Axis basically lost in the first two turns



  • We just played a fun game but it was over before it even began basically.

    Germany sent everything they could after UK navy 1st turn. They killed 3 UK ships total and damaged 3 capital ships. Germany lost over 1/2 their navy and 1/3 of their planes. Bad rolls can screw Germany.

    I’ve never seen this happen and it will never happen again but Germany inherited the entire Dutch navy, otherwise the Axis would have quit.

    Italy lost their entire navy on turn 2 but that was their fault for landing in Africa too early and the UK dumped everything into Egypt that could get there the 1st turn.

    Japan was let go as usual. They can become a borderline juggernaut with 110 IPC a turn but it’s not enough to get Sydney and Calcutta. The UK builds in the Commonwealths and it bails the Pacific out of trouble. Even South Africa can bail out India. As soon as the Allies see that Japan is too big it’s easy for the Allies to put Europe to the side and dump everything into the Pacific.

    Germany is fun against Russia for the first 2 turns but then they get stopped. Nearly every time.

    The strategy is the same for every game it seems (more or less). 80% against Germany for the first 6 or 7 turns. Russia dumps everything in the north for the first 4 turns against Finland. Finland fights for it’s life and sometimes falls (unless Germany builds transports). US does maximum lend lease to Allies every turn to whoever is in the war. Allies build fortifications on cities.

    The wild card is US getting lend lease captured and when is the US and Russia going to get into the war. I think its the most exciting part of the game. If the rolls stay low it’s definitely to the Axis favor. However, if the Axis don’t get lucky rolls concerning those 2 things or if they get bad rolls the first 2 turns - it’s pretty much game over for the Axis now.

    7.1 is pretty lopsided. 6.1 was better because at least the game was more even.

    The most experienced player needs to play the axis for sure.



  • when germany take holland, do you play that they roll for the navy in the pacific? Ive always just left it as pro-allies.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    So if Germany takes Holland on 2nd turn to get the 18 icp’s and Anzac takes New Guin on turn 1 you would think Germany doesn’t get the navy or die roll. But what if Germany took Holland on 1st turn then do they get to roll for navy? Or does FEC or Anzac roll for ships if they activate a DEI territory? Same as other neutrals with coastal ships.



  • The Dutch are pro-allied.  The Germans should never be able to get the Dutch navy under any circumstances.  All things Dutch get absorbed by the other allies when Holland falls.



  • And Bill, your games seem to go very differently than when I played mine…  I haven’t been able to play the updated version, mind you, but the axis losing that fast is rather hard to imagine for me.



  • ok, yeah thats what i thought.  because historically Holland and belgium both wanted to remain neutral.  they only entered the war, in both wars, when germany violated their neutrality to gain access to the plains leading into france.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    We have been playing where Germany doesn’t get the ships but just saying if Greece and Yugo are pro allied and Germany takes them they get the ships but not Holland. Just sayin.


  • 2020 2019 2018 '16 '15 '11 '10

    Bill,

    Thank you for the report.

    We played this weekend too. The Axis won but it was not easy. If Calcutta had not fallen fairly early, due to an oversight by the FEC/ANZAC player, the Axis would have lost. By turn 8, Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad were all in Soviet hands. U.S. Lend lease amounted to at least 100 IPCs to Commonwealth and Russians. Money well spent. Guards and 2 forts in Stalingrad and a stack of Commonwealth fighters in Karelia/leningrad.

    Strategic bombing was the bane of Germany’s existence. I think W. Germany should have an airfield. Better there than Czech or Bavaria. For the record, I loathe strat bombing, see it as a major expense and PITA, and believe better AA weapons should be available to counter it or less damage should accrue. Just my opinion, as I was the victim of a major strat bombing campaign. Fighting back while trying to fight Russia and support the now anemic Italians in Africa almost broke the Germans.

    By the way, the Axis cannot get the Dutch fleet. It goes to ANZAC or whichever allies occupies Dutch New Guinea.

    I honestly don’t think the Allies need more. Some tweeks in terms of bases, industrial capacity, different units etc. are always useful but we are in the balance/Axis handicap zone. Good Allied players can and will beat the Axis in 7.1. and beat them hardcore.

    PS,

    I know I lobbied for the cruiser in the S. Atlantic but maybe a U boat down there would help too better still a naval port in S France.


  • 2020 2019 2018 '16 '15 '11 '10

    Oh, and the U.S. player stated that they should be able to intervene in S. America before being at war. Monroe doctrine, banana wars and all that… hard to argue.

    we’re playing again this weekend 😄

    And Bill,

    As for bad Axis rolls early on. Don’t worry, it will happen again. And that is the rub. If the Axis blow it in the first few turns and don’t break out, they are toast. All the Allies have to do is tie them up in the early game. It’s like a striker vs. a grappler early on.


  • '14

    @Ben_D:

    The Dutch are pro-allied.  The Germans should never be able to get the Dutch navy under any circumstances.  All things Dutch get absorbed by the other allies when Holland falls.

    Yes!!!  This only applies to Strict Neutrals……and of course the Vichy rule.



  • I wasn’t 100% about the Dutch navy because on page 29 of the rules it states “if a pro or strict neutral’s capital is captured - on a roll of a 1 - 2 it becomes part of the attackers navy”.

    There is really no other way to interpret this.

    It sounds like something needs to be rewritten in the rules. However, this now makes the Allies stronger in our games where the Axis are already losing.



  • @ koba - the rules basically get the US into the war quicker if anything happens in S.A. with the Axis. + 30 IPC for US if any axis unit in S.A. (before they in the war). So that means for the Axis - don’t go into S.A. until US in the war (basically).

    Let me know how your weekend game goes. I’m surprised the Axis won but I’m glad to hear it for game balance reasons.



  • I shouldn’t say the Axis lost in the first two turns - but now that we have played enough games if the Axis (more or less) can’t get certain things done in the first 2 turns the game is basically over from what we can tell. You can’t tell the game is done until turn 7, 8 or 9 and then it becomes clear (more or less).

    At this time with our Allied strategies (see other posts) - both Germany and Italy can’t get far enough ahead in the first 2 turns to deal with Russia in turn 4 or 5.

    There is almost no way Germany can protect all their IC’s from strategic bombing. Now that AA guns don’t hit escorts in strategic bombing it makes bombing (nearly?) too good for the Allies.


  • 2020 2019 2018 '16 '15 '11 '10

    Agreed on the strat bombing. It’s too easy/damaging.

    I see HBG has underground factory markers. This may be an option for those of us who “mod” our games.

    Even if we reduce the amount of damage which the bombers can deal. I understand strategic bombing is a realistic dynamic as a rule but having no ready means of defence in a major industrial centre such as W. Germany makes no sense. Airfields are costly to build and it’s hard to believe none existed in that part of Germany from day one of the war. Strategic bombing was costly for the Allies as well. They were quickly disavowed of the belief that this method of warfare could end the war on it’s own. Rates if attrition in the bomber forces were high.

    Of course, Germany can retaliate (and has!!!) but it’s like adding expense to expense buying all those bombers and necessary fighter escorts. Once the UK player begins they’re bombing campaign, from relative safety I may add, Germany really has not choice but to invest an onerous amount of IPCs into defence/retaliation. If U.S. bombers show up….

    Worse yet, with the U-boats being cut down, the option of going for the convoy zones off the bad has been largely neutered. The boats are generally almost all eaten up by the early battles with the UK fleet.

    Again, it’s not that strat bombing is bad in essence, it’s just that it, or air defence, could use some tweeking.

    I’m really just brainstorming here but it’s nice to be able to bounce this off of you guys.



  • Unescorted bombing missions had attrition rates which were too high, however when escorted by fighters strategic bombing was instrumental to the ending of the war in both theaters. I believe an unescorted rule would help. If a fighter intercepts a bomber without fighter cover it hits on a 6 rather than a 3.

    Profit by Mission
    1 bomber vs AA = 3.88 IPC
    1 Bomber vs 1 FTR = 3.08 IPC
    1 Bomber vs 1 FTR and 1 AA = .2 IPC

    Given current rules a single bomber flying against 1 FTR and an AA will produce .2 IPC in damage per turn. The bomber alone can not produce a scenario where it loses points. The defender must therefore over commit fighters to produce a negative outcome. Since fighters can not defensively respond to bombers the defender must station his fighters at each factory multiplying his defensive problem.

    For example, 3 bombers in London would require 1 FTR in Paris, 3 FTRs in West Germany, 3 FTRs in Berlin, 1 FTR in Stettin, and 3 FTRs in Turin along with AAs in each location just to reach a point where they are only slightly losing. The Axis would need to commit an additional FTR to each location to create solid defense.

    Bombers are currently one of the best ROI units in the game, up to a certain threshold. In fact, you could raise the cost of bombers to 20 and they would still be a ‘profitable’ unit if paired with a fighter.

    (Mission profit assumes target is a major factory. It is slightly less positive for the bomber against minor factories. In fact negative for FTR+AA combo)



  • One option would be to alter damage to unit build ratio

    Major Factory
    0 Damage - 10 Units
    1-2 Damage - 9 Units
    3-4 Damage - 8 Units

    19-20 Damage - 0 units

    This would allow the defender to set his factories to levels that would produce negative outcomes to an attacker. For example I could repair the West Germany Factory to 16 points of damage (spending 4) and build 2 units. This would reduce the air campaign against Paris and West Germany to a 4 point loss per turn for the Axis without committing anything more than repair and AA. The Axis could still build 4 units per turn in the West. I rarely build more than this during turns 2 through 7 when the US is not in the war and not in a position to threaten the coast with sustained operation.


  • 2020 2019 2018 '16 '15 '11 '10

    Sounds like a reasonable solution. Or over part thereof.

    If the U.S. get’s in earlier, as they sometimes do, it may not be optimal.

    Maybe there is a way to build better AA defenses for ICs? Fortifying, better AA, better interceptors,….



  • All the suggestions are good - but the game already has too many little rules that are easy to miss.

    The game needs to be simpler or have an index because even though we’ve played 15 - 20 games total someone always forgets something. Then every new edition adds on top of something else and sometimes there can be some different arguments on what the rules mean.

    Simpler is better unless it’s laid out better. IMO



  • @Tigerman77:

    @Ben_D:

    The Dutch are pro-allied.  The Germans should never be able to get the Dutch navy under any circumstances.  All things Dutch get absorbed by the other allies when Holland falls.

    Yes!!!  This only applies to Strict Neutrals……and of course the Vichy rule.

    Does this mean the Greek navy doesn’t get scuttled/captured if Greece falls without being activated by UK?


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    Take Greece with UK on first turn and ships are UK’s. If you dont take Greece first turn the axis can take it and ships are theres.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    Play testin game with 1 fort per territory only and the no ally of Russia can take strict neutrals. The new lend lease rule I’m not to fond of yet so not using that rule. Waiting for peoples comments on that without being played yet.



  • @SS:

    Take Greece with UK on first turn and ships are UK’s. If you dont take Greece first turn the axis can take it and ships are theres.

    This statement is inaccurate.  Refer to page 29 of the rules in the .pdf file of version 7.0 (the most recently published set of rules).


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    We been playing all games where if you take a pro  neutral you get land and ships and can move troops and non capital ships. If a strict,  land stays and roll for ships and either can’t move. I’m going to look at 7.1 rule.

    Same rule.

    Tigerman what is the correct rule? The one on page 29?

    sophiedog, sorry if incorrect answer. If it is then we been playing it wrong.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    This is what i’ve been told so far.

    Pro ships go to activating player.
    Strict neutral ships are rolled for.
    If the pro neutral is attacked and capital falls, the fleet is rolled for by the occuping power.
    Pro neutral ground troops can’t move until activated by player.



  • It specifically states that if the country’s capital tt is taken by force, whether it is either pro-one side or strict neutral, all of the remaining land units may only defend and cannot move or attack.  All of the country’s ships are then rolled for to see what happens to them.  This is in the 12th part (called Strict Neutrals) of the 4th section of the rules, on page 29.  Exceptions are described in other parts under the same section.

    So yeah, you have it right there SS in your last post.


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