UK Transport shuck from South Africa



  • I’m playing a group game Sunday in which I’m the UK, and I want to try a system where I use two transports to move 2 units from South Africa every round so that I may avoid building a factory in Egypt to concentrate more on a Europe landing. Has anyone tryed this before?


  • 2017

    The biggest problem with a direct to Cairo route would be the possibility of German air threatening SZ81 (particularly if Italy is able to hold Alexandria, Transjordan, or Syria, or if Germany buys any extra strategic bombers).

    A South Africa/Kenya shuck is fairly secure but slower than just building mechs.



  • Also be aware that German bombers from W. Germany can land in Italian-owned Ethiopia, Italian Somaliland, or British Somaliland.

    But as Wheatbeer said, it’s a noticeable hassle to keep those transports safe from German air (especially because this means your fleet isn’t denying the clear Med Italian NO), and building mech isn’t that much more expensive.

    I use the 1 turn-by-transport more to set up a counter to Egypt if it’s not secured.


  • '15

    I like building mechs and tanks every round there.  Pretty much no downside.  Takes an extra round to get there, but they hit harder when they do.



  • @Shin:

    I like building mechs and tanks every round there.  Pretty much no downside.  Takes an extra round to get there, but they hit harder when they do.

    Think I might go that route instead, gotta see what Germany does, but it seems risky putting transports in harms way and not even taking away Italy’s NO.



  • @Young:

    @Shin:

    I like building mechs and tanks every round there.�  Pretty much no downside.�  Takes an extra round to get there, but they hit harder when they do.

    Think I might go that route instead, gotta see what Germany does, but it seems risky putting transports in harms way and not even taking away Italy’s NO.

    You could to taranto without the carrier, the move is legal as you can move the carrier in non combat. And take figs as losses so the carrier can move through the channel into the red sea.
    Add 2 fighters that you start with in the med on round 2 and the destroyer and you got a decent defence. It aint bulletproof but a full carrier + destroyer should be enough to deter 1-2 bombers from getting smart.  2 transports chucking stuff is better then building arm-mech as it saves you 3 to spend somewhere else. If you are not moving fast int-art is just as good as mech-arm but cheaper.


  • 2019 '15 '14

    I think a repeating or tandem transport launch is probably better here than a shuck.

    Traditionally the shuck is when you use 1 movement point to pick up units with your transport, and the 2nd movement point to return to the sea zone where your transport began, to then unload the units. You use the same transport every round, always returning to the same sz you started out in.  The best example of the Shuck would be in Classic: UK to Eastern Canada, then back to UK to unload. Or Karelia to UK and back to Karelia to unload. Or Algeria to Eastern Canada, then back to Algeria to unload etc. And if you can move troops both ‘into’ and ‘out of’ the same territory, during the same round, with a “double shuck” or a “multiple shuck”, then you’ve successfully set up a “Conveyor Belt” with your transports!
    Woot!

    So in Classic, Revised etc, you can shuck out of Eastern Canada, but never out of Eastern United States, since there’s no where to go from E.US in one move that does you any good. Similarly you can shuck out of UK, or Japan, but only to territories within one sz space away. Otherwise its not a shuck, its just a normal transport move.

    In contrast to the shuck, is the tandem transport launch or the repeating launch, where you send transports out in waves, and then have them return home, only to be replaced by the next wave, and repeat this over a series of rounds. It can be faster in the short term, but its also twice as expensive, and uses only half your transport capacity per round. The basic difference in idea is this, a shuck has the transport loading/unloading units every-single-round. A launch has the transport loading/unloading units every-other-round, and repeatedly trading out positions with another transport to which it is paired.

    This is why the shuck, was so popular, because it maxed out your transport capacity to the fullest, making the most of your initial investment and allowing you to hold a sea zone in force without exposing your transports. Basically you can think of it as “shuck” to get the units, then “shuck” back to the safe sea zone, where all your naval units are stacked up in a massive pile. The “shuck, shuck” move established the original pattern for the KGF game, which has since become ubiquitous in later A&A maps.

    But in G40 harbors mess with the shuck, because now you have 3 movement points to work with instead of 2. Gah! What are we to do? :evil:

    –----

    Let check it out in G40 with SA as the example:
    In this case the simple shuck gets you from the coast of Kenya sz 72, to South Africa, and then back again to unload, but you’d be giving up the extra movement bonus from the harbor. However, by using a second transport in tandem with the first, you could instead make a repeating launch move. This is what I think YG is driving at. Here you can go from SA to Cairo, and then 3 moves back the following round. It costs more ipcs in the initial investment, and one transport (the returning empty transport) is always stalled by a round, but the cumulative movement advantage is better since you’d get the bonus move 3 spaces in both directions each round.

    The hang up in either case, whether shuck or repeating launch, is that the minor in SA produces 3 units. So unless you upgrade to a major (and who has the cash for that?), you will always either have 1 unit left behind, or 1 empty space on a transport. I think Mech is probably faster for the cost in the long run, but that carrier from the Med through the Red Sea is a cool play. Basically makes the cruiser in 91 a bit more important, since you know you’d want all air on Taranto, if foregoing the carrier absorption. Saves 16 tuv though,  if you can keep the carrier alive, which is always a plus  😄

    This might be a semantic pedantic thing, but just for clarity, so we know the plan… Which of these where you thinking?

    A. The shuck play: the transport starts in sz 72, moves to sz 71 to pick up units out of the South Africa factory, and then moves back to sz 72 to unload them into Kenya. Repeat.

    B. The tandem launch play: transport starts in sz 71 picks up units from South Africa, then moves all the way to sz 81 to unload the units. Purchase another Transport and drop it in sz 71. On the following round these transports “launch” to change positions, the loaded one going from sz 71 to sz 81 Cairo, the unloaded one returning from sz 81 to sz 71 South Africa, to launch again the following round. Repeat.


    I think the latter probably has the better chance of success. The problem with a factory buy, is not so much that its expensive, but rather that it paints a bright red target on Cairo, and forces the Axis to throw their full weight at the problem or risk losing the whole game. So a factory buy is like a gambit. A transport on the other hand is a bit more unassuming. 2 transports slightly less so, but if you can split it up over a couple rounds, you might be able to sneak into it.

    One thing that’s kind of weird about transports in this case though, is that you really get a better value out of the transport capacity if you buy artillery rather than mech or tanks (because you want to get the maximum movement advantage for the cheaperst most effective ground unit, for the money you just spent on transports.) The logic here being, that mech and tanks can already blitz, so why bother transporting mech? This gets you a fairly sweet buy if you can set it up. 14 ipcs in transports, then you can drop…

    1 mech, 1 inf, 1 artillery, for a total cost 11 ipcs a round.
    The Mech blitzes north, the infantry and artillery coast to Cairo on the transport. The mech will always be one round behind, but that’s not terrible. By the time the mech links up you can activate it with the artillery units and the infantry fodder you just transported. Or if you want to spend more loot, then alternate between 1 tank or 1 mech, + 1 art and 1 infantry.

    The only way I can see getting better than 3 production worth of units onto Cairo, without a factory buy up in the mid east somewhere, using this sort of tandem launch, would require an upgrade to a major in SA. It costs 20 ipcs, way heavy of an investment. Probably a bit off the deep end, because by the time you set it up, UK wouldn’t have any money to spend on it or London is gone. Or Japan would probably be on the way, desperate to punish UK immediately for spending on an upgrade.

    Still just with the pair of transports, launching, and the lone mech or tanks racing north, I think you might recover some of the speed long term. Its not faster than an alternate 3 mech might be, per se, but the artillery projection is potent for the cost. Anyone ever bid a transport in sz 71 just to try and get that sort of situation going? I mean if you could get it at 13 to Allies, that might not be a bad investment on a UK transport to park it by the destroyer, especially if you wanted to try the carrier plan.

    Or is the idea to just use the 2 original transports near the Indian Ocean for this plan (pulling them off other targets back to SA), without any additional ship purchases?

    Do your buddies bid, or do you play this game with other rules to offset the need for an Allied leg up?


  • 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    @ShadowHAwk:

    You could to taranto without the carrier, the move is legal as you can move the carrier in non combat. And take figs as losses so the carrier can move through the channel into the red sea.
    Add 2 fighters that you start with in the med on round 2 and the destroyer and you got a decent defence. It aint bulletproof but a full carrier + destroyer should be enough to deter 1-2 bombers from getting smart.  2 transports chucking stuff is better then building arm-mech as it saves you 3 to spend somewhere else. If you are not moving fast int-art is just as good as mech-arm but cheaper.

    Those planes will have to land in malta, but you could do this with the fighter and tac from India. You really need to bid a sub in z98 for it to work out though.


  • Customizer

    I was going to say have some warships in SZ 81 to protect the transports from Axis air, but Shadow Hawk beat me to it.

    Another idea would be to put an airbase in Egypt so you can scramble fighters to defend the transports. Germany or Italy would really have to commit a lot of air assets to get them and that might be too costly for them.



  • @variance:

    @ShadowHAwk:

    You could to taranto without the carrier, the move is legal as you can move the carrier in non combat. And take figs as losses so the carrier can move through the channel into the red sea.
    Add 2 fighters that you start with in the med on round 2 and the destroyer and you got a decent defence. It aint bulletproof but a full carrier + destroyer should be enough to deter 1-2 bombers from getting smart.  2 transports chucking stuff is better then building arm-mech as it saves you 3 to spend somewhere else. If you are not moving fast int-art is just as good as mech-arm but cheaper.

    Those planes will have to land in malta, but you could do this with the fighter and tac from India. You really need to bid a sub in z98 for it to work out though.

    True but the planes from UK can come in as well, sure they have to land in malta round 1 but can axis air hit your empty carrier + destroyer round 2? and if they cant then round 2 you got the tac + fighter from malta there.

    Building an airbase is to risky, axis might get egypt and the airbase and use it against you, safer to use ships in case egypt is taken you can use the ships to invade or move to other spots. Also once you secure afrika the carrier might help vs japan.


  • 2019 '15 '14

    I’m still a little confused about which 2 transports you guys are talking about using, and what you mean by “shuck” hehe. It has a fascinating general etymology, http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=shuck but…

    To me “Shuck” in Axis and Allies has a specific meaning. It describes a specialized way of using transports to move ground units. This happens when you move back 1 sz space, pick up units, and then return to the same space where you started to unload. For sure, a rather silly technical term, granted, but the technicalities are important in this case, to describe the situation in SA.
    😄

    The transports in sz 98, and sz 39 can both reach sz 72 on UK1. From sz 72 it is possible for these transports to Shuck four ground units from South Africa to Kenya on UK2 (or for as many rounds thereafter as you can hold sz 72). Now, Sz 72 and sz 70 are the only two sea zones from which you can shuck units out of South Africa, since everything else is more than 1 sz space away. To get other places you have to move 2 or 3 spaces, which means you cannot return and “shuck” i.e. move away to load then return/unload in the same round.

    Alternatively, the transports in sz 98, and sz 39 can also both reach sz 81 on UK1. These transports can launch to sz 71 on UK2. You can have them back on Cairo with four units you picked up by UK3. In order to get units to Cairo on UK2, you’d have to buy a transport to set up the alternating thing with more speed.

    Or Finally, the transports in sz98 and sz39, could go one to sz 72 and the other to sz 81. The first moves to shuck position in sz 72, and second to launch position in sz 81. The way south African production looks and with the existing units in the area, you can have 5 total ground units at SA by UK2. The existing 2 infantry, 2 purchased artillery, and 1 purchased blitz unit. On UK2, provided you have at least 1 transport in sz 72, you can begin shucking these units to Kenya. But what might be optimal is a combination, which might be set up like this…

    -UK1: One transport from sz 39 to sz 81. One transport from sz 98 to sz 72.
    -UK2: Shuck with one transport from SA to Kenya. Launch with the other from sz 81 to sz 71 to load the following round.
    -UK3: The transport in sz 71 launches to Cairo. The sz 72 transport does not shuck, but drops to launch position at sz 71. March Kenya units north by land to trap Ethiopia and Somaliland (key to eliminate the Axis bomber threat)

    -UK4: From this point you can tandem launch 2 units every round onto Cairo, and blitz 1 unit up to Congo to link with these a round out. Or you could now keep a transport in sz 72 to shuck 2 ground every round… while the second transport bounces around to do to other stuff,  after you’ve set up the safe haven for the shuck and made the area around East Africa and the Red Sea safer from Axis bombers, with less need for warship protection.

    I believe that is max transport/artillery projection out of SA, without further production investment.
    Would you buy a transport or bid a transport to try and accelerate this process? Or just work with the 2 transports already on the board?



  • The term “shuck-shuck” obviously has different meanings to players lol. I see how one could see it as a transport(s) starting in one location, moving/picking up units and returning to the same location in one turn to off load. In G40 though you have much more water to cover, so I guess the same term “shuck-shuck” is now expanded to using multiple transports alternately moving units to a set location every turn if possible (using naval bases for extra movement). Always having transport(s) coming and going like from E US to Gibraltar, and back etc…

    As YG points out this is a good tactic to use moving slow units from S Africa to Egypt, but will take some time and also some protection as pointed out. You would need at least 2 transports (one in sz81, and one in sz71) for this to work utilizing the naval bases in both mention sz’s. Much depends on your opening UK attacks, if you clobbered the Italian navy and where you want ships/air power.

    UK1 you could use the Egyptian (sz98) transport to pick up the Malta inf & AA gun, move to sz 81 to off load them to Egypt, but will need protection from the Italian bmr (one transport in place at NB in sz81). You could have bought a transport for S Africa (sz71) UK1 and flip-flop the transports every turn starting UK2 bringing up 2 units every turn. You could have also loaded 1 inf on the Indian transport (sz39) move to sz 80 and maybe activate Persia on UK1. Then on UK2 move a couple units from Persia (sz80) to Egypt (sz81), while sending the other transport in sz81 to S Africa (sz71) and again flip-flop (or “shuck-shuck”) the transports bringing up 2 units every turn.



  • I define “a shuck” as any repeated landing of troops every turn via transport movement (i.e. "US setting up a shuck to Gib/Morocco/Spain); no movement is just called “walking across”. The “shuck-shuck” variant which only involves one set of transports (traditionally from Morocco to East Canada to Morocco, but could be something like Greece to Egypt to Greece in G40) is derived from the sound one makes as one moves their transports back and forth (“shhhhuck”->pick up men->“shhhhhuck”->drop of men).

    However, for this “shuck” from SA to Egypt to pay for itself, you pretty much have to use only your starting transports, or you only catch up in money after building 8 inf over mech to make up for the extra TT cost, but then you still lose the extra mobility after Cairo is secure. This has the side effect of no Sumatra for India which isn’t terrible if Japan went J1, but it really hurts for later DoWs. If I were to attempt this maneuver, I would probably bring inf/art from Egypt via tport and attack Ethiopia with that and the inf/mech in range and the cruiser from India. Do Taranto and activate Persia. If G bought bombers, pull the Pac DD as well for fleet defense (the SAfrica DD joins them as well as the French DD on their turn). On UK2, move your combat fleet to SZ81, drop off 2 guys from Persia, and move the mech back. The transport off Ethiopia goes to SAfrica. From there, just swap the tports every turn.


  • 2019 '15 '14

    Oh and lets not forget another favorite usage, as in “Bah! I’m getting totally shucked by the Allies!”  hehe  😄

    I see how in G40 the technical definition I hold to is undermined somewhat by the new map spread and new bases. The simple ability to move 3, under some circumstances, really encourages players to try and set up those repeating launches from harbors, so I guess these are probably the new shucks. The distances in G40 also remove many of the most advantageous shucks that were present in earlier games like Classic or Revised, or which predominate everywhere in that latest starter board 1941. In G40 there just aren’t very many good shucks left to work with, with more sz zones separating the production centers, and now harbors to encourage launches over shucks.

    Thinking back to Classic/Revised, a very common shuck was for Japan to keep their transports in the safe zone off the coast of Kwangtung, return to Japan to gather 8 units, then back to Kwangtung to unload in one move, with one solid fleet parked in this sea zone to protect the shuck play every round. This took a total of 4 transports to get working at max capacity, with the goal of transporting 8 ground off Japan onto the mainland every single round. This is contrasted with another very popular play, that had Japan launching transports down to FIC, and then alternating or trading out transports every other round. This invariably required more ships to orchestrate, and often involved the production of a factory. Here again, the idea was to get as many units off Japan per round as possible onto the mainland.

    On the Europe side of the older boards, with UK, a similar move would be the shuck to Karelia either North or via the Baltic, or the alternative shuck on Africa, again ideally 4 transports for 8 ground off England every round (or you can mirror these same moves with US, keeping the combined Anglo-America fleets in the same sz). Contrasted with this, would be the American launch from E. US directly to the front with 2 moves, as opposed to the shuck out of E. Canada with 1 move. This could get more units to England/Africa faster, but at a cost of alternating the total capacity every other round, or a cost in additional transports purchased. In this last case especially, it was often very expensive to buy enough transports and also buy enough ground to fill them at the same time, in order to max out E. USA production each round. The optimal scenario from a max production standpoint, was to set up a shuck-shuck out of E. Canada as soon as possible, moving max ground out of this location each round towards Germany.

    I don’t see the shuck potential nearly as strong these days on the G40 board, compared to earlier boards, since the best transport launch locations have Harbors now, and you really want to exploit them whenever possible. I’m thinking the idea mentioned at the outset for SA was focusing on sz 81 and sz 71 launch, and less on sz 72 traditional shuck.

    One tough spot I see in addition to the East Indies, is that it could stall your Persia plans, or force you to wait on activation for another round, which could be significant since that’s 6 ipcs worth of TUV infantry, and 2 ipcs for the territory, that most people are eager to claim as quickly as possible.

    Shuck, Shuck-Shuck, Aw Shucks!  😄

    I used to use the words shuck-shucks to mean basically that play when you had two shucks going at the same time haha. One E. Canada to UK, and one from UK to Karelia or E. Europe (later France after G is contained in the East or Russia is stabilized).

    Or there was another strong shuck-shuck for USA, from E. Canada to N.Africa, and then one from N.Africa onto Europe, both in the same turn. Shuck shuck being the sound we made when running the conveyor belt, more or less haha.



  • The transport shuck is good for flexibility, by like was said earlier, it has risk with air attacks.  If I was investing a lot into the med, I would have an airbase in egypt with planes to help protect.  Maybe a destroyer in the Red Sea to assist as well.  Mechs and Tanks tend to be less costly to set up and will be very useful, especially if you are building constantly out of SA.


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