Welcome! If you're a returning member of the forums, please reset your password. If you don't receive an email within minutes, it means your account is listed under another, likely older, email address. Contact webmaster@axisandallies.org for help.

Cheapest but still balance warships and planes? Advanced Shipyard & Aircraft HR


  • 2017 2016

    Still wanting to introduce a balance way of air-to-air direct dogfight, it becomes necessary to reduces their cost, due to the higher attrition rate upon aircrafts.

    Aircrafts are very multipurpose units. They work both on ground and naval combat.
    However, at a too low cost, planes become far more useful than Tanks (A3 D3 Move 2 Cost 6 IPCs) on offense.
    The Tank units is the bottom line to determine the cost for Fighter (A3 D4 Move 4), at 6 IPCs, such Fg unit becomes too powerful compared to Tank.
    So, clearly, such a Fighter unit (A3 D4) cannot be lower than 7 or 8 IPCs.

    This could imply that Strategic Bomber (A4 D1 M6) should be put around 9 or 10 IPCs, since OOB StB is 2 IPCs above Fgs
    On the other side, keeping the same combat values for planes at such low cost, immediately makes them overpowered units compared to warships.

    Assuming temporarily that specific values and prices for these 3 planes, would you consider proportionate and well balance this roster of warships units under these values and cost?

    Fighter A3 D4 M4 Cost 8, hits enemy’s planes on “1” or “2”
    Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3-4 M4 Cost 8, hits enemy’s planes on a “1”, gets A4 or D4 when paired 1:1 to a Fg unit or when there is no enemy’s aircraft.
    Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 Cost 10, on attack, hits enemy’s planes on a “1”, SBR damage: 1D6+2.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33334.msg1276464#msg1276464

    Submarines A2 D1 Cost 5, Surprise Strike, Submerge, No hostile sea-zone, cannot hit airplanes
    Destroyer A2 D2 Cost 7, Anti-Sub Vessel
    Cruiser A3 D3 Cost 9, shore bombard @3
    1942 Carrier A1 D2 Cost 12, 1 hit, carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)
    G40 Carrier A0 D2 Cost 14, 2 hits, carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)
    Battleship A4 D4 Cost 16, 2 hits, shore bombard @4


    Transport A0 D0 Cost 6, no hit, defenseless and taken last

    Transport A0 D1 Cost 8, 1 hit, taken last


    Escort Carrier A0 D1 Cost 9, 1 hit, carry 1 Fg or TcB, Anti-Sub Vessel


    AAA unit should be reduced to 4 IPCs, 1 hit, @1 preemptive against up to 3 planes.
    Or,
    this HRuled Anti-Aircraft Artillery unit acting more like regular A&A unit:
    AAA A0 D0 NCM1 Cost 3, 1 hit, @1 preemptive against up to 1 plane, able to fire against plane each combat round.

    Infantry A1-2 D2 M1 Cost 3
    Mechanized Infantry A1-2 D2 M2 Cost 4
    Artillery A2 D2 M1 Cost 4
    Tank A3 D3 M2 Cost 6

    The two main posts from EnoughSaid and Oztea which are at the origins of my ideas are coming from these threads:
    1940 Cheaper Boats
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34687.msg1339369#msg1339369

    Introducing Tactical Bomber and an evolved Fighter in a 1942 third edition?
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34224.msg1368121#msg1368121

    @Baron:

    @oztea:

    No new air units. But the current ones should be cheaper, and have slightly different rules.

    Fighters 8, bombers 10

    Fighters hits of “1” and the person rolling gets to assign that hit to an air unit if present.
    AA guns should continue to fire every round. 3 shots the first round, 1 shot every round after.

    I agree about the reduced cost.

    What do you think about Fighters (A3 D4 M4 C8) hit enemy’s aircrafts on a “1” or a "2"
    while bombers (A4 D1 M6 C10) hit enemy’s aircrafts on “1” when on attack?
    However, owner’s choose his own casualty amongst plane. (No change from OOB, on this point.)
    Keeping the same numbers on SBR:
    Fg attack or defend @2. Strat Bomber attack @1.
    Wouldn’t that be better that all planes can hit planes somehow ?
    And this will be more balance when limiting A&A 1942 Edition to two types of planes?
    Don’t you think?

    Giving AAA unit a way to fire each combat round is also a manner of making Fgs on attack more vulnerable than Fighter on defense, even if both can directly hit each other with the same number: “1” or “2”.
    I find this more historically accurate.

    In addition, rising up to “2” will make Fgs a better weapon to hit aircraft than AAA unit, as it should be.

    Here is all the unit roster in order by cost:
    AAA A0 D0 NCM1 Cost 3, 1 hit, @1 preemptive against up to 1 plane, able to fire against plane each combat round.
    Infantry A1-2 D2 M1 Cost 3

    Mechanized Infantry A1-2 D2 M2 Cost 4
    Artillery A2 D2 M1 Cost 4

    Submarines A2 D1 Cost 5, Surprise Strike, Submerge, No hostile sea-zone, cannot hit airplanes

    Tank A3 D3 M2 Cost 6, can blitz and gives it to Mechanized Infantry.
    Transport A0 D0 Cost 6, no hit, defenseless and taken last

    Destroyer A2 D2 Cost 7, Anti-Sub Vessel

    Transport A0 D1 Cost 8, 1 hit, taken last
    Fighter A3 D4 M4 Cost 8, hits enemy’s planes on “1” or “2”
    Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3-4 M4 Cost 8, hits enemy’s planes on a “1”, gets A4 or D4 when paired 1:1 to a Fg unit or when there is no enemy’s aircraft.

    Cruiser A3 D3 Cost 9, shore bombard @3
    Escort Carrier A0 D1 Cost 9, 1 hit, carry 1 Fg or TcB, Anti-Sub Vessel

    Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 Cost 10, on attack, hits enemy’s planes on a “1”, SBR damage: 1D6+2.

    1942 Carrier A1 D2 Cost 12, 1 hit, carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)

    G40 Carrier A0 D2 Cost 14, 2 hits, carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)

    Battleship A4 D4 Cost 16, 2 hits, shore bombard @4



  • I can understand this “dogfight” thing, but I dont agree with you that such a rule would make fighters less useful. As it is both, an advantage and a disadvantage of fighters, I think a price of 10 is still appropriate. Air is so versatile, and reducing its costs would lead to people making even more of them.

    The introduction of a dogfight rule should not change any costs at all (except for the cruiser and battleship, both costs should be reduced by 2 anyway)


  • 2017 2016

    @arwaker:

    I can understand this “dogfight” thing, but I dont agree with you that such a rule would make fighters less useful. As it is both, an advantage and a disadvantage of fighters, I think a price of 10 is still appropriate. Air is so versatile, and reducing its costs would lead to people making even more of them.

    The introduction of a dogfight rule should not change any costs at all (except for the cruiser and battleship, both costs should be reduced by 2 anyway)

    I never implied that such a dogfight rule make fighters less useful. By “higher attrition rate”, I meant that there will be more casualties amongst them.
    Simply because of the higher probability of loosing these units compared to OOB in which there are kept 'til the last in ground battle and mostly for Naval ones too.

    The OOB game is not meant to loose expensive planes every corners.
    The odds are much higher with “2” and “1” rolls for Fgs and “1” rolls for Bombers.
    Each combat round there is a risk to lose them.
    That’s why I thought it is necessary to somehow increase the IPCs available (simply by getting more for your bucks) to buy the usual costlier units (warships and planes).

    It is also intended to increase the number of planes in battle since they will be very useful, but still easily lost also.


  • 2017 2016

    @arwaker:

    I can understand this “dogfight” thing, but I dont agree with you that such a rule would make fighters less useful. As it is both, an advantage and a disadvantage of fighters, I think a price of 10 is still appropriate. Air is so versatile, and reducing its costs would lead to people making even more of them.

    The introduction of a dogfight rule should not change any costs at all (except for the cruiser and battleship, both costs should be reduced by 2 anyway)

    Maybe, the introduction of dogfight rule makes planes more powerful and should not require a lesser cost for them.
    But, it is clear that these dogfights will increase the number of planes’ loss.
    And to provide some additional IPCs, it can still be required to put forward the reduced cost for warships.
    The savings made upon boats will be used to buy new planes at the OOB cost : 10 IPCs / 12 IPCs.

    Black_Elk seems to think that OOB aircrafts, even with such reduced cost for warships, shouldn’t be put at a lower price.
    @Black_Elk:

    If you lowered the cost of aircraft, I would understand the logic of reducing the cost of aaaguns.

    But I think I’m struggling to understand why the reduction in cost for ships requires a reduction in cost for aircraft?

    If the only issue is cruiser to fighter parity, then I don’t follow. The fighters cost at 10 is justified by its movement and the fact that it can attack/defend on land. No one seems to have a problem purchasing tons of aircraft in this game, it’s the ships that need the cost reduction in my view. The air is already very potent

    N.B. This quote never consider any special combat ability against planes for aircrafts.


  • 2017 2016 2015

    Very interesting Baron. I think you’re definitely on to something.
    Haven’t really had time to “crunch” into it fully yet, but wanted to ask a related question.

    I see you have the escort carrier at 9 ipc’s. If you kept oob global prices what would you put it at? I like the idea of it being anti-sub as well. 🙂


  • 2017 2016

    G40 Escort Carrier A0 D1 M2, 1 hit, ASV, is put around 9 or 10 IPCs.
    I prefer 10 IPCs simply because with OOB Fighter it cost a well rounded 20 IPCs.

    1942.2 Escort Carrier A1 D1 M2, 1 hit can also be put from 10 or 11 IPCs, even 12 IPCs. I still prefer 10 IPCs.


  • 2017 2016 2015

    right on
    I really like the idea but have never played with it
    seems as if it would create more possibilities


  • 2017 2016

    True. Sometimes when you already have planes waiting, you prefer to put an Escort Carrier at sea, for the ASV and the versatility you get with the plane. Otherwise, you get a better offense/defense against Subs right away buying Destroyers.
    5 DDs A2 D2 C8 = A10 D10 Cost 40
    2 CVEs A0 D1 C10 + 2 Fgs A3 D4 C10 = A6 D10 Cost 40

    So in herself an Escort Carrier isn’t the best against Submarines compared to Destroyers.

    From my play-test, it is seems that Submarines need better survivability against this option for 2 kinds of ASV units.

    • Reduced cost is one way to get it.

    • But I also reduced somehow the blocker capacity of Anti-Sub Vessel, requiring 1:1 basis, not 1 DD blocking an unlimited number of Subs (Der Kuenstler’s idea).

    • Also, it can no more interfere with the Subs submerge besides that it cannot occur during a Surprise strike phase, since ASV still block Sub’s surprise strike.(KNP7765’s idea)

    • In addition, aircrafts has no more need for an ASV to hit an unsubmerge Submarine.

    In this thread there is more details:
    Simplifying units interactions of Transports, Submarines, Destroyers & planes
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34290.msg1320853#msg1320853

    In short, you get it here:
    @Baron:

    Submarines A2 D1 M2 Cost 5
    Surprise Strike,
    Submerge (instead of rolling to hit a target)
    No hostile sea-zone (except when ASV is present),
    Cannot hit airplanes,
    Must be taken as the last casualty amongst warships, (said otherwise, a submarine cannot be taken as casualty as long as the owner has another warship type elligible in combat SZ)
    Allowed to retreat separately from other units, (said otherwise, other units can retreat while the submarines stay in combat zone to finish off the enemy’s ships.)
    Can hit transport before warships (even when there is other escorting warships, but it is the owner’s choice to pick or not a transport as casualty).
    (Added to recreate opportunity for an Atlantic Battle in 1942.2 and also to reduce the effectiveness of Submarine against Destroyer and costlier warships.)
    Can be hit by planes, doesn’t require an ASV.

    Destroyer A2 D2 M2 Cost 7
    Anti-Sub Vessel on 1 DD:1 Sub basis, block surprise strike but cannot cancel Sub submerge (which mostly happen for defending subs in regular phase after the attacker rolls).

    Transport A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit, taken as last casualty,
    Exception: can be pick as a casualty anytime if an enemy’s submarine get a hit (owner’s choice to pick or not transport as casualty, as usual).

    (Escort Carrier A0 D1 M2 Cost 9, 1 hit
    carry 1 Fg or TcB, Anti-Sub Vessel, working the same as a Destroyer), added for completeness

    It is not the end of it, since it really needs playtesting.
    Maybe to not block the Submerge capacity is going too far under 7 IPCs’s DD and 5 IPC’s Subs. IDK.


  • 2017 2016 2015

    yea I’m a little concerned this would boost the defensive values of fleets even more. I also added DK’s cruiser gets one AA shot which is another defensive bonus.
    I wonder how much super subs would counter that? I’m trying not to tweak things price wise at the moment but I may eventually incorporate your entire cost structure.

    Good explanation on the destroyers vs EC’s. Having a fighter that hits at 4 could be appealing though.

    Good stuff Baron


  • 2017 2016

    @barney:

    yea I’m a little concerned this would boost the defensive values of fleets even more. I also added DK’s cruiser gets one AA shot which is another defensive bonus.
    I wonder how much super subs would counter that? I’m trying not to tweak things price wise at the moment but I may eventually incorporate your entire cost structure.

    I think Escort Carrier is costlier and not better on defense compare to a full regular Carrier.
    It cost 10 IPCs for 1 hit while the 16 IPCs CV gives 2 hits.
    As a counter-part, it is less vulnerable against Submarines than Carrier. But beware, if you have no place to land around and attacking Subs get to hit CVE, you will also loose a plane.

    But it is true that it is also a defensive unit. It cannot be otherwise, if we want to respect A&A units profile.

    However, a single TcB or Fighter bring a better combat support in amphibious assault than  a one time Shore bombardment.
    @barney:

    Good stuff Baron

    Thanks.


  • 2017 2016

    Here is the statistics to determine the outcome of Strategic Bombing Raid according to these numbers:
    Strategic Bomber Attack @1 Cost 10 IPCs Damage on IC: 1D6+2
    Fighter Attack @2 Defend @2 Cost 8 IPCs

    I provided a comparison with OOB G40, you will see that with the reduced cost SBR are still viable even if the Fighters have doubled their defense factor from D1 to D2.

    From the sum, I can say that a raid with 1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D2 interceptor gives even odds (near 0 IPCs damage/run).
    This new HR cost show also that escorting bomber with 1 Fg A2 gives better odds against 2 Fgs D2 than OOB G40 SBR rules.
    It also show that it is better to escort the bomber with 1 Fg rather than launching 2 bombers against 2 Fgs D2.

    IMO, this much better reflect the historical air supremacy role of Fighter units over Bombers.
    (Something totally left aside within OOB G40 SBR rules, in which all planes get @1.)

    1942.2 HR_SBR : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor with G40 damage D6+2 and reduced StB cost
    Sum: 4.583 - 1.667 = +2.916 IPCs damage/StB

    OOB G40 SBR: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor/ damage 1D6+2      
    Sum: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run


    1942.2 HR: 1 StB A1 Cost 10 IPCs against 1 intercepting Fg D2, Cost 8 IPCs
    Sum: 4.39 - 4.444 = - 0.054 IPCs damage/StB

    OOB G40: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1 / damage 1D6+2
    Sum: + 4.845 - 3.666 = + 1.179 IPC. damage/SBR run


    1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2, damage 1D6+2
    Sum: 3.371 - 6.296 = - 2.925 IPCs damage/StB

    OOB G40: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
    Sum: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR run


    1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
    Sum: 8.286 - 5.540 = + 2.746 IPCs damage/StB

    OOB G40: 1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
    Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR run


    1942.2 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 regular cost 10 IPCs doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2 Cost 8 IPCs, damage: 1D6+2
    Sum: +8.777 - 8.889 = -0.112 IPCs damage/SBR run

    OOB G40: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2/StB
    Sum: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR run


    1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
    Sum: +8.139 - 5.334 = + 2.805 IPCs damage/StB

    OOB G40: 1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D1
    Sum: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR run


    1942.2 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 regular Cost 10 doing SBR Damage 1D6+2 against 1 intercepting Fgs D2 Cost 8
    Sum: +10.039 - 6.111 = + 3.928 IPCs damage/SBR run

    OOB G40: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D1
    Sum: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR run

    In this post, you can compare with OOB 1942.2 SBR and Triple A SBR for 1942:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33184.msg1311369#msg1311369

    Here is the detailed calculations:

    OOB 1942.2: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
    5/6 StB survived * 3.5 IPCs = 2.9 IPCs
    1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs
    Sum: 2.9 - 2 = +.9 IPC damage/StB

    OOB G1940: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
    5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs = 4.583 IPCs
    1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs

    Sum: 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/StB


    1942.2 HR_SBR : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor with increase damage and reduced StB cost
    5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs = 4.583 IPCs
    1/6 StB killed *10 IPCs = -1.667 IPCs
    Sum: 4.583 - 1.667 = +2.916 IPCs damage/StB


    1942.2 HR: 1 StB A1 Cost 10 IPCs against 1 intercepting Fg D2, Cost 8 IPCs

    StB roll /Fg roll / AAA roll

    126= 12/216 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg killed: 5.56%
    141= 4/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed: 1.85%
    145= 20/216 no casualty vs 1 Fg killed: 9.26%

    526= 60/216 StB killed by Fg: 27.78%
    541= 20/216 StB killed by AAA: 9.26%
    545= 100/216 both survived: 46.30%

    Results:
    Bombing: 120/216= 55.56% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= + 5.5 IPCs) = + 3.056 IPCs
    36/216= 16.67% killing Fg *+8 IPCs = + 1.334 IPC
    96/216= 44.44% StB killed *-10 IPCs = - 4.444 IPCs

    Sum: + 4.39 - 4.444 = - 0.054 IPCs damage/StB


    1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2, damage 1D6+2

    StB roll / interceptors Fgs roll / AAA roll = odds   casualties

    1/620/366/6=  120/1296    1 StB killed by Fgs vs 1 Fg : 5.09%
    1/616/361/6 = 16/1296   1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 1.93%
    1/616/365/6 = 80/1296  no casualty  vs 1 Fg : 9.65%

    5/620/366/6 = 600/1296    1 StB killed by Fgs vs no casualty : 25.46%
    5/616/361/6 = 80/1296    1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 9.65%
    5/616/365/6 = 400/1296   no casualty at all : 48.22%

    Results:
    Bombard on IC: 480/1296= 37.04% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 2.037 IPCs
    Killing 1 Fg: 216/1296= 16.67% +8 IPCs =  + 1.334 IPCs
    StB killed: 816/1296= 62.96%
    -10 IPCs =     - 6.296 IPCs

    Sum: + 3.371 - 6.296 = - 2.925 IPCs damage/StB


    1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2

    StB+Fg rolls / interceptors Fgs roll / AAA roll = odds   casualties

    2/364/366/6   = 48/7776       1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs : .62%
    2/3616/361/6 = 32/7776      1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : .41%
    2/3616/365/6 = 160/7776      1 Fg vs 2 Fgs : 2.06%
    2/3616/361/6 = 32/7776      1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : .41%
    2/3616/365/6 = 160/7776     no casualty vs 2 Fgs : 2.06%

    14/364/366/6 = 336/7776       1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg : 4.32%
    14/3616/361/6= 224/7776    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 2.88%
    14/3616/365/6 = 1120/7776   1 Fg vs 1 Fg : 14.4%
    14/3616/361/6 = 224/7776   1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 2.88%
    14/3616/365/6 = 1120/7776  no casualty  vs 1 Fg : 14.4%

    20/361/366/6   = 120/7776   1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty : 1.54%
    20/3610/361/6 = 200/7776    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 2.57%
    20/3610/365/6 = 1000/7776  1 Fg vs no casualty : 12.86%
    20/3625/361/6 = 500/7776    1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 6.43%
    20/3625/365/6 = 2500/7776   no casualty at all : 32.15%

    Results:
    Bombard on IC: 6060/7776= 77.93% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 4.286 IPCs
    Killing 2 Fgs: 432/7776= 5.56%+16 IPCs =   + 0.889 IPC
    Killing 1 Fg: 3024/7776= 38.89% +8 IPCs =  + 3.111 IPCs
    Fg killed: 2280/7776= 29.32%
    -8 IPCs =       - 2.346 IPCs
    StB killed: 756/7776= 9.72%
    -10 IPCs =       - 0.972 IPCs
    StB & Fg killed: 960/7776= 12.35%*-18 IPCs = - 2.222 IPCs

    Sum: + 8.286 - 5.540 = + 2.746 IPCs damage/StB


    1942.2 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 regular cost 10 IPCs doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2 Cost 8 IPCs, damage: 1D6+2

    StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

    1/364/3636/36 = 144/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs: 0.309%
    1/3616/366/36 = 96/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : 0.206%
    1/3616/3630/36 = 480/46656 1 StB killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs : 1.029%
    1/3616/361/36 = 16/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : 0.034%
    1/3616/3610/36 = 160/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : 0.343%
    1/3616/3625/36 = 400/46656 no casualty vs 2 Fgs : 0.857%

    10/364/3636/36 = 1440/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs 1 Fg: 3.086%
    10/3616/366/36 = 960/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 2.058%
    10/3616/3630/36 = 4800/46656 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg : 10.288%
    10/3616/361/36= 160/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 0.343%
    10/3616/3610/36= 1600/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 3.429%
    10/3616/3625/36 = 4000/46656 no casualty vs 1 Fg : 8.573%

    25/364/3636/36 = 3600/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty : 7.716%
    25/3616/366/36 = 2400/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 5.144%
    25/3616/3630/36 = 12000/46656 1 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty : 25.72%
    25/3616/361/36 = 400/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs no casualty : 0.857%
    25/3616/3610/36 = 4000/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 8.573%
    25/3616/3625/36 = 10000/46656 no casualty at all : 21.433%

    Results:
    2x Bombard on IC: 14400/46656= 30.864% * ((6+16) IPCs)/2= +11 IPCs) = + 3.395 IPCs
    1x Bombard on IC: 23040/46656= 49.383% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = +2.716 IPCs
    Killing 2 Fgs: 1296/46656= 2.778%+16 IPCs = + 0.444 IPC
    Killing 1 Fg: 12960/46656= 27.778% +8 IPCs = + 2.222 IPCs
    2 StBs killed: 9216/46656= 19.753%
    -20 IPCs = - 3.951 IPCs
    1 StB killed: 23040/46656= 49.383%
    -10 IPCs = - 4.938 IPCs

    Sum: +8.777 - 8.889 = -0.112 IPCs damage/SBR run


    1942.2 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 regular Cost 10 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2 Cost 8
    Damage 1D6+2
    StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

    11/362/66/36 = 132/7776 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
    11/362/630/36 = 660/7776 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
    11/364/61/36 = 44/7776 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
    11/364/610/36 = 440/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
    11/364/625/36 = 1100/7776 no casualty vs 1 Fg

    25/362/66/36 = 300/7776 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
    25/362/630/36 = 1500/7776 1 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty
    25/364/61/36 = 100/7776 2 StBs killed by AAA vs no casualty
    25/364/610/36 = 1000/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
    25/364/625/36 = 2500/7776 no casualty at all

    Results:
    2x Bombard on IC: 3600/7776= 46.296% * ((6+16) IPCs)/2= +11 IPCs) = + 5.093 IPCs
    1x Bombard on IC: 3600/7776= 49.296% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 2.546 IPCs
    Killing 1 Fg: 2332/7776= 29.999% +8 IPCs = + 2.400 IPCs
    2 StBs killed: 576/7776= 7.407%
    -20 IPCs = - 1.481 IPCs
    1 StB killed: 3600/7776= 46.296%*-10 IPCs = - 4.630 IPCs

    Sum: +10.039 - 6.111 = + 3.928 IPCs damage/SBR run


    1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2

    StB+Fg rolls / interceptors Fgs roll / AAA roll = odds   casualties

    16/362/61/6 = 32/1296    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
    16/362/65/6 = 160/1296   1 Fg vs 1 Fg
    16/364/61/6 = 64/1296   1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
    16/364/65/6 = 320/1296  no casualty  vs 1 Fg

    20/362/61/6 = 40/1296    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
    20/362/65/6 = 200/1296  1 Fg vs no casualty
    20/364/61/6 = 80/1296    1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
    20/364/65/6 = 400/1296   no casualty at all

    Results:
    Bombard on IC: 1080/1296= 83.333% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 4.583 IPCs
    Killing 1 Fg: 576/1296= 44.44% +8 IPCs =  +3.556 IPCs
    Fg killed: 432/1296= 33.333%
    -8 IPCs =     -2.667 IPCs
    StB killed: 216/1296= 1.667%-10 IPCs =    -1.667 IPCs
    StB & Fg killed: 72/1296= 5.556%
    -18 IPCs = -1.000 IPCs

    Sum: + 8.139 - 5.334 = + 2.805 IPCs damage/StB


  • 2017 2016

    @Baron:

    To give everyone an opportunity to make his own mind about which SBR rules is his prefered one, and their impact and odds, here is a complete summary of all the calc results about various SBR rules with different combination of units:

    G1940 SBR:
    1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
    Sum: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run

    1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1 damage: 1D6+2
    Sum: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR run

    1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
    Sum: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR run

    1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
    Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR run

    2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
    Sum: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR run

    1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
    Sum: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR run

    2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
    Sum: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR run


    Triple A SBR for 1942.2:
    1 StB doing SBR without interceptor (damage 1D6)
    Sum: +2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPC damage/SBR run

    1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1
    Sum: +3.69 - 3.667 = + 0.023 IPC damage/SBR run

    1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 / damage 1D6
    Sum: + 2.025 - 5.056 = - 3.031 IPCs damage/SBR run

    1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
    Sum: +6.155 - 5.33 = + 0.825 IPC damage/SBR run

    2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
    Sum: +8.195 - 7.334 = + 0.861 IPC damage/SBR run

    1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
    Sum: + 5.973 - 3.667 = + 2.306 IPCs damage/SBR run

    2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
    Sum: +8.403 - 5.666 = + 2.737 IPCs damage/StB


    OOB SBR rules for 1942.2:
    1 StB doing SBR without interceptor damage: 1D6
    Sum: + 2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPC damage/SBR run

    1 StB A1 first strike against 1 Fg D2
    Sum: + 3.8 - 4.8 = - 1 IPC damage/SBR run

    1 StB A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2 / damage 1D6
    Sum: + 3.071 - 7.185 = - 4.114 IPC. damage/SBR run

    1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
    Sum: + 6.018 - 7.555 = - 1.537 IPCs damage/SBR run

    2 StBs A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
    Sum: +7.547 - 9.556 = - 2.009 IPCs damage/SBR run

    1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
    Sum: + 5.973 - 5.159 = + 0.814 IPCs damage/SBR run

    2 StBs A1 first strike doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
    Sum: + 8.214 - 6.315 = + 1.899 IPCs damage/SBR run


    1942.2 SBR House Rules :
    1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, damage 1D6+2
    Sum: + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run

    1 StB A1 regular vs 1 Fg D2
    Sum: + 4.723 - 5.333 = - 0.61 IPC. damage/SBR run

    1 StB A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
    Sum: +3.704 - 7.556 = - 3.852 IPCs damage/SBR run

    1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike (due to combined arms with Fg escort) doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
    Sum: + 7.554 - 7.564 = - 0.01 IPC damage/SBR run

    2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
    Sum: +9.445 - 10.667 = - 1.222 IPCs damage/SBR run

    1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike (due to combined arms with Fg escort) doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
    Sum: + 7.639 - 5.159 = + 2.48 IPCs damage/SBR run

    2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
    Sum: +10.639 - 7.334 = + 3.304 IPCs damage/SBR run


    2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
    With optionnal limitation rule: in air-to-air combat, bombers cannot get more rolls than the numbers of defending Fgs interceptors.
    StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

    Sum: +9.306 - 7.334 = + 1.972 IPCs damage/SBR run

    Here is a link to NightBombing SBR various approach and stats:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33329.msg1280598#msg1280598


  • 2017 2016

    @barney:

    yea I’m a little concerned this would boost the defensive values of fleets even more. I also added DK’s cruiser gets one AA shot which is another defensive bonus.
    I wonder how much super subs would counter that? I’m trying not to tweak things price wise at the moment but I may eventually incorporate your entire cost structure.

    Good explanation on the destroyers vs EC’s. Having a fighter that hits at 4 could be appealing though.

    Good stuff Baron

    If I introduced AAA Naval capacity at such low cost (Advanced Shipyard) it would be in a combined arms bonus and not for a single unit.
    Maybe just up to 2 AAA preemptive shots against 2 planes when 1 Battleship and 1 Cruiser are protecting a Fleet Carrier, and only this kind of unit, not any Escort Carrier.
    Each have their specific mission, Fleet Carrier have a more consistent AA batteries and CAP (Carrier Air Patrol) while Escort Carrier groups were assign Anti-Sub Mission.
    So, to get Naval AAA buy all the three warships: Battleship, Cruiser, Aircraft (Fleet) Carrier.
    In counterpart, these costlier warships units would still be vulnerable against Subs while Escort Carriers and Destroyers will be vulnerable against planes but much able to defend against Submarines.

    @Black_Elk:

    @Baron:

    I’m more inclined to treat it exactly as an AAA unit: @1 against up to three planes.
    After all, it is a known concept in ground combat adapted to Naval Battle and it requires 3 warships type, the number 3 is obviously on the board.
    IC’s AAA seems too powerful and unrealistic: a defense @1 against infinite number of planes.
    Defending Carriers are already much better than offensive ones.
    Anti-Air is providing an additional defense.

    @Black_Elk:

    Well the anti air for battlegroup concept seems cool. I think the hope was that we could find a combined arms that just had units pairing 1:1. That one requires a pairing of 3 different units 1:1:1, but seems like it could encourage Cruiser purchases.

    Not only Cruiser but also Battleship buying incentive.
    Another reason to not give IC’s AAA capacity: you want to defend against more than 3 planes, buy another Cruiser and BB to join another Carrier.
    I’m pretty sure it can change some buying from Destroyers and Subs to Cruiser and Battleship.

    It still cost 12+16+20= at least 48 IPCs (68 with 2 Fgs) to get this additional defensive abilities.

    Maybe this concept can be simply extended to each combo of BB+Cruiser gives 1 AAA capacity as long as there is a Carrier to protect.

    So 2 BBs + 2 Cruisers + 1 Carrrier will provides an AAA against up to 6 planes.

    All this!  😄

    I think something along these lines could potentially bring both Cruisers and Battleships back into the mix as a purchasing consideration, and is relatively simple.

    Of the combined arms proposed thus far, this one doesn’t bust the opening round combats. It would increase the swing on fleet defense making all out air assaults against a stacked battle group more risky. Right now the all air option is pretty powerful vs navies, this would give at least some way to counter that, but only at the cost of more expensive warship units, and somewhat diminished flexibility in other ways, since you have to keep the ships together to get the boost.
    I still think a different bombardment bonus or marine concept could work for cruisers and battleships, or a maneuverability bonus for cruisers specifically, but both of those would surely have an influence on the opening balance.


Log in to reply
 

Welcome to the new forums! For security and technical reasons, we did not migrate your password. Therefore to get started, please reset your password. You may use your email address or username. Please note that your username is not your display name.

If you're having problems, please send an email to webmaster@axisandallies.org

T-shirts, Hats, and More

Suggested Topics

  • 6
  • 23
  • 2
  • 3
  • 7
  • 17
  • 2
  • 25
I Will Never Grow Up Games

28
Online

13.1k
Users

33.3k
Topics

1.3m
Posts