Many ways of figurating air-to-air combat in general combat


  • 2017 '16

    There is many ways to introduce some kind of air combat in which aircrafts can directly hit enemy’s planes instead of applying casualties to ground or naval units.
    I would like to present some choices available with links to much detailed threads and develop the very last one (a newborn).

    1) Inside the regular combat, any Fgs (& even TcBs, but rarely StBs) rolling “1” destroy an opponent planes, if any is present.
    Seldom, defending Fgs on a roll of “2” or less can destroy 1 attacking plane.
    However, this one special treatment to “1” or even “2” is outside the actual A&A game mechanics.

    Here is one of my simplified HR for 1942.2 (StBs and Fgs only):
    A simplified dogfight and SBR House Rule for 1942 2nd Edition
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34227.msg1317357#msg1317357

    Here is another such example of a simplified way of treating planes combat, this time for G40 (Fgs, TcBs and StBs)
    Develop on a post inside the thread Considering 8 IPC fighters… in which Fighter hit planes A/D on “1” & “2” roll
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32285.msg1350684#msg1350684

    2) Inside the regular combat, a specific unit: Fighter get the ability to pick an opponent plane as casualty upon a hit, if there is any plane.
    Usually, Fighter unit has a weaker value and lower cost than OOB.
    Some values and cost: Fg A1 D2 C6-8 / Fg A1 first strike D2 C6-7 / Fg A2 D2 C8

    Rethinking Air units simulating historical air-to-air combat: 2 planes carrier
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34667.0

    But it was necessary for Naval operation balance to have a Carrier unit able to hold 3 Fgs, or 2 Fgs & 1 TcB or 2 TcBs.
    Adapting A&A1914 rules for G40
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32599.msg1259497#msg1259497
    Here is one example of an adapted HR for 1942.2 (including TcBs):
    Introducing Tactical Bomber and an evolved Fighter unit in a third edition?
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34224.msg1317032#msg1317032
    However, it is now possible to have a Carrier unit able to hold 3 units, whether Fighter or Tactical Bomber: 3 Fgs, 2 Fgs & 1 TcB, 1 Fg & 2 TcBs or 3 TcBs
    Alternate 3 planes Carrier, Air oriented for G40 or 1942.2 with TacBs
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34676.0

    3) A single initial air-to-air combat phase before the regular combat. (Some do it for 1 combat cycle, others do it until all planes are destroyed on 1 side inspired by 1914.)
    Each planes receive a distinctive value different and usually lower from regular combat and often inspired by the SBR dogfight.
    Some combat values: Fg A1 or A2, D1 or D2 / TcB A1 or A0, D1 or D0 / StB A1 or A0, D0, cost can change from -1 or -2 IPCs of OOB.

    Here is three examples of an HR, 2 with a single cycle and the other to total air destruction of one side:
    Alternate Air combat in OOB G40 with 2 planes Carrier, 1942.1 and 1942.2
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33229.msg1262270#msg1262270
    Dogfighting in 1914 version of G40 & SBR escort and interception
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33205.msg1260685#msg1260685

    Rethinking Air Units
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34502.msg1328857#msg1328857
    @Narvik:

    Fighter cost 8, A1 D2
    Tac B. cost 10, A3 D4
    S. Bomber cost 12, A4 D1

    Before naval and land combat can start, there should be an dogfight phase, that continue until one side retreats his planes or are free of planes, like there is in the A&A 1914 game.

    There are two ways to solve this air to air combat phase. The OOB way
    Attacking aircrafts roll 1
    Intercepting fighters roll 2 or less
    in this case defending Tacs and Bombers should not roll, just be sittin ducks and either be taken as casualties or survive to next phase.

    The other way is to let all planes keep their set combat values for simplicity, even in the dog fight. In that case, Bombers will be stronger than fighters in dog fight, which is very historical uncorrect.

    4) Every combat round, there is an air-to-air combat phase (when there is planes on both sides) before each regular combat phase.
    Similar to the Subs special Surprise Strike phase in which only Subs can fire when there is no Destroyer on the other side.
    Each other rounds keeps the same 2 phases until one side have no more plane.
    By giving specific and slightly lower combat values in each phase, surviving planes can roll in both phases in each combat round.

    The first post where I introduced this idea:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34502.msg1329263#msg1329263
    The more defined is in this post:

    Re: Rethinking Air Units
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34502.msg1329725#msg1329725

    Reduced cost: 8 IPCs for Fighters and 10 IPCs for Tactical Bombers which can compensate for the higher attrition rate.
    Keeps 12 IPCs for Strategic bombers.
    Only attacker can retreat his planes while continuing combat with ground units.

    Some options of various combat values:
    1- Air phase combat value / regular combat value, Fg units have the same combat values in both phases.
    StB A0 D0 / A4 D1
    TcB A1 D1 / A3-4 D3-4 get +1 A/D when there is no air combat
    Fg A1 D2 / A1 D2

    2- Air phase combat value / regular combat value
    StB A1 D0 / A4 D1
    TcB A1 D1 / A3-4 D3-4 get +1 A/D when there is no air combat
    Fg A1 D2 / A2 D2

    The new Fighter has the same full strength as the OOB when their is an aerial combat.
    And when there is only regular combat, it gets an acceptable combat value A2 D2.
    This is the same value as a Destroyer units.

    3- Air phase based on G40 SBR / regular combat value
    StB A1 D0 / A4 D1
    TcB A1 D0 / A3-4 D3 get +1 A when there is no air combat
    Fg A1 D1 / A2 D3

    4- Air phase loosely based on 1942.2 SBR / regular combat value
    StB A1 D0 / A4 D1
    TcB A1 D1 / A3-4 D3 get +1 A when there is no air combat
    Fg A1 First Strike D2 / A2 D2

    5- A combined arms for Fighters / regular combat value with Air superiority bonus for TcB
    StB A1 D0 / A4 D1
    TcB A1 D1 / A3-4 D3-4 get +1 A/D when there is no air combat
    Fg A1-2 D2 / A2 D2 get +1 A in air combat phase when paired 1:1 with TcB or with StB (Fg is playing an escort role, in which bombers are bait).


    QUESTION**: Which types of aerial combat amongst those 4 do you feel better fit in A&A mechanics?**

    If you have a complete post describing a detailed HR aerial combat system, you are very welcome.
    I will put a link and a describing comments.

    Imperious Leader described a different ones in which there is a roughly sketched HR, I believe (but not sure) planes have a complete independent battle before regular combat without plane on one side, and so is part of the third category:
    @Imperious:

    Most of these too complicated…

    Old ideas here. have planes on planes fight independently round by round at aerial combat values:

    Fighters 3
    Fighter-Bombers 2
    Bombers 1

    allow either side to retreat in full after any combat round ( at least one must occur)

    Then if one side has planes, they may fire. FB if it rolls a one, can select target ( so it rolls a one, it can select carrier, or tank, etc)

    No other changes unless you want to change every unit, and that’s stupid. You cant change just air units and figure the game will not go out of balance.



  • I think this thread should be a poll, and that’s IMHO.

    I pick nr 3, an initial air to air combat phase before the regular land combat, inspired by both the A&A 1914 game and the SBR dogfight.

    My experience is, that if you want other people to play by your houserules, they cant be too alien and strange to the A&A mechanic.

    The initial air to air combat phase to gain air superiority before a ground operation is what I figure match and model the real war in the best way. This is how it was. I think all aircrafts should attack on 1, and only fighters should  be allowed to intercept and defend on a 2 or less. Defending Bombers are supposed to be stuck on the airfields, and sittin ducks. Now people must learn to not park their Bombers close to the frontline, and not in a territory that is soon to be attacked. And the Fighter unit will be more distinctive - as a fighter.

    But I am not sure this air-to-air should go before naval battles too ?

    Maybe differ land and naval combat ?
    The air-to-air combat in a territory goes on until total air destruction of one side, and then the land combat can start.
    But naval battles are different from fighting on land, so in this case I go for nr 2, Fighters must target enemy aircrafts inside the regular combat phase. Targeting is not alien to A&A, since the Kamikaze fighters have been allowed to target capital ships a long time. So lets say, the Kamikaze is not a fighter, its a Tac bomber. Now all Tac bombers are allowed to target ships, any ship they want. Then Fighters can target any enemy aircraft. And let Heavy Bombers target subs. This makes sense.

    Naval battles will be
    Subs roll preemptive surprise dice, only blocked by a matching destroyer. Lets just imagine that a single destroyer blocking 1000 subs would be seen as derogatory in the real world.
    Then attacking aircrafts roll dice, and target casualties
    Then the ships roll dice, owner choose casualties.

    This feels correct


  • 2017 '16

    Thanks for answering.
    I hesitated on making it a poll but the choices are still fuzzy and can depend on specific houserules instead of a generic mechanism.

    And sometimes, the answer cannot fit in a single point.

    You just introduce two kinds of air combat according to the grounds setting or the naval setting of the battle. Already outside the boxes.

    To summarize in a different fashion:
    Against ground: 1 single air-to-air phase with as many combat cycles required to get total air supremacy. Then regular combat follow.

    Air phase values:
    Fighter A1 D2 M4-5 cost 8?
    Tactical Bomber A1 D1 M4-5 cost 10?
    Strategic Bomber A1 D0 M6-7 cost 12

    In naval combat:
    All units has their OOB value
    Fighter A3 D4 M4-5 any hit is applied to an enemy’s aircraft first if targeted,
    Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3 M4-5, any hit is applied to capital warship first (Carrier, Battleship and Cruiser, if targeted)
    Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6-7, any hit can be applied to Submarines first.


    1- All aircrafts roll dice, and target casualties.
    2- Then all ships roll dice, owner choose casualties.
    3- Remove casualties.

    Is it right?

    Here is the poll:
    4 ways to play aircrafts dogfighting inside G40 or 1942.2 ?
    November 26, 2014, 09:17:43 pm
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34875.msg1351379#msg1351379


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