Stack Amur on R1?


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15

    Why should Russia stack/not stack Amur?
    It is awfully quiet in here these days……so I figured I will contribute……or make people contribute  🙂
    To me it is not obvious that Russia should not stack Amur on R1. I assume a R1 DOW on Japan. Yes those 18 dudes and 2 AA will die. I also assume Japan will have to do the usual attacks on Yunnan and Hunan with the maximum number of planes reaching there. This limits the number of planes going to Amur and the expected result is about 1 aircraft and 10 Japanese ground units lost and 6 Russian dudes popping up in Mongolia. I realize that most people think this is not a good idea as those Russian dudes are supposed to end up in Moscow. In most of my games, Moscow is toast on G6 and definitely on G7. What good do these guys do in the middle of nowhere when Moscow has fallen?
    I think Japan has two options to take out Amur:

    1. Just sending in all ground units from Korea and Manchuria and all available planes
    2. In addition to 1, two loaded transports, 2 battleships and a cruiser to zc 9 to help the attack. In this case the loss might be limited to 7 or 8 Japanese ground units. Is a J2 DOW on the allies realistic with this? I think not. So it will be J3 or J4

    If japan choses 1 to save transports for south Asia then there are 0,1 or 2 Japanese ground units in Amur and with the Mongolian troops, effective Japanese blitzing is not that easy. If Japan choses option 2 then there are limited reinforcements for the Yunnan campaign in J2, possibly allowing Yunnan to be stacked by the allies turn 2/turn 3. With a bunch of British and Chinese dudes in addition to 3 Anzac planes, maybe 2 UK planes and the armor/mech inf from Russia, it is impossible for Japan to clear this out.
    Bottom line, why is any of this bad for the allies? Or what am I missing here (trying to improve my game!)


  • '15

    I don’t know if I like it for the Allies.

    As Japan I would bring the 12 units from Korea and Manchuria, 8 planes from Japan and SZ 6, the four planes from Manchuria, the fighter from Korea and the one from Okinawa.  I’d also transport an inf and tank from Japan and take the bombardment hits with a BB and C.  Kiangsi hits Hunan and I’d hit Yunan with the standard 4 units, fighter, tac, 2 strategics.  The battle calculator says Japan should lose 8 inf (already took off one fighter from the AA guns).  Virtually all of the planes can make it back to Jehol, ensuring Yunan is still reachable turn 2.

    Japan is now in fine shape.  Turn 2 they send an infantry to Siberia and the remaining 3 or 4 units to Buryatia (including a blitz through Sakha of course) and they just roll from there.  Those 6 Russia inf aren’t much threat (and if Japan wants to be aggressive they can hit Buyant-Uhaa turn one with the Jehol units and the mech from Manchuria.  Taking 1 inf from the Amur battle has no effect).  Russia is no longer a threat in the far East and Japan is making an extra 6-7 IPC’s as early as turn 3 (while Russia is losing that much).

    So how does this affect the conflict in South Asia?  Imo, it doesn’t really.  You can still hit Yunan round two with most of the Japanese planes; Japan can build a complex round 1 in Shangtung to compensate for the lost men up north and reinforce Kwangsi with men from Japan (or even forgo the Hunan attack and send those 4 troops to Kwangsi as well).  Hell, if you want to get crazy Japan could build a complex in Shangtung and Shanghai then follow it up with 3 arm, 3 mech turn 2 and completely lock down the area.

    My plan slows Japan down for the first couple rounds maybe and definitely prevents a JDOW1 or even a JDOW2, but I believe it’s a win for them in the long run.  I only like the Amur stack for the allies if America is committed to a KJF.



  • If you stack amur with all 18 inf, then Japan can take it quite cost effectively.  He rids his north flank of a serious threat, and has easy access to the soviet rear.  He can spend the next turn setting up for a good J3 attack on the allies.  The only thing stacking amur gains you is Japan out of position for a J2 and maybe a plane kill.



  • Just a quick note, if you do decide as Japan to attack Amur, do not attack any part of Mongolia at the same time. Doing so counts as attacking a neutral country and will activate the neutrals for the allies.


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    Thanks for bringing up an interesting topic, oysteilo

    I agree with the other guys so far.  I think Russia should save the infantry stack to harass Japan when Japan’s airforce and ground units have moved south a bit.  It’s a bigger distraction in later rounds than on J1.

    Nippon pointed out the air can still threaten Yunnan, BUT, and a big but: They won’t threaten Sze.  I still think the strongest move Japan can make J1 is to have almost all air trained on Sze to either scare the Chinese back away from Yunnan, or to deliver on the threat and pound the Chinese stack.  So I think this is the biggest merit to a daring stack of Amur R1 - it should help the Chinese enough that that Chinese can get going, and that is a very good thing for the Allies.

    So it’s a good topic.  I would stop short of saying it’s never a good idea.


  • '16 '15 '10

    Agreed, good topic.

    The reason I haven’t experimented with it so far is concerns about being diced….  Perhaps I’ll try it in a low luck game soon and see how it plays out.

    Whether or not its wise depends, to a large extent, on what Germany did and what Germany appears to be planning.



  • I think the quiet time is because it is this certain time of the year where people spend a lot of time with their families ;-).

    About the question: good answers already!
    I only like to add that Japan can very easily rid Russia of those 20 Siberians and even does not need a lot of air to do so. 2STR + 1TAC + 1FTR. The rest can still go down to get dirty on China + UK.

    What Russia achieves against Japan is that a J3 crush against India is unlikely if Japan minces the Siberians. However, Japan could also go defensive against the Siberians and still go crushing China + India without a sweat.
    So in short Russia achieves nothing of any real value against Japan. It is very easy for Japan to modify its plans a little, so that J1/J2/J3/J4 are all still viable, solid strategies.

    Against Germany however, I’d call the effects crucial.
    With air from the UK, Moscow should hold GE6 and GE7, even with max investments from Germany to crush it. RU7 then injects 20 extra units in Moscow to make it impossible for Germany to grab it for another 3 turns at least, but indefinately if the allies have built up a massive invasion force in Western Europe. With the latter in place, Germany cannot take Moscow without allowing the allies to invade Europe in force…

    If Moscow Always falls GE6/GE7 in your games, you should work on its defense! Else it is indeed no use to try to retreat the Siberians to Moscow. IMHO, the only time it is certain that Moscow falls is when the allies focus a LOT on Japan and basically ignore Germany for the first ~6 turns of the game (without a threat in the west Moscow is indeed doomed). And even then I think Russia is better of harassing Japan from Buryatia than sacrificing the Siberians all at once in Amur.


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    Quality post, Clerc


  • Customizer

    Something I have seen with Russia is to leave the 6 guys in Amur then take the other 12 plus the 2 AA and move them back to Yenisey. Also, if Japan attacks and the Mongolians change to Russian, try to get them up with the other 12 guys and 2 AA guns.
    The 6 guys left in Amur keeps Japan from just walking into Russian territories for free. They HAVE to commit a decent force and they are sure to take 2 or 3 losses of their own. Then while Japan is spreading out to take all those far eastern Soviet territories, the remaining eastern Russians stack up at Yenisey along with any Mongolians that can get there.
    By the time the Japanese land force gets there, they will most likely be outnumbers by the Russians, especially with one or two still out taking the Soviet Far East. Also, while Japan can provide many planes to help the ground forces, those planes will have to be committed to attacking the Russians which means they are not south bothering the Chinese or British.
    Of course, Japan could also put an IC in Korea or Manchuria and send mechs and tanks to supplement the existing ground forces, but that also means less money to spend down south against China or less warships to fend off the US fleet. Either way, I think this could be a great inconvenience to Japan.
    Of course, Japan could simply stop there which kind of stymies Russia’s plan. While Japan’s ground forces there would probably be outnumbered, there would still be enough to make an attack by Russia almost suicide (remember, infantry only attack @ 1). If Germany is pressing Russia, they can’t afford to send extra units to help those infantry attack because they need everything to defend Moscow.
    As for Japan, those ground forces don’t really take away from any of their other advances so they will do fine just sitting there to keep the Russians from retaking their territories. Japan has an extra 5-6 IPCs under their belt, which is 5-6 IPCs less for Russia which will make it that much harder defending against the Germans, and the Japanese planes can go on to China and SE Asia.



  • Thanks Gamerman!

    Couple of things I forgot but yeah, bottom line is that the Siberians can make a very big difference in more than one theatre as long as they exist. They can even be very effective as help in defending Caïro if Moscow falls but wherever their ultimate deployment is, it requires planning a long long time ahead.



  • Russia can send troops into China in order to disrupt Japan.
    Even Cow do not declear war on allies r1 with Japan if Russia support China.
    I do not claim this is optimal play, but against a weak or unlucky German r1 (or mabye against a strong Japan player) its a good move.

    Here is how you do it:

    R1 Buy:

    • Buy 1-3mec, the rest inf and art
    • DOW Japan
    • Send starting mec and tnk to Sikang and Kazakhstan
    • Fly planes to Suiyuyan
      from there they can attack Amur, Chahar and Yunnan, or simply fly back to Moscow or Caucasus.
    • Place mec in Stalingrad
      You may actually retreat far east USSR units towards Moscow… Depends on your strategy

    R2 move the units to Yunnan or Shensi.
    Collect your China NO r2?
    Send Stalingrad mec to China

    R3.
    Now China may can-open for your mobile USSR troops so that they may target stacks that would normaly be safe. This creates all kinds of different headaches for Japan.

    Pros:
    Unbalance solid Japan player
    Protect India and China
    You may send the troops back to Russia, if you need to
    Cons:
    BEWARE: All USSR units away from the motherland is an invite to Germany rush!
    Greater need for allied help in Moscow.



  • Hi all!  Our group just started playing Global and in my VAST experience of 2 games  :-D, I have left the 18 stack in Amur for 2 turns and once Japan is a bit deep into China just start moving it down the coast.  Our Japan player typically pushes a medium force thru China towards Moscow to help the Germans and this has caused some headaches for them.  He has killed it both games but it has forced him to pull troops/planes back and/or commit invasion forces from Japan to deal with it.  Also combined with the mega stack from China in the south, Ive found it pretty distracting.  :evil:

    I also like the above the post about just pushing them straight for Moscow.  It seems so far away, we hadn’t really considered it as an option but as you say, if Germany hasnt sacked Moscow by then, it could be a huge boost.  Playing again on Friday…will try that.

    Thanks

    Jester



  • @ItIsILeClerc:

    I think the quiet time is because it is this certain time of the year where people spend a lot of time with their families ;-).

    About the question: good answers already!
    I only like to add that Japan can very easily rid Russia of those 20 Siberians and even does not need a lot of air to do so. 2STR + 1TAC + 1FTR. The rest can still go down to get dirty on China + UK.

    What Russia achieves against Japan is that a J3 crush against India is unlikely if Japan minces the Siberians. However, Japan could also go defensive against the Siberians and still go crushing China + India without a sweat.
    So in short Russia achieves nothing of any real value against Japan. It is very easy for Japan to modify its plans a little, so that J1/J2/J3/J4 are all still viable, solid strategies.

    Against Germany however, I’d call the effects crucial.
    With air from the UK, Moscow should hold GE6 and GE7, even with max investments from Germany to crush it. RU7 then injects 20 extra units in Moscow to make it impossible for Germany to grab it for another 3 turns at least, but indefinately if the allies have built up a massive invasion force in Western Europe. With the latter in place, Germany cannot take Moscow without allowing the allies to invade Europe in force…

    If Moscow Always falls GE6/GE7 in your games, you should work on its defense! Else it is indeed no use to try to retreat the Siberians to Moscow. IMHO, the only time it is certain that Moscow falls is when the allies focus a LOT on Japan and basically ignore Germany for the first ~6 turns of the game (without a threat in the west Moscow is indeed doomed). And even then I think Russia is better of harassing Japan from Buryatia than sacrificing the Siberians all at once in Amur.

    If Germany has gone for Economic gains, then it becomes very hard for the allies to push him back unless US can afford to ignore Japan for a while.


  • '16 '15 '10

    One rule clarification I was disappointed with was when it was announced was that if Russia takes Korea, then that nullifies the Mongolia rules in Axis favor.  Historically, did the Mongolians care whether Russia controlled Port Arthur et al?  I think allowing Russia to trade Korea with Japan without losing the potential Mongolian alliance is better than the alternative.

    Anyway, this presents a bit of a problem for a R1 Amur stack.  Namely, what do you do as Russia if Japan decides to ignore you?  If you go ahead and push into Manchuria or Korea, then Japan can invade Siberia without worrying about Mongolian reprisals.


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    Russians need only ATTACK Korea.  They don’t have to take.

    Having Mongolia in play can be just as good for Japan as Russia.  Units can cross from Russia to China freely, and you can duck out of North China at any time and be immune to the Chinese


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