At the suggestion of Narvik, I made this thread a poll.
The original thread is here:
Many ways of figurating air-to-air combat in general combat
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34535.msg1330307#msg1330307
There is many ways to introduce some kind of air combat in which aircrafts can directly hit enemy’s planes instead of applying casualties to ground or naval units.
I would like to present some choices available with links to much detailed threads and develop the very last one (a newborn).
1) Inside the regular combat, any Fighters (& even Tactical Bombers, and sometimes Strategic Bombers) rolling “1” destroy an opponent planes, if any is present.
Seldom, defending Fighters on a roll of “2” or less can destroy 1 attacking plane.
However, this one special treatment to “1” or even “2” is outside the actual A&A game mechanics.
Here is one of my simplified HR for 1942.2 (Strategic Bombers and Fighters only):
A simplified dogfight and SBR House Rule for 1942 2nd Edition
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34227.msg1317357#msg1317357
Here is another such example of a simplified way of treating planes combat, this time for G40 (Fgs, TcBs and StBs)
Develop on a post inside the thread Considering 8 IPC fighters… in which Fighter hit planes A/D on “1” & “2” roll
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32285.msg1350684#msg1350684
A more develop system based on the previous idea above.
Fighter A3 D4 M4 C8 hits planes A/D on “1” & “2” roll
Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3-4 M4 C8 hits planes A/D on “1”
Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 C10 hits planes A “1” roll, damage: D6+2
Cheapest but still balance warships and planes? Advanced Shipyard & Aircraft HR
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35171.msg1368446#msg1368446
Inspired by this one, you get a complete development of the units roster:
Baron Munchhausen’s Complete Roster for play-testing with 2-planes carrier
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35173.msg1368558#msg1368558
2) Inside the regular combat, a specific unit: Fighter get the ability to pick an opponent plane as casualty upon a hit, if there is any plane.
Usually, Fighter unit has a weaker value and lower cost than OOB.
Some values and cost: Fg A1 D2 C6-8 / Fg A1 first strike D2 C6-7 / Fg A2 D2 C8-7 or even A2 D2 C6
Rethinking Air units simulating historical air-to-air combat: 2 planes carrier
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34667.0
But it was necessary for Naval operation balance to have a Carrier unit able to hold 3 Fgs, or 2 Fgs & 1 TcB or 2 TcBs.
Adapting A&A1914 rules for G40
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32599.msg1259497#msg1259497
Here is one example of an adapted HR for 1942.2 (including TcBs):
Introducing Tactical Bomber and an evolved Fighter unit in a third edition?
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34224.msg1317032#msg1317032
However, it is now possible to have a Carrier unit able to hold 3 units, whether Fighter or Tactical Bomber: 3 Fgs, 2 Fgs & 1 TcB, 1 Fg & 2 TcBs or 3 TcBs
Alternate 3 planes Carrier, Air oriented for G40 or 1942.2 with TacBs
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34676.0
The same idea but better refined by some play-testing:
Fg A2 D2-3 C7 hits planes first / TcB A2-3-4 D3 M4 C8
Re: Alternate 3 planes Carrier, Air oriented for G40 or 1942.2 with TacBs
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34676.msg1367806#msg1367806
In this post, the warships are near the cost of “Advanced Shipyard” Tech (Subs cost 5 IPCs) and you get a complete roster of usual units and some houserule units around a Fighter A2 D2 M4 Cost 6:
Baron Munchhausen’s G40HR Roster for 3 planes carrier & 6 IPCs 1914 Fighter
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35222.msg1370798#msg1370798
3) A single initial air-to-air combat phase before the regular combat. (Some do it for 1 combat cycle, others do it until all planes are destroyed on 1 side, inspired by 1914.)
Each plane receives a distinctive value different and usually lower from regular combat and often inspired by the SBR dogfight.
Some combat values: Fg A1 or A2, D1 or D2 / TcB A1 or A0, D1 or D0 / StB A1 or A0, D0, cost can change from -1 or -2 IPCs of OOB.
Here is three examples of an HR, 2 with a single cycle and the other going for a total air destruction of one side:
Alternate Air combat in OOB G40 with 2 planes Carrier, 1942.1 and 1942.2
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33229.msg1262270#msg1262270
Dogfighting in 1914 version of G40 & SBR escort and interception
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33205.msg1260685#msg1260685
Rethinking Air Units
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34502.msg1328857#msg1328857
@Narvik:
Fighter cost 8, A1 D2
Tac B. cost 10, A3 D4
S. Bomber cost 12, A4 D1Before naval and land combat can start, there should be an dogfight phase, that continue until one side retreats his planes or are free of planes, like there is in the A&A 1914 game.
There are two ways to solve this air to air combat phase. The OOB way
Attacking aircrafts roll 1
Intercepting fighters roll 2 or less
in this case defending Tacs and Bombers should not roll, just be sittin ducks and either be taken as casualties or survive to next phase.The other way is to let all planes keep their set combat values for simplicity, even in the dog fight. In that case, Bombers will be stronger than fighters in dog fight, which is very historical incorrect.
4) Every combat round, there is an air-to-air combat phase (when there is planes on both sides) before each regular combat phase.
Similar to the Subs special Surprise Strike phase in which only Subs can fire when there is no Destroyer on the other side.
Each other rounds keeps the same 2 phases until one side have no more plane.
By giving specific and slightly lower combat values in each phase, surviving planes can roll in both phases in each combat round.
The first post where I introduced this idea:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34502.msg1329263#msg1329263
The more defined is in this post:
Re: Rethinking Air Units
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34502.msg1329725#msg1329725
Reduced cost: 8 IPCs for Fighters and 10 IPCs for Tactical Bombers which can compensate for the higher attrition rate.
Keeps 12 IPCs for Strategic bombers.
Only attacker can retreat his planes while continuing combat with ground units.
Some options of various combat values:
1- Air phase combat value / regular combat value, Fg units have the same combat values in both phases.
StB A0 D0 / A4 D1
TcB A1 D1 / A3-4 D3-4 get +1 A/D when there is no air combat
Fg A1 D2 / A1 D2
2- Air phase combat value / regular combat value
StB A1 D0 / A4 D1
TcB A1 D1 / A3-4 D3-4 get +1 A/D when there is no air combat
Fg A1 D2 / A2 D2
The new Fighter has the same full strength as the OOB when their is an aerial combat.
And when there is only regular combat, it gets an acceptable combat value A2 D2.
This is the same value as a Destroyer units.
3- Air phase based on G40 SBR / regular combat value
StB A1 D0 / A4 D1
TcB A1 D0 / A3-4 D3 get +1 A when there is no air combat
Fg A1 D1 / A2 D3
4- Air phase loosely based on 1942.2 SBR / regular combat value
StB A1 D0 / A4 D1
TcB A1 D1 / A3-4 D3 get +1 A when there is no air combat
Fg A1 First Strike D2 / A2 D2
5- A combined arms for Fighters / regular combat value with Air superiority bonus for TcB
StB A1 D0 / A4 D1
TcB A1 D1 / A3-4 D3-4 get +1 A/D when there is no air combat
Fg A1-2 D2 / A2 D2 get +1 A in air combat phase when paired 1:1 with TcB or with StB (Fg is playing an escort role, in which bombers are bait).
QUESTION**: Which types of aerial combat amongst those 4 do you feel better fit in A&A mechanics?**
If you have a complete post describing a detailed HR aerial combat system, you are very welcome.
I will put a link and a describing comments.
Imperious Leader described a different ones in which there is a roughly sketched HR, I believe (but not sure) planes have a complete independent battle before regular combat without plane on one side, and so is part of the third category:
@Imperious:
Most of these too complicated…
Old ideas here. have planes on planes fight independently round by round at aerial combat values:
Fighters 3
Fighter-Bombers 2
Bombers 1allow either side to retreat in full after any combat round ( at least one must occur)
Then if one side has planes, they may fire. FB if it rolls a one, can select target ( so it rolls a one, it can select carrier, or tank, etc)
No other changes unless you want to change every unit, and that’s stupid. You cant change just air units and figure the game will not go out of balance.
Bumped for curiosity.
