Bid Question



  • What should the axis bid be if you are playing without VC’s?



  • Sorry to hijack thread but how do you play without VC?  Always looking for alternate setup and rules.

    Thanks!


  • 2017 '16 '15

    I think you just play until one side concedes.
    Check out house rules for alternate games. I recommend Ozteas 41.

    Yes sorry for the Hi jack Roc



  • @Jester09:

    Sorry to hijack thread but how do you play without VC?  Always looking for alternate setup and rules.

    Thanks!

    No worries. I recommend trying it without VC’s. The game is a lot more fun for allies this way :).



  • Online play only, can’t be done for table top games using a 10-12 hour limit, and no continuation dates on the dining room table.



  • @Young:

    Online play only, can’t be done for table top games using a 10-12 hour limit, and no continuation dates on the dining room table.

    That’s true. I guess that is why the VC thing was implemented.


  • Customizer

    Wasn’t it pretty much established that if you took the victory city win out of the game, then the Axis would not win? Assuming players of roughly even talent on both sides, the Axis would take a lot of territory and Germany would probably take out Russia, but as time goes by the Allies, especially the US, would simply be able to build up too much and overwhelm the Axis.

    What’s more, if you are discounting victory cities, then the US could really concentrate on pounding Germany and almost not even worry about the Pacific. Even if Japan gets Sydney and Honolulu, it doesn’t matter because there is no VC win. As long as the US keeps a big enough pile of defense on the west coast so Japan can’t get into the US proper, the Allies can let Japan romp around the Pacific while grinding Germany to dust.



  • On a slightly different side, I’ve been contemplating an economic victory condition… There are 265 IPCs available on all territories not including strict neutrals. Therefore, half the board could be considered 132.5 IPCs or 133 IPCs for a % win. So at the end of the night, when the game board must be packed up… the side that has the most IPCs (133 or more) wins.

    But to avoid hijacking RM’s thread please discuss here…

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35134.msg1366829#msg1366829



  • Interesting question! I haven’t ever played G40 without VCs, so this is purely armchair thoughts. (Assuming normal bid restrictions)

    1. KJF would probably be my game plan as the Allies, so I would likely send my bid to the Pacific as Axis.

    2. Japan would want to DOW as late as possible, I think. J1/J2 make more sense as a rush to VC victory to my mind.

    3. Placed units would probably be ground troops and/or transports to ensure a China elimination J4.

    4. On the other hand, a few subs in the Atlantic/Med would be pretty effective. Not sure if the Italians would benefit more from sea or ground units.

    So basically I have no idea what I’m talking about. :lol: I’d probably start out by giving a roughly average allied bid (14-18ish) to the axis and just playing a game or two.

    I’d be very curious to hear a report from someone who has tried this.



  • @Young:

    Online play only, can’t be done for table top games using a 10-12 hour limit, and no continuation dates on the dining room table.

    I dont see any issues with the table for this, just start on friday evening, continue saturnday during the day and finish somewhere sunday evening.



  • Not everyone can swing a multi-day game, though 😕



  • @TheMethuselah:

    Interesting question! I haven’t ever played G40 without VCs, so this is purely armchair thoughts. (Assuming normal bid restrictions)

    1. KJF would probably be my game plan as the Allies, so I would likely send my bid to the Pacific as Axis.

    2. Japan would want to DOW as late as possible, I think. J1/J2 make more sense as a rush to VC victory to my mind.

    3. Placed units would probably be ground troops and/or transports to ensure a China elimination J4.

    4. On the other hand, a few subs in the Atlantic/Med would be pretty effective. Not sure if the Italians would benefit more from sea or ground units.

    So basically I have no idea what I’m talking about. :lol: I’d probably start out by giving a roughly average allied bid (14-18ish) to the axis and just playing a game or two.

    I’d be very curious to hear a report from someone who has tried this.

    Have not tried it but i would go for a KGF in this scenario, germany and italy have the potential to become really big and can use can openers later in the game, japan as a single power can become big but not over 100 ipcs and is verry volnerable against multiple allies attacking it.
    Germany and Italy can get 50ipcs just in bonus money vs japan 20, and i dont even want to think about what russia will be making if they are allowed to take all germany areas east of berlin.

    If you play non VC war the game will be won based on how much money you are making each turn, it does not mather if the other side has more units if they cant kill you quick enough you will overtake them just like what happend in the real war. Japan started out with more carriers and battleships after pearl but ended up losing because of production power.



  • @ShadowHAwk:

    Have not tried it but i would go for a KGF in this scenario, germany and italy have the potential to become really big and can use can openers later in the game, japan as a single power can become big but not over 100 ipcs and is verry volnerable against multiple allies attacking it.
    Germany and Italy can get 50ipcs just in bonus money vs japan 20, and i dont even want to think about what russia will be making if they are allowed to take all germany areas east of berlin.

    Good points. I think we agree that an extreme single-theatre beatdown by the Allies is the way to go, though. I feel like you can neuter Japan a bit faster than you can neuter Germany/Italy, but the end result would be sweeter NO-wise.



  • Not sure about the neutering thing.
    US can build 6 units in the atlantic and only 3 in the pacific. And the pacific fleet can be in the atlantic turn 2. So with a G3/J3 round 3 you will have gibraltar and a threat to nearly all of germany.



  • Which will deliver victory to the axis in the Pacific…

    I have to admit that I recently have come to agree with Cow’s assertion that KGF is impossible if Japan knows what it is doing, but a JF might work.



  • @ShadowHAwk:

    Not sure about the neutering thing.
    US can build 6 units in the atlantic and only 3 in the pacific. And the pacific fleet can be in the atlantic turn 2. So with a G3/J3 round 3 you will have gibraltar and a threat to nearly all of germany.

    Yea, but Germany and italy can easily turtle their west coasts.  It takes a lot of material for US to do anything of worth in Europe.



  • They cant protect everything and afrika and attack russia at the same time. Something got to give in.

    Italy can be neutered to nothingness with a few subs and a few troops in afrika.

    The alternative is trying to neuter japan first, if germany gets full reign with italy breaking it will be hard if they make over 100 and the UK will be left with 15 income.



  • @ShadowHAwk:

    They cant protect everything and afrika and attack russia at the same time. Something got to give in.

    Italy can be neutered to nothingness with a few subs and a few troops in afrika.

    The alternative is trying to neuter japan first, if germany gets full reign with italy breaking it will be hard if they make over 100 and the UK will be left with 15 income.

    Africa sure, but neutering italy does not do anything when germany is crushing russia and has a large garrison ready to deal with an allied push out of the coastal beachheads.



  • Well neutering is the first step and only takes a few resources,
    Germany needs to spend a lot of resources to counter you attack remember you can attack 7 zones with a fleet off gibraltar. And all units spend on defending or being a counter against this will help russia because they are not there.

    If germany has to spend 2 much vs the US in the west russia breaks out again and then germany is screwed.

    The alternative to KGF is KJF, which means you will have a germany making well over 120 italy in the 50s and only US and anzac to counter them. Even with 100 ipcs from the US they will lose that battle.



  • @ShadowHAwk:

    Well neutering is the first step and only takes a few resources,
    Germany needs to spend a lot of resources to counter you attack remember you can attack 7 zones with a fleet off gibraltar. And all units spend on defending or being a counter against this will help russia because they are not there.

    If germany has to spend 2 much vs the US in the west russia breaks out again and then germany is screwed.

    The alternative to KGF is KJF, which means you will have a germany making well over 120 italy in the 50s and only US and anzac to counter them. Even with 100 ipcs from the US they will lose that battle.

    The thing is, Germany can be in bryansk by turn 5 and have moscow in full turtle mode. If the Axis play for it, the US can’t get to gibralter until turn 4.  Germany can just stack west G and maybe berlin too if they threaten taking denmark with the us, which can be stopped by a blocker in 110.  Germany can get enough to counter any move into paris without sacrificing very much against russia.  The US alone will need like 10 transports worth of units to make it a problem.  By round 5, Germany should be making in the 70s-80s with volg & cauc, unless he feels like moscow is guaranteed in the next round.  The real deciding factor is how much stuff from india is coming over to europe.  This can affect whether egypt holds and the status in the middle east.  After India dies turn 4-5, you will need to worry about Japan knocking on the back door and potentially landing in africa to help out.



  • @ghr2:

    @ShadowHAwk:

    Well neutering is the first step and only takes a few resources,
    Germany needs to spend a lot of resources to counter you attack remember you can attack 7 zones with a fleet off gibraltar. And all units spend on defending or being a counter against this will help russia because they are not there.

    If germany has to spend 2 much vs the US in the west russia breaks out again and then germany is screwed.

    The alternative to KGF is KJF, which means you will have a germany making well over 120 italy in the 50s and only US and anzac to counter them. Even with 100 ipcs from the US they will lose that battle.

    The thing is, Germany can be in bryansk by turn 5 and have moscow in full turtle mode. If the Axis play for it, the US can’t get to gibralter until turn 4.  Germany can just stack west G and maybe berlin too if they threaten taking denmark with the us, which can be stopped by a blocker in 110.  Germany can get enough to counter any move into paris without sacrificing very much against russia.  The US alone will need like 10 transports worth of units to make it a problem.  By round 5, Germany should be making in the 70s-80s with volg & cauc, unless he feels like moscow is guaranteed in the next round.  The real deciding factor is how much stuff from india is coming over to europe.  This can affect whether egypt holds and the status in the middle east.  After India dies turn 4-5, you will need to worry about Japan knocking on the back door and potentially landing in africa to help out.

    US1 you get 2 carriers and 2 destoyers just to prevent stupid subs. and you can move the pac fleet to panama, US2 combine the fleet and buy transporst+stuff. US3-> gibraltar.
    Only way you are not allowed there is if japan does not DOW early but if they dont then india will be making 25 for a few rounds india with 30+ inf on it is not nice to take down.

    What is there to prevent me from taking south italy? or norway and from there move up to help russia on the north. I take away 17 ipc from germany just by taking norway-finland and karelia.
    Nothing is really foolproof but imo going for japan first isnt the way to do it, japan is limited in money and tactical area a lot more then germany and italy are.


  • 2019 '15 '14

    No VCs means center crush probably is even more critical. Egypt doesn’t matter quite as much in Europe if a VC win is out, so Allies might not press as hard on Africa. Bid of 8 might be fun for a start. Get a pair of mech and to try an cinch up France in force and then rush Moscow? Or bid a transport? Transport bids can be pretty entertaining. Seems like Japan would have the most use for a transport, though I suppose G could use one in the Baltic to give the Allies headaches. I’d try 8 first before going much higher, just to check for breakers



  • @ShadowHAwk:

    @ghr2:

    @ShadowHAwk:

    Well neutering is the first step and only takes a few resources,
    Germany needs to spend a lot of resources to counter you attack remember you can attack 7 zones with a fleet off gibraltar. And all units spend on defending or being a counter against this will help russia because they are not there.

    If germany has to spend 2 much vs the US in the west russia breaks out again and then germany is screwed.

    The alternative to KGF is KJF, which means you will have a germany making well over 120 italy in the 50s and only US and anzac to counter them. Even with 100 ipcs from the US they will lose that battle.

    The thing is, Germany can be in bryansk by turn 5 and have moscow in full turtle mode. If the Axis play for it, the US can’t get to gibralter until turn 4.  Germany can just stack west G and maybe berlin too if they threaten taking denmark with the us, which can be stopped by a blocker in 110.  Germany can get enough to counter any move into paris without sacrificing very much against russia.  The US alone will need like 10 transports worth of units to make it a problem.  By round 5, Germany should be making in the 70s-80s with volg & cauc, unless he feels like moscow is guaranteed in the next round.  The real deciding factor is how much stuff from india is coming over to europe.  This can affect whether egypt holds and the status in the middle east.  After India dies turn 4-5, you will need to worry about Japan knocking on the back door and potentially landing in africa to help out.

    US1 you get 2 carriers and 2 destoyers just to prevent stupid subs. and you can move the pac fleet to panama, US2 combine the fleet and buy transporst+stuff. US3-> gibraltar.
    Only way you are not allowed there is if japan does not DOW early but if they dont then india will be making 25 for a few rounds india with 30+ inf on it is not nice to take down.

    What is there to prevent me from taking south italy? or norway and from there move up to help russia on the north. I take away 17 ipc from germany just by taking norway-finland and karelia.
    Nothing is really foolproof but imo going for japan first isnt the way to do it, japan is limited in money and tactical area a lot more then germany and italy are.

    India would be making that much only if it was not going hard against italy.  The advantage of keeping america stuck on the east coast in a KGF scenario is pretty big.  Japan can take his sweet time since the US pulled out of the pac.  It really comes down to the personal preference of the Japan player whether to rush india or to buy G/I another round.

    Depends, is italy intentionally leaving it empty?  Or was italy smart enough to see the KGF and build a constant stream of inf?  This of course would not count any german fast or air support.  If the allies really want norway, Germany will be hard pressed to contest it, but Germany could lock the US down in norway if it goes there heavy by dropping a destroyer on it’s turns in 112.  Since Norway is within air range, and since Germany usually has a lot of units in theater, the allies would need to either over commit to it, or russia needs to move a decent amount of units north, which would make the fall of moscow very likely.

    Japan’s big advantage is that the US can’t get close to anything of importance to Japan without Japan being able to cockblock it or wipe it out.  This is especially true in a KGF scenario.  This does not mean that a KJF scenario would be easy as cake for Japan, just a skilled Japan player can deadzone a lot of key seazones and delay the US fleet a while.

    This all depends on how hard of a KGF or KJF do the allies want to perform.



  • I feel like the allies have to go KGF. The allies also have to declare war on the true neutrals. Playing it out I see that it is a lot closer than I thought it would be. The key for the axis is holding ukraine as Germany. Germany can’t kill Russia because US would then easily take Berlin, but Germany can keep Russia back for a while and wait for Japan to come up. The extra money and men the axis get from the allies attacking the true neutrals helps a little as well.



  • Has anyone tried playing this with no VC’s yet and just a total domination game?


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