Rules question



  • Ok let’s say that the UK made an unprovoked declaration of war against Japan. Could the US move (on noncombat) into sea zone 54, (next to Queensland), with Anzac ships in that sea zone as well, and if Japan attacked that area would it be considered an attack on the US?

    Thanks


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Moderator

    No. Only Anzac and UK are at war with Japan.
    The Japanese could Attack the UK/Anzac fleet off Queensland and the US would simply sit and watch it happen.
    Japan and the US cannot fight if not at war and UK or Anzac declaring war on Japan does not constitute the US joining. Japan and the US would share the Sea zone.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015

    Another rule question. Lets say 1 bomber attacks 1 destroyer and 3 submarines. The bomber score 1 hit and the destroyer miss. Can the defender choose not to submerge the subs and hence choose a sub as a causalty?


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Moderator

    No. A Bomber can only hit a Sub, if it has a DD from its own (the attacking power’s) nation in the SZ too. Not an Ally’s.
    The Subs and Bomber in this scenario cannot hit each other.



  • @oysteilo:

    Another rule question. Lets say 1 bomber attacks 1 destroyer and 3 submarines. The bomber score 1 hit and the destroyer miss. Can the defender choose not to submerge the subs and hence choose a sub as a causalty?

    @wittmann:

    No. A Bomber can only hit a Sub, if it has a DD from its own (the attacking power’s) nation in the SZ too. Not an Ally’s.
    The Subs and Bomber in this scenario cannot hit each other.

    However, if the defending power was somehow able to scramble a single fighter from an airbase on an adjacent territory into the battle scenario described by the oysteilo… then the defender could then use a sub as a casualty from hits by the attacking bomber.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Official Answers TripleA Moderator

    @Young:

    @oysteilo:

    Another rule question. Lets say 1 bomber attacks 1 destroyer and 3 submarines. The bomber score 1 hit and the destroyer miss. Can the defender choose not to submerge the subs and hence choose a sub as a causalty?

    @wittmann:

    No. A Bomber can only hit a Sub, if it has a DD from its own (the attacking power’s) nation in the SZ too. Not an Ally’s.
    The Subs and Bomber in this scenario cannot hit each other.

    However, if the defending power was somehow able to scramble a single fighter from an airbase on an adjacent territory into the battle scenario described by the oysteilo… then the defender could then use a sub as a casualty from hits by the attacking bomber.

    Why that? The attacking bomber still has no DD support that would enable him to hit a sub.
    The defender could choose to take out the fighter instead of the DD - but never a sub.
    Or am I missing something?



  • on page 20 of my Europe rule book it says…

    Specific to Sea Battles: In both steps 3 and 4,
    submarines that fired in step 2 can’t fire again during the
    same combat round. If there is an enemy destroyer in the
    battle, submarines fire in step 3 or 4 rather than step 2.
    Remember that in sea battles hits from air units can’t be assigned to submarines unless there is a destroyer present
    that is friendly to the air units in the battle
    , and hits
    can only be assigned to transports if there are no other
    eligible units.

    so I’ve got a problem with the words “friendly to the air units in the battle” as it doesn’t specify wether the rules were meant to read “friendly to the attacking air units”.

    The way it reads in the rule book (to me anyways) is if a strategic bomber was attacking 1 destroyer and 1 sub, and the defender decided to scramble 1 fighter to defend the sea zone… than the defender could use the submarine as a casualty if the attacking Strategic Bomber hits.

    Am I wrong?



  • Yes, you are wrong. The intent of the rule is that subs can only be hit by air units if a destroyer that is friendly to the attacking air units is in the sz. Why would a DD that is friendly to the sub or subs help the opposing air unit locate can kill said sub(s)?


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Official Answers TripleA Moderator

    @Young:

    on page 20 of my Europe rule book it says…

    so I’ve got a problem with the words “friendly to the air units in the battle” as it doesn’t specify wether the rules were meant to read “friendly to the attacking air units”.

    The way it reads in the rule book (to me anyways) is if a strategic bomber was attacking 1 destroyer and 1 sub, and the defender decided to scramble 1 fighter to defend the sea zone… than the defender could use the submarine as a casualty if the attacking Strategic Bomber hits.

    Am I wrong?

    OK, I understand what you mean.

    We are talking about the “Can’t be hit by Air Units” issue of submarines.

    @rulebook:

    Can’t Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending,
    hits scored by air units can’t be assigned to submarines
    unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units
    in the battle.

    That means to me:

    If the attacker has a destroyer supporting his fighter’s attack,
    a hit scored by the attacker’s fighter could be assigned to a defender’s submarine.

    If the defender has a destroyer supporting his (scrambled) fighter’s defense,
    a hit scored by the (scrambled) fighter could be assigned to an attacker’s submarine
    (if there is one).

    _I think the rule does NOT say:

    If the defender has a destroyer supporting his (scrambled) fighter’s defense,
    a hit scored by the attacker’s fighter - without DD support - could be assigned
    to a defender’s submarine._


  • '14 Customizer

    Attacking or Defending actually it doesn’t really matter. The side that is “Rolling” must have a DD for their planes to hit subs. This happens in SZ 111 a lot when Germany attacks with the Luftwaffe and subs. If UK scrambles a fighter and loses their DD in the first round and the battle continues to another round then UK cannot hit the subs with their plane anymore because their DD is gone and they force Germany to lose a plane instead of a sub if they roll a hit with their plane.



  • There are 2 parts to this issue…

    1. Can I attack subs with air units?

    and…

    2. Can I use subs as caualties against air units?

    I think we all understand that attacking air units can’t hit subs unless there is an attacking destroyer present. However, when it comes to the second question, the rules state that…

    Can’t Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending,
    hits scored by air units can’t be assigned to submarines
    unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units
    in the battle.

    So if a player wants to use subs as casualties and save their surface warships from attacking air units, then all they need is 1 defending destroyer and 1 defending air unit in order to remove defending subs from attacking air units.

    The rule above supports this, and I can’t go to an opponent with an argument about what the rule intended, so I need to know for sure and where I can find it writen.



  • If he attacks with Air only only your surface ships can be hit and fight back, the subs just watch the fireworks.

    So he can only hit your expensive surface fleet and you can only hit his air units.

    If he would attack with air and subs your subs can only hit his subs while your ships can hit both planes and ships.
    His airunits and subs can all hit your ships.

    However he must assign as many hits as possible, so first assign the hits from the subs and then from the surface ships.



  • Thanks Shadow,

    I think I figured it out… The key words here are…

    Can’t Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending,
    hits scored by air units can’t be assigned to submarines
    unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units
    in the battle.

    …so the air units in battle are refering to the air units that are doing the hitting… right?



  • @Young:

    I think we all understand that attacking air units can’t hit subs unless there is an attacking destroyer present. However, when it comes to the second question, the rules state that…

    Can’t Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending,
    hits scored by air units can’t be assigned to submarines
    unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units
    in the battle.

    These two mentions of “air units” are referencing the same air units– i.e. the ones that scored hits against the side with subs in the sea zone need to have a destroyer present for the other side to be able to assign those hit(s) to said subs. For air units to be able to hit subs at all, whether you want to or not, you must have a destroyer also fighting on your side. In an attack, only your own destroyer would be participating in the battle, so a friendly one in the zone would NOT let you hit subs. If you were defending, either your or a friendly destroyer would grant your planes the capability to hit subs.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Official Answers TripleA Moderator

    @Young:

    Can’t Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending,
    hits scored by air units can’t be assigned to submarines
    unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units
    in the battle.

    …so the air units in battle are refering to the air units that are doing the hitting… right?

    Correct!



  • @cyanight:

    Attacking or Defending actually it doesn’t really matter. The side that is “Rolling” must have a DD for their planes to hit subs. This happens in SZ 111 a lot when Germany attacks with the Luftwaffe and subs. If UK scrambles a fighter and loses their DD in the first round and the battle continues to another round then UK cannot hit the subs with their plane anymore because their DD is gone and they force Germany to lose a plane instead of a sub if they roll a hit with their plane.

    Same as in SZ110, which has no DD to begin with.
    If UK scrambles, all hits that the scramblers score have to be German aircraft. Unless ofc Germany brought its BB into that battle… Reason I guess why Germany wants to extremely overpower this battle. I know -I- am ;-).



  • It could have been worded better IMO.


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