Options for the UK Australian transport?


  • Assuming that the turn 1 UK attack on the E Indies happens and both the UK and Japanese fleets are wiped out, what can you do with the Australian transport?

    Here are the options I see, none of which I like too much:

    1.SZ 41.  Most likely killed by the sub, but at least draws that away from the J1 attack on Pearl Harbor.
    2.SZ 30.  Can be killed by the French Indochina fighter.  This fighter will have to land on E Indies, which could set up an easier UK2 attack on FIC.
    3.Invade New Guinea (67% win).  It can be reached from Japan in 1 turn, but they may not bother since its only 1 IPC.  A nice place for US planes in a KJF.  It can be reached by both bombers and fighters from US West.
    4.Invade Solomon Islands (67% win).  It can’t be reached by Japan in 1, but has no IPC value.  It is also a nice place for US planes that can be reached from USS West in 1.

    I am thinking that 4 is the best option.

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    I had a crazy idea of combining the navies together and strafing the Battleship, 2 Fighters and Carrier with the 2 Cruisers, Sub, 2 Fighters, Carrier and Transport with 2 infantry.  The infantry would be faking an amphibious assault on the East Indies.  After one round, retreat to Indian water space.  It can’t unload however it might just do some major damage to Japan and if you were to buy a second Carrier, Fighter and tank for India, it might make for an interesting turn for Japan.

    You can also invade East Indies with both transports and sacrifice the navies against the BB, 2 fig, car.  Average rolls will leave a single Cruiser for Britain.  The 4x2 infantry battle is about 50/50.

    This assumes that Germany didn’t take out your fighter in Egypt.  Russia would need to move a fighter down to dissuade Germany from attacking.

    If it goes badly, then the Allies are in trouble…  However, my opinion is that if the Allies get bad rolls early, the game is basically done.


  • For crazykirk  - I’ve used your ‘strafe’ maneuver many times in the past. It’s awesome and it almost feels like you’re cheating a little bit, lol. My favorite place to use it is in Norway to either get my German men ‘to or from’ there through Russian troops in Leningrad. I’m always trying to find a new way to surprise my buddies and the strafe / retreat tactic is one of my favorites that they rarely seem to use themselves or see coming. Oh well. Onward to Victory !!

    For mrchoad  - I’d take either option 3 or 4, or maybe this course of action: Sail east out of danger for one turn. Boring I know, but still an option.

    Cheers,
    Starlight Sniper

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    It would feel like cheating if the Game Manual didn’t have a big sample of it stating that you could get pieces to a location that would take two turns otherwise…  😉


  • @craykirk:

    You can also invade East Indies with both transports and sacrifice the navies against the BB, 2 fig, car.  Average rolls will leave a single Cruiser for Britain.  The 4x2 infantry battle is about 50/50.

    It is actually 77 - 21 in favour of the attacker. It is a viable move in a KJF.

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    Not the way I roll the dice…  😉


  • @seawolf:

    @craykirk:

    You can also invade East Indies with both transports and sacrifice the navies against the BB, 2 fig, car.  Average rolls will leave a single Cruiser for Britain.  The 4x2 infantry battle is about 50/50.

    It is actually 77 - 21 in favour of the attacker. It is a viable move in a KJF.

    The East Indies should be easily taken back on J1.  This pulls 2 infantry from India and loses both transports.  Why would UK try this attack?

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    That’s a good question…  I’ve only played it against the AI in TripleA and it didn’t do much and I always lose so I’m not a good player.  I’m thinking that the strafe option is better.  Given that Japan doesn’t have a lot of transports, please explain how it is taken back on J1 with at least one Cruiser in the area for the Brits.  If there is combined effort for a KJF, this would seem like a good opening strategy.  After all, we’ve all played KGF forever.  I understand that the game shouldn’t be just a chance roll of the dice however my own analysis, which is limited, indicates that Germany can simply push forwards and will overwhelm Russia given pretty average dice.  Pressure on Japan was always a difficult option.  Japan has less starting income and less options for increasing that income.

    It would seem, in my opinion, that taking pieces away from Japan is much easier than Germany.  I’ve read about the basic opening for Russia and if they go badly, the game is basically over.  I have all of the games and my friends have given up on it saying that it is so imbalanced against the Allies that it is unwinable.  I keep trying to come up with ideas for the Allies other than the basic shuck/shuck which killed the original game.  We came up with house rules of two hit battleship, bombers carrying infantry, etc.  It didn’t matter.

    I guess my thinking is just too limited.  All in against West Russia and hit Baltic with 1 inf, 1 art, 1 fig.  If the rolls go badly for Russia, what then?  If you don’t limit Japan, they can just become an air force monster, buying a bomber per turn and decimating any sort of navy you have.  Even when I took 11 away from them on the islands, the Pro AI still bought a bomber per turn and once I noticed that there were 7 bombers, it was way too late.  Japan faces little opposition.  I guess I will just play the Brits as 2 fig, 2 inf, 1 art.  How boring…

    shuck/shuck…  shuck/shuck…  lather, rinse and repeat…

    Where is the fun in that?

    BTW, the Cruiser, sub and transport can’t get far enough away to keep them from being wiped out.  Usually with 2 inf on the transport…  Run the carrier away and it takes forever to get into any sort of position to make a difference.  How long does it take Germany to push inf/art to the front line with all the tanks and fighters?


  • @craykirk:

    Given that Japan doesn’t have a lot of transports, please explain how it is taken back on J1 with at least one Cruiser in the area for the Brits.  If there is combined effort for a KJF, this would seem like a good opening strategy.

    I was thinking more of a mutual destruction scenario, but even with a cruiser left in the see zone, Japan should be able to take it back if they want.  They have a destroyer, 2 fighters, a bomber + an infantry and artillery to clear the sea and island.  Of course this will significantly weaken a J1 attack on the US fleet and draw 2 pieces off of mainland asia.  So, maybe it is worthwhile in a full KJF.

    I hear ya about the shuck/shuck.  I’m looking for some interesting option for the allies.  We finally had a allies win on this game in our last game and I hope to do a successful KJF soon.  It seems that the Aussie transport as well as the Aussie infantry never really get into the game.  So, I’m really trying to figure out something to do with them.

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    After trying this multiple times in TripleA, it seems like a bad idea.  I’ve figured out the odds and while the Britain fleet does have the opportunity to apply a massive blow and then retreat, the typical results have not been encouraging.  Two times, a total of one hit on offense and two in defense then retreating to India water, the AI then hit it with the BB, car, 2 fig and wiped it out with one hit on response.  I tend to get frustrated when 1 out of 4 50/50 are a success, followed by 0 out of 3 50/50 are a success and followed by 0/2 2/3 odds are a success.  While a single battle doesn’t decide the game, a round of getting diced is very hard to recover from as the Allies.

    I wonder if the Indian/Aussie fleets are just a distraction.  In one situation, I was able to actually take out the Japanese fleet with a Cruiser left over, the other eight or nine attempts have resulted in total loss will little impact.  There has to be something better to do which doesn’t rely on the dice so much.

    I haven’t found a way to prevent Germany from simply stacking Ukraine and forcing Russia to abandon West Russia or get wiped.  Germany pushes inf/art forwards and Japan pushes through China while America scrambles to get anything going and Britain reinforces with fighters in West Russia and inf/art in India.  Since the Axis are able to apply a 1/2 punch against Russia, the Allies should be able to apply a 1/2/3 punch against one of the Axis.  I haven’t been able to figure that one out in time.

    One of the issues that I am having is that the Axis have the opportunity to take some major pieces off the board with little chance of things going wrong and if they do, they lose a sub or two.  The Allies, from my point of view, simply don’t have that opportunity.  There are some basic Axis openings which pretty much dictate the Allied response.  In that way, it’s like chess where if you make a bad move, game over.

    What am I missing here?

  • '18 '17 '16

    1.SZ 41.  Most likely killed by the sub, but at least draws that away from the J1 attack on Pearl Harbor

    In Triple A your transport will not be attacked, if you let the british sub and cruiser guide it. This little fleet could move to the atlantic where they can meet with the americans or the part of the british fleet from India (carrier, transport, cruiser moving round africa). At least this works in Triple A, Hard AI.

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    Interesting…  Not for me; it comes in with the sub, carrier, cruiser and fighter which is a total loss for the Britts.  The last time, when I retreated to India with 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 1 fighter and added a fighter from my buy, the AI hit it with the battleship, carrier and 2 fighters.  This is 1@2, 1@3, 2@4 vs 1@1, 2@3, 1@4 which doesn’t seem like it is good odds.  I suppose destroying the transports and infantry must have made it mathematically juicy.  The AI got 3 hits and the response was 1 hit, the second round took the navy out and all misses on response.  At this point, I was ready to punch the screen.  :evil:  After all of the 3s and 4s that I had thrown (7 3s, 3 4s) I had a total of 2 hits in 2 battles.  The battleship absorbed the hit in each case which resulted in two turns worth of losses to Britain and positional loss on the board.  That’s pretty much game over.

    The only time that this has been a positive, I had a brain fart and didn’t keep the pressure on Japan.  Britain went for a second navy, which was wiped out, and didn’t press against Japan.

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    I’ve thought of buying navy for India however Japan can bring 1 bomber, 4 fighters, 1 carrier, battleship and a destroyer.  It requires the strafe to go very well and if it doesn’t, it leaves India and the Allies weak.  It just seems that with the initial board setup, the British navy is just there to be taken out with the hope that the response does more than simply damage a battleship which repairs immediately.

    I would still like to explore options for KJF as it seems that Japan should be easier to limit since their income options are limited to 1s and 2s.

    The only way this can work is for America to hit Japan first and Britain follow it up before Japan can resupply and regroup.

    What am I missing here?  I would like to at least beat the hard AI before I get embarrassed by a real person.  Russia gets overrun by turn 5.  There is no opportunity to “trade territories”.  The AI simply stacks Ukraine and once you give up Caucasus, it’s hard to take it back.  I’ve never been able to take a single fighter from the AI, the battles always come out with the fighters surviving.  Of course, industrial raids typically call for loss of bombers with little impact.  The AI gives up Western Europe and then wipes out the navy that comes in to take the “free territory”. I haven’t tried building a big US navy in the Atlantic; the old shuck/shuck is boring to me.

    I see no reason why Japan would attack Hawaii; it’s a crap shoot at best and there is no reason for the Axis to take questionable chances.

  • '19 '15 '14

    Allied bid?

    sz37 attack is pretty ugly if you’re not bringing in additional UK units on a bid, even with an extra sub it can get ugly. I think the consensus view for 42.2 has coalesced around the idea that its better to conserve the British carrier deck for use elsewhere, and hit sz 61 to sink the Japanese transport instead.

    If going all out into sz37, you should use the Australian transport to take East Indies as well. 4 inf vs 2. Or go to sz30 with the transport.

    2.SZ 30.  Can be killed by the French Indochina fighter.  This fighter will have to land on E Indies, which could set up an easier UK2 attack on FIC.

    FIC fighter can’t land in East Indies if UK controls it. 🙂 But even if UK doesn’t take East Indies, the FIC fighter can’t reach sz30 for an attack and land in East Indies anyway, as that would be 5 moves. So sz30 is likely the safest, if you don’t want to attack East Indies itself and wish to preserve the transports.

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    I agree to a point; the carrier really can’t get away and without the fighters, it’s a sitting duck…  The game seems to be setup wrong in my opinion.  Germany and Japan can decimate the British navy without much fear of loss…

    In the 8+ games that I’ve tried it, only once did I take the East Indies.  Every other time, it was a total loss for Britain and Japan had only a single hit on the battleship in two rounds of combat.  Hard to not get frustrated by those odds.  if the battle doesn’t go well for the Allies, it’s hard to recover.  You lose 2 transports and 4 infantry as well.

    This is where I get frustrated with the AI; my rolls will hit the 1/16 bad followed by the computer 1/16 good.  Time after time after time after time.  Again, the game shouldn’t be decided by rolls of the dice.

  • '19 '15 '14

    Big wall, mainly to craykirk, but some thoughts on the transport as well somewhere in there  😄

    @craykirk:

    I agree to a point; the carrier really can’t get away and without the fighters, it’s a sitting duck…  The game seems to be setup wrong in my opinion.  Germany and Japan can decimate the British navy without much fear of loss…

    In the 8+ games that I’ve tried it, only once did I take the East Indies.  Every other time, it was a total loss for Britain and Japan had only a single hit on the battleship in two rounds of combat.  Hard to not get frustrated by those odds.  if the battle doesn’t go well for the Allies, it’s hard to recover.  You lose 2 transports and 4 infantry as well.

    This is where I get frustrated with the AI; my rolls will hit the 1/16 bad followed by the computer 1/16 good.  Time after time after time after time.  Again, the game shouldn’t be decided by rolls of the dice.

    Modelling moves on the standard AI response isn’t going to get you very far against a human being, but there are some general tips I could toss out that might be helpful… and maybe also help demonstrate why it is probably better in the long run to send the transport home rather than against East Indies or New Guinea or anywhere in an attack.

    Just like every 5 man Axis and Allies board at this scale, the map itself and the production distribution in 42.2 heavily favors a KGF strategy. Despite the suggestions I made to you in the other thread about how to destroy the IJN on a pacific orientation when G stacks infantry (noting that its possible to do this via the med, or with air armadas too), the reality is that for your endgame set up, KGF will almost always be a better use of Allied resources than going all Pacific. This is for several reasons, but the main one is that the movement onto Europe is much faster. There is more production/income there, more capitals either to protect or pressure, a faster transit to stack transport/carrier fleets, and a better endgame set up for income parity as Allies. Consider this, from the Allied perspective…

    From sz 5:
    It is possible to get the drop on 7 Axis territories, worth 25 total ipcs. You can shuck 8 ground units per round out of UK itself, and threaten the German capital. From sz 5, you can launch carrier based fighters to or from Moscow in a single move.

    From sz 13 it is possible to get the drop on 8 Axis territories, worth 18 total ipcs. You can shuck 8 ground from UK, and launch 12 ground out of E. US per round. From sz 13 you can threaten Africa and the European underbelly, while deterring a Med entrance from Japan, and you can launch carrier based fighters to and from Caucasus in a single move.

    If at any point Berlin is taken, the Axis game is generally over. It takes a very adept Japanese player to set up a JDTMT that can take Moscow/Caucasus, and can stand up to the Anglo-Americans in Europe, without buckling. It’s not impossible, and it can be done (if for example, Berlin is taken by UK rather than US after an initial botched attack, or if Axis can push the capital trade by a round and take Moscow before Berlin falls, or if the Japanese fleet is massive enough ). In a 2v1 vs Japan, with both Western Allies able to push stacks together, even if Moscow falls to Japan, Allies are still solid. Compare this to the KJF deep endgame, where its 2v1 vs super G and you have to creep around from the back with Super USA, and you start to get a picture of why KGF predominates on pretty much every board. It’s just a better endgame set up overall after Moscow collapse, for Allies, because they will have more money, production, and safe places to drop ships.

    Now considering before, the issue you mentioned elsewhere, about G just stacking infantry as a way to forestall this kind of game… This is a sound strategy from Axis, but its also very hard for Germany to do two things at once. Either they can pressure the center, and threaten the Russian capital, or they can ensure that Europe is secure and that Berlin has no chance of falling in the endgame. At some point this comes down to a decision, whether to launch the line on Moscow and set up for an early knock out on the 1-2 punch, or withdraw the armor from Caucasus in order to defend Europe against Western Amphibious assaults. If you break too soon, before Japan is in position to take over and handle Moscow alone, then you could very well let Russia back into the game, which is massive problems for Axis in the deep endgame. Allies don’t necessarily need to control the center to Win in the long run, but Axis definitely do. It’s one part psychological, since many Allied players will concede after Moscow falls as just an expedient, but if the Allied player doesn’t throw in the towel and plays on, you will see very quickly how critical it is not only to hold the center, but to be able to quicky transition forces after Moscow falls to protect the new lines that develop. So a KGF Europe focused game exploits this.

    Many people and often newer Allied players will make the mistake of using their transported infantry a round to early, trading them for enemy units and lower value territories, when what they should be doing is positioning them rather than trading them. Using Fabian tactics, keeping the ground alive, activating it as a threat (not necessarily attacking with it) and then shifting it ever so craftily such that it threatens Berlin directly.

    What Allies need most is to put a solid drop on Berlin as quickly as possible, since this will pull ground units back off Russia faster than anything else you can do. Along the way you trade in France or the North or the Med just enough to maintain income (especially for UK). Baltic states is probably the single most important territory from the Allies point of view, since it allows you to creep down overland, and max the threat of amphibious on Berlin. What you want most, is to just drop a deep stack of ground somewhere that borders the German capital. We’re talking 20-30 ground or more with air cover in a single spot, so that means you have to build up to it usually over several rounds.

    Sz 5 is the money spot. Make sure you have enough carrier decks and dd fodder to adequately defend the massive transport stack that will end up here. Good rule of thumb is 3 carriers with 6 fighters and a handful of dd to deter all air attacks from the Luftwaffe/Japan on the double hit. Creep on Baltic States first, France is much easier to trade lightly once you’ve got the line on Baltic. UK shouldn’t need more than 4 transports until you are ready to drop Berlin. By the time the Australian transport circumnavigates the globe and returns to England, this is around the time you start pressuring the larger drops on Europe.  😄

    USA on the other hand will need at least a dozen transports or more, to start properly shifting their ground where it needs to be.

    This all seems daunting when Germany is dropping infantry from the outset, but really all you need to get Europe going is the ability to park 12 US ground where they can hit Berlin on amphibious, with enough air in the area to back up the threat. Once you do this, Germany has to immediately pull back, and will have a much harder time trading territories, whether in the West or the East, for fear of losing the capital.And don’t forget the potential advantage of an SBR campaign against Germany. Even one solid round of max damage to the Berlin factory can really screw Axis, from a winning position on Moscow, to one where they have to start redirecting armor and air to defend Berlin. Basically in the long run, if you can do this in Europe and maintain parity on the water with the IJN, you’ll have a strong position in the endgame post Moscow collapse, and USA can focus in pretty much 1 direction, just all Europe. All Pac focus for USA is more challenging, and most players prefer to do a stall and redirect if they go this route, since UK has to buy in Europe regardless, it’s less one dimensional than the all Atlantic game.

    For Japan the most important route in a KGF oriented game is probably the sz 61 to Yunnan shuck. This is the shortest route from Tokyo to Moscow. With 4 transports you can shuck 8 ground to Yunnan every round, overland to Szechwan, then Kazakh. Basically if you can do this three rounds in a row, you’ll have enough fodder to start making the Russians sweat their capital. Just like the W. Allies on Berlin, the trick is not to move your Japanese ground forward too quickly and expose them in poor trades for 1 ipc territories, instead hold them back another round until they are stacked deep enough to defend themselves from Russian counter attacks. Szechwan is the optimal convergence spot for the main advance, and the push comes out of Yunnan via 61. This is to allow you to threaten India and Burma without having to put yourself out of position on Moscow. Later if you can launch into Africa or India uncontested thats great, but the main line is out of sz61 Szech push. Otherwise you leave the back door open to wiley Zhukov moves, with Russians running amock in Asia.

    Because sz61 is such a clutch zone for Japan, most Allies I see will consider hitting the starting Japenese transport here a top priority, more important than the warships in sz37. You can cut the Japanese transport capacity in half during the opening round if you take your hit on sz61, and it can be done at relatively low risk for the payoff. I see most people jet out of Australia towards Brazil. The transport makes a less attractive target if you don’t fully load it. Just nabbing the dude off New Zealand for the ride. But again, I just don’t see the sz37 attack all that much on the bid lately. Even with a sub, or an extra Egypt fighter, it gets pretty dicey. I think the Allies are better served by keeping their forces in tact. You can still give Japan headaches, although full Pacific press is very hard if Japan has all their capital ships. Probably easier to face them in the med, if you don’t want to hammer 37 on a gambit. But KJF Pacific style games seem to always have a gambit of some sort, going all the way back (some risk you take as Allies to open up the game against Japan) and for that I like that sz37 exists. I just don’t use it as much, once the novelty wore off, and when you see that Europe is still the more attractive endgame on this map.

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    Thanks for the short novel.  Very interesting read.  Typically, I will quit or do something which enables the AI to win with the Victory City conditions.  I haven’t really looked at stockpiling a very large navy with a dozen transports menacing the European coast.

  • '17 '16

    @Black_Elk:

    For Japan the most important route in a KGF oriented game is probably the sz 61 to Yunnan shuck. This is the shortest route from Tokyo to Moscow. With 4 transports you can shuck 8 ground to Yunnan every round, overland to Szechwan, then Kazakh. Basically if you can do this three rounds in a row, you’ll have enough fodder to start making the Russians sweat their capital. Just like the W. Allies on Berlin, the trick is not to move your Japanese ground forward too quickly and expose them in poor trades for 1 ipc territories, instead hold them back another round until they are stacked deep enough to defend themselves from Russian counter attacks. Szechwan is the optimal convergence spot for the main advance, and the push comes out of Yunnan via 61. This is to allow you to threaten India and Burma without having to put yourself out of position on Moscow. Later if you can launch into Africa or India uncontested thats great, but the main line is out of sz61 Szech push. Otherwise you leave the back door open to wiley Zhukov moves, with Russians running amock in Asia.

    Because sz61 is such a clutch zone for Japan, most Allies I see will consider hitting the starting Japenese transport here a top priority, more important than the warships in sz37. You can cut the Japanese transport capacity in half during the opening round if you take your hit on sz61, and it can be done at relatively low risk for the payoff. I see most people jet out of Australia towards Brazil. The transport makes a less attractive target if you don’t fully load it. Just nabbing the dude off New Zealand for the ride. But again, I just don’t see the sz37 attack all that much on the bid lately. Even with a sub, or an extra Egypt fighter, it gets pretty dicey. I think the Allies are better served by keeping their forces in tact. You can still give Japan headaches, although full Pacific press is very hard if Japan has all their capital ships. Probably easier to face them in the med, if you don’t want to hammer 37 on a gambit. But KJF Pacific style games seem to always have a gambit of some sort, going all the way back (some risk you take as Allies to open up the game against Japan) and for that I like that sz37 exists. I just don’t use it as much, once the novelty wore off, and when you see that Europe is still the more attractive endgame on this map.

    This specific point should be notice by all players.
    This shortest road is truly a good pincer strategy against Russia.

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