

    The issue here is you need a bright line rule that you can NCM on CM or not.  Otherwise there will be too much second guessing.  I prefer that you can NCM on CM just because it will allow for less errors and the other way–that you are stuck-- is too draconian and in fact not in agreement with “the rules” anyway.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Apologies,

    It was a misclick/error from when I was in the planning stages of my moves.  I was reviewing some different looks, including a Gibraltar stack, and recalled my navy without seeing that I had moved the sub there separately.  The units including the sub were to move in Non-Combat.  Apologies again for confusion.

    If there was technical bearing or a purpose for committing the sub in the Combat Phase to gain any kind of theoretical or optical advantage -  I would agree entirely agree with your position Seth and leave it as is.  But it’s an error.

    And to clarify - “Once dice are rolled, it’s openly up to the opposing party to decide what they will allow.” I do stand by this statement, and this is my perspective:"

    #1. The movement was technically Illegal, and therefore must be changed.
    #2. The movement was an error, thus in my view - The piece had not moved yet.

  • '10

    I’m OK with the sub movement, so we will go with it.  I do agree with Seth generally though that if you are moving units in CM you intend them to be permanent, regardless of dice or whether it was “illegal”.  I am very careful when I play TripleA to ALWAYS do only CM during the CM phase.

    When I do a walk-in, I take 1 unit always and then move in the rest non-com.  Although not a direct comparison here to the sub movement, if I walk 4 units into Suiyuan on CM, but I only needed to walk in 1 to take it, well tough.  I should be stuck with the 4 I moved in.  But that is different because that is a “legal” combat move.  So, from here  on, let’s try to do only “legal” CM during the CM phase, and we can avoid this issue.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Thanks for your thoughts Dutch.

    Where’s the Italian turn? 😛

    Hope you are doing okay at the hospital Seth…


  • Also, from now on, legal move or not; all units in CM are locked there. Feel free to make ncm moves in the cm phase. Like I said I’m not going to try and police whether people move in the cm or ncm phase. But what moves in that phase is locked from further movement.


  • TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

    Game History

    Round: 2

    Purchase Units - Italians
                Italians buy 1 transport; Remaining resources: 2 PUs;

    Combat Move - Italians
                1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Tobruk to Egypt
                1 bomber moved from Southern Italy to Anglo Egyptian Sudan
                1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Kenya to Anglo Egyptian Sudan
                1 fighter moved from Southern Italy to Egypt
                2 infantry moved from Northern Italy to 95 Sea Zone
                2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 95 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
                2 infantry moved from 98 Sea Zone to Egypt
                1 artillery and 4 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Yugoslavia
                1 armour moved from Romania to Belarus
                1 armour moved from Slovakia Hungary to Belarus
                1 cruiser moved from 95 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
                2 infantry moved from Bulgaria to Yugoslavia

    Combat - Italians
                Battle in Egypt
                    Italians attack with 1 armour, 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
                    British defend with 1 harbour; ANZAC defend with 1 infantry
                    Italians win, taking Egypt from British with 1 armour, 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                    Casualties for ANZAC: 1 infantry
                Battle in Belarus
                    Italians attack with 2 armour
                    Russians defend with 1 infantry
                    Italians win, taking Belarus from Russians with 2 armour remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                    Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
                Battle in Anglo Egyptian Sudan
                    Italians attack with 1 artillery, 1 bomber and 1 infantry
                    British defend with 1 artillery and 2 infantry
                    Italians win, taking Anglo Egyptian Sudan from British with 1 artillery and 1 bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
                    Casualties for British: 1 artillery and 2 infantry
                    Casualties for Italians: 1 infantry
                Battle in Yugoslavia
                    Italians attack with 1 artillery and 6 infantry
                    Neutral_Allies defend with 3 infantry
                    1 artillery owned by the Italians and 3 infantry owned by the Italians retreated to Northern Italy
                    Neutral_Allies win with 3 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -9
                    Casualties for Italians: 3 infantry

    Non Combat Move - Italians
                1 artillery moved from Southern France to Northern Italy
                1 destroyer moved from 95 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
                1 bomber moved from Anglo Egyptian Sudan to Alexandria
                1 fighter moved from Egypt to Alexandria
                2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from Tobruk to Alexandria
                1 infantry moved from British Somaliland to Ethiopia

    Place Units - Italians
                1 transport placed in 95 Sea Zone

    Turn Complete - Italians
                Italians collect 17 PUs; end with 19 PUs total
                Objective Italians 1 Control The Mediterranean: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 24 PUs

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @seththenewb:

    Also, from now on, legal move or not; all units in CM are locked there. Feel free to make ncm moves in the cm phase. Like I said I’m not going to try and police whether people move in the cm or ncm phase. But what moves in that phase is locked from further movement.

    Well I’m glad that we are all in agreement to move forward.

    However, I am going to caution against this argument.

    What I’m reading here is an argument that my sub off the west coast of Australia could not have moved in noncombat because it chose to stay in place during the combat move… ???

    Because choosing not to move is a move.

    This is a terrible precedent to set…


  • That statement is also conflicting with the actual rules. After all when air units move during the combat phase, they can also move during the non combat phase. So that statement as it is right now is against the actual rules. I know it is aimed at naval units, but it doesn’t say that.

  • '10

    I think it should be simple: Do not move any unit during CM that you do not intend to be a permanent move, whether a CM or NCM.  Doesn’t matter.

    So, yes, you can only hurt yourself as the attacker if you make “extra” moves during CM.  I understand that mistakes can happen if you are mocking up different moves on the map beforehand, trying out different things before you actually post.  That’s why before I move for real, I always load up a fresh map, and do only true CMs.


  • Whether anyone wants to move any ground or naval units in the combat move phase that aren’t related to combat is up to them. But once they move they will stay moved, that’s all I’m saying. I don’t intend to start calling out every move that happens in the cm phase that isn’t related to combat and saying that’s illegal. But once combat dice are thrown and/or intercept/scramble decisions have been made then ALL units moved in the cm phase are locked to the terr or sz that they’ve moved to. And since we have a peanut gallery, obviously this doesn’t apply to air units.

  • '12

    hey karl and garg - hurry up!  we need an opponent in the pit and i think i know who it’s gonna be.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @seththenewb:

    Whether anyone wants to move any ground or naval units in the combat move phase that aren’t related to combat is up to them. But once they move they will stay moved, that’s all I’m saying. I don’t intend to start calling out every move that happens in the cm phase that isn’t related to combat and saying that’s illegal. But once combat dice are thrown and/or intercept/scramble decisions have been made then ALL units moved in the cm phase are locked to the terr or sz that they’ve moved to. And since we have a peanut gallery, obviously this doesn’t apply to air units.

    I can roll with this, so long as I dont start hearing arguments that I cant move pieces in NcM because they are “post die rolls”, or that I chose to leave them In place by not moving them move them during the combat phase.

    Let’s move on!


  • By that standard no ncm phase would exist except air trying to land.  :roll:

    There have been other moves in the cm phase that I haven’t kicked up a fuss about. I only called out this one because I don’t want the wrong precedent set. Look at it from another perspective. Say UK moved it’s fleet to sz91 in the cm phase at the same time that an attack was made on ships in sz112. If I make my scramble and any subsequent loss decisions based in part on what that fleet in sz91, I want to know that it’s going to stay there and it’s not going to suddenly be in sz109 instead.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @seththenewb:

    By that standard no ncm phase would exist except air trying to land.  :roll:

    There have been other moves in the cm phase that I haven’t kicked up a fuss about. I only called out this one because I don’t want the wrong precedent set. Look at it from another perspective. Say UK moved it’s fleet to sz91 in the cm phase at the same time that an attack was made on ships in sz112. If I make my scramble and any subsequent loss decisions based in part on what that fleet in sz91, I want to know that it’s going to stay there and it’s not going to suddenly be in sz109 instead.

    Looking at it from that perspective, Germany can argue that it chose to scramble on the basis that the UK fleet wasn’t moving to Sz91 or Sz112, and was staying in position.

    Hence why NCM’s done at the same time as combat are illegal.

    #1. I will make sure I don’t make NCM’s at the same time as CM
    #2. Neither party should base their strategy off of “illegal maneuvers” observed on the board.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

    Game History

    Round: 2

    Purchase Units - ANZAC
                ANZAC buy 1 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 1 transport; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

    Combat Move - ANZAC

    Non Combat Move - ANZAC
                2 aaGuns, 1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Queensland to South Australia
                1 destroyer moved from 54 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
                1 fighter moved from New South Wales to South Australia
                1 cruiser moved from 62 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone

    Place Units - ANZAC
                1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in New South Wales
                1 transport placed in 62 Sea Zone

    Turn Complete - ANZAC
                ANZAC collect 14 PUs; end with 14 PUs total


  • The German War Machine is ready, where’s the allied feeble attempts to save the day?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcz-Oho0tlU

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