• Customizer

    Has anyone considered changing the SB to 3D6@1 for attack one round of combat only and leaving 1D6@1 for defense?
    It simulates a big payload but full of inaccurate bombs and still leaves it still available for traditional combat at land and sea.

    The SBR rules could be left OOB. IMO this is a good way to stimulate the role of the Strat bomber.

    For those that have custom units you could assign the current OOB stats of the Strat Bomber to planes like HBG’s B25 and other equivalent pieces.

    Just an idea.

  • TripleA '12

    I like that idea! Strat Bombers firing 3 dice @ 1 and all hits count, it’s cool! :)

  • Customizer

    Thought of some rules for aircraft DK. Not sure if it helps but,  here goes…

    All aircraft OOB stats remain the same except:

    Fighters may only hit other aircraft unless there are no defending aircraft present. Or all defending aircraft have been eliminated.

    Strategic bombers can still attack any unit in the game except,  pardon the pun, they attack by bombardment just like the battleship.  One round 1D6@4. They still remain in combat and can be taken as a casualty but the give only an opening bombardment. While defending they roll thier normal 1D6@1 and defend normally…

    Just some ideas.

  • '17 '16

    @toblerone77:

    Thought of some rules for aircraft DK. Not sure if it helps but,  here goes…

    All aircraft OOB stats remain the same except:

    Fighters may only hit other aircraft unless there are no defending aircraft present. Or all defending aircraft have been eliminated.

    **Strategic bombers can still attack any unit in the game except,  pardon the pun, they attack by bombardment just like the battleship. ** One round 1D6@4. They still remain in combat and can be taken as a casualty but the give only an opening bombardment. While defending they roll thier normal 1D6@1 and defend normally…

    Just some ideas.

    Very interesting ideas. Funny thread. There is many differents ideas presented.
    I just noted you said only attacking fighter hit directly defending aircraft present. Why isn’t two ways? Is it at OOB value? If the case, then it is far more provocative than my little Fg unit A1 firs strike D2, hitting directly enemy’s plane.

    By the way, apology accepted, it was no big deal upon me.


  • Yes all interesting - I already bought my tac bombers from HBG - have them ready. But I probably won’t use them for a while so my little game group doesn’t mutiny from too many new rules at once. I’ll have time to mull on these ideas…

  • '17 '16

    @toblerone77:

    Has anyone considered changing the SB to 3D6@1 for attack one round of combat only and leaving 1D6@1 for defense?
    It simulates a big payload but full of inaccurate bombs and still leaves it still available for traditional combat at land and sea.
    The SBR rules could be left OOB. IMO this is a good way to stimulate the role of the Strat bomber.

    For those that have custom units you could assign the current OOB stats of the Strat Bomber to planes like HBG’s B25 and other equivalent pieces.

    Just an idea.

    I would like to go a little further with your ideas combined with my own on HAStBs.
    Let’s keep OOB Bombers as a Medium Bombers like the B-25.

    The High Altitude Strategic Bomber would cost the same 12 IPCs.
    SBR damage would be like HvyBomber Tech 2D6 keeps the better and add 2.
    2D6, keep the best dice and give+2: (for 3 to 8 damage pts).
    If destroyed, damage is 1D6-1, (for 0 to 5 damage pts).

    Instead of 3D@1, I would reduced it further to 2D@1 just to harmonized it with SBR rolling 2 dices, even if only 1 is considered.
    By keeping the same cost at 12 IPCs and an increase SBR damage average, it can compensate for the lower attack value, but it is slightly better than a simple attack @2.

    High Altitude Strategic Bomber, 4 engines bombers
    Attack 2D@1
    Defense 1
    Cost 12
    Move 6-7
    SBR damage: roll 2D6 but keep one best dice then add 2
    SBR damage if destroyed by IC’s AAA: 1D6-1 ,
    No damage if destroyed by Fg interceptor.
    A1 D0 in air-to-air combat

  • Customizer

    @toblerone77:

    Thought of some rules for aircraft DK. Not sure if it helps but,  here goes…

    All aircraft OOB stats remain the same except:

    Fighters may only hit other aircraft unless there are no defending aircraft present. Or all defending aircraft have been eliminated.

    Strategic bombers can still attack any unit in the game except,  pardon the pun, they attack by bombardment just like the battleship.  One round 1D6@4. They still remain in combat and can be taken as a casualty but the give only an opening bombardment. While defending they roll thier normal 1D6@1 and defend normally…

    Just some ideas.

    Baron this should read: All attacking fighters may only attack defending aircraft, unless there are no defending fighters present. Or all defending fighters are destroyed. It’s meant to be a double edged sword. I’m typing from a smartphone so it’s hard type this out.

    I will elaborate more when I’m at a computer.

  • Customizer

    Okay I’m at the computer again.

    I’m rethinking this a bit.

    Fighters are OOB in stats.

    Fighters on both sides may only hit aircraft this includes any non-fighter aircraft.
    Any combat unit can hit fighters except subs.
    Either side may retreat some or all fighters after one round of combat, must adhere to range limits.

    Exceptions to fighters only attacking aircraft:
    A. The opposing side does not have any fighters.
    B. Either sides fighters are completely destroyed.
    C. Either side performs a FULL retreat of fighters.

    As for STBs I think a one round bombardment 1D6@4 to any unit and all other stats being OOB I feel is best.

    My Reasons:
    If the STB is nerfed too badly and too restricted it’s only real advantage is range and SBR to ICs.

    One round of bombardment 1D6@4 simulates the heavy fire power of STBs and Medium bombers alike. The one time bombardment simulates the inaccuracy of carpet bombing.

    I won’t get too much into history for the sake of gameplay but bombers like the; Mitchell, JU-88, Betty, etc., were just lighter versions of the STB but not quite akin to the likes of what the TcB represents in the game IMO.

    I’m a collector so It’s easy for me to say but if you really want to simulate the Medium bomber’s role in the game you may want to buy custom units Mitchells for the Allies, and the HBG Axis heavy bombers to represent STBs.

    For the Mitchells and existing OOB Axis STBs (Which will now represent Med. Bombers) I suggest making them Long- range TcBs M-6 A-3/4 D3 C?

    OR

    Heavy TcBs M-4 D-3 Attack 2D6@3/4 (Best of 2 results or “straight up” 2D6@3) C?

    These characteristics represent fire power, accuracy and range for pure combat whereas the StB still represents thier more historical role IMO. As I said I’m a collector and these rules may not work for everyone. For me If I were to implement this in my games, is the direction i would go.

    Those are just opinions.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I like the opening fire aspect, but would go:

    • 3@1 per attacking strategic bomber during opening fire. Â
    • Bombers automatically “retreat” after opening fire.
    • Defending fighters automatically negate Strategic Bomber in opening fire (Strategic Bombers automatically retreat due to cover air patrol.)
    • Strategic Bombers have a defense value of 0 (bombers caught on the ground.)
    • Strategic Bombers cost 12 (Same as a cruiser.)

    Yes I am taking the paratroopers back off and dropping them back to 6/7 flight range instead of 7/8 (which I really like because 8 range means they can actually fly out AND back for SBR in the Pacific!)  just to drop the price back down to 12 IPC.

    Of course, defending fighters would not turn back strategic bombers on SBR runs.  I’d like to see Heavy Bombers doing at least 4 damage as a minimum to bases and industrial complexes which means the 2d6+2 damage kind of works as well.  (Min 4, max 14 but average is 10.)  Makes sense that a complex would be pretty shut down a least for one season as it gets repaired as well and it refocuses attention to SBR campaigns.

  • '17 '16

    Here is another proposition about High Altitude Strategic Bomber which I found interesting and somewhat balance at 15 IPCs.
    In addition it can be a way to roll dices as Toblerone suggested:

    John Griffey (AnimalMother)
    The Heavy Bomber tech breakthrough lets each bomber roll two dice in battle or in strategic bombing, picking the best of the two dice as the result.

    In battle, that means a bomber’s odds of scoring a hit go up from 67% (4/6) to 89% (8/9). Thus, in battle a heavy bomber is 33% more powerful than the old bomber.

    In strategic bombing, this means that each bomber which rolls a die/dice will on average score 4.46 hits rather than the usual 3.5 hits. Thus, in strategic bombing the heavy bomber is 28% more powerful than the old bomber.

    But the heavy bomber was designed for strategic bombing rather than ground support.
    I would replace the current heavy bomber tech rule with this rule:

    Heavy Bomber hits on a 5 or less in battle. (HB is 25% more powerful than old bomber, which hits on a 4 or less.)

    –In Strategic Bombing, roll all heavy bomber dice at once, and pick the best (highest) half of the rolls. E.g., if you have 5 Heavy Bombers, roll ten dice and pick the best five dice.

    This will make the average roll per Heavy Bomber approach 5 (rather than 4.46) when large numbers of Heavy Bombers roll.
    This simulates some of the firestorm effect of large heavy bombing attacks. The Heavy Bomber is now up to 43% more powerful than the old bomber, not 28% more powerful.

    http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/592106/heavy-bombers
    Since it was desigh for a D6 bombard damage on IC, I would slightly adjust the stats:

    High Altitude Strategic Bomber, 4 engines bombers
    Attack 5
    Defense 1
    Cost 15
    Move 6-7
    SBR damage: roll 2D6 but keep one best dice then add 2,
    Firestorm effect: if more than 1 HAStB is part of SBR, all the dices are roll together and pick the bests for each attacking unit then add 2 per each unit.
    A1 D0 in air-to-air combat

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I’d still have all strategic bomber defense abilities set to 0, maybe even leave them as last possible unit that can be taken as a casualty since army units and fighter units were tasked with protecting bombers at all costs.  Basically, apply the Transport defense rules to Strategic Bombers.

  • '17 '16

    @Cmdr:

    I’d still have all strategic bomber defense abilities set to 0, maybe even leave them as last possible unit that can be taken as a casualty since army units and fighter units were tasked with protecting bombers at all costs. Basically, apply the Transport defense rules to Strategic Bombers.

    You really see StBs as they were sitting duck on the tarmack waiting to be strafing down by Fighters and TcBs, isn’t?

    For the highest cost amongst planes, a single @1 on defense is minimal for a combat unit.
    Also, you can also figure that StB on defense are necessarily bombing over their homeland, so they need more accuracy to not bomb on collateral damage.
    The attacker is on the move and not static.
    Their is many other ways to figure an historical situation to explain the very low defense @1.

    I refer you to all the discussions on DK’s thread about how it is interesting a Classic transport compared to taken last transport.
    The aberration of the defenseless transport The link is to a summary of reasons given to argue for Classic TP.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30618.msg1289043#msg1289043

    However, in SBR escort and intercept phase, I agree with you there is some balance ways to give A0 D0 to StBs while Fg A1 D2 or A1 D1.

  • Customizer

    @Cmdr:

    I like the opening fire aspect, but would go:

    • 3@1 per attacking strategic bomber during opening fire. Â
    • Bombers automatically “retreat” after opening fire.
    • Defending fighters automatically negate Strategic Bomber in opening fire (Strategic Bombers automatically retreat due to cover air patrol.)
    • Strategic Bombers have a defense value of 0 (bombers caught on the ground.)
    • Strategic Bombers cost 12 (Same as a cruiser.)

    Yes I am taking the paratroopers back off and dropping them back to 6/7 flight range instead of 7/8 (which I really like because 8 range means they can actually fly out AND back for SBR in the Pacific!)  just to drop the price back down to 12 IPC.

    Of course, defending fighters would not turn back strategic bombers on SBR runs. Â I’d like to see Heavy Bombers doing at least 4 damage as a minimum to bases and industrial complexes which means the 2d6+2 damage kind of works as well. Â (Min 4, max 14 but average is 10.) Â Makes sense that a complex would be pretty shut down a least for one season as it gets repaired as well and it refocuses attention to SBR campaigns.

    @Cmdr:

    I’d still have all strategic bomber defense abilities set to 0, maybe even leave them as last possible unit that can be taken as a casualty since army units and fighter units were tasked with protecting bombers at all costs.  Basically, apply the Transport defense rules to Strategic Bombers.

    Hey Jennifer,
    I like your ideas. I think they more reflect how strategic bombers worked. One thing that always bothered me is someone sending transports for an amphibious assault escorted by bombers to fight any scramble planes. For the game it does make sense, bombers attack @4 so they would be great to deal with scrambling fighters and/or tacs. However, in reality, it is just ludicrous.
    Also, I think the idea of defending bombers having a defense of 0 is a great idea, as well as your “chosen last as casualties” idea.
    A couple of questions:
    1 > I may have missed this in all the posts, but you mentioned defending fighters causing attacking bombers to turn back without doing the opening shots. What if the attacker also has fighters? Do you have to have an air superiority battle round first? Or are the bombers allowed to do the opening shot as long as they are paired one for one with an attacking fighter?

    2 > On SBRs, you mentioned defending fighters would NOT turn back attacking bombers. In that case, would you say the attacking bombers can still hit interceptors if they roll a 1? (since the bombers did have defensive weapons and were sometimes successful at downing fighters)

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Someone else had suggested an Air to Air battle prior to any attack and I concurred that I liked the idea.  So all fighters/tactical bombers would roll using defense abilities (Fighters @4, Tactical Bombers @3 for both Attacker and Defender to simulate dog fighting)  in that case, any escorted strategic bombers should also get to fire @1 since they did have machine guns to cover all flanks.

    I am thinking strategic bombers that are on the ground when the enemy attacks.  In that case, I believe the tactic was to hide them in hangers, get them spread apart on the tarmac and hope your AA Guns and defending cover air patrols could beat back the enemy air attack.


    An Example:

    The United States attacks with 2 Fighters, 1 Tactical Bomber, 1 Strategic Bomber, 88 Infantry, 32 Artillery, 14 Armor at the Germans in Berlin.
    Berlin scrambles 3 Fighters to try and knock out the American air forces.

    Before the ground battle can be conducted you have to resolve the scramble.  (Note, an Airbase is still required to scramble and you are still limited to 3 aircraft scrambled.)
    Germany gets 3 hits at 4 or less (100% accuracy.)
    The United States gets a hit for one of the fighters (@4) the other fighter, tactical bomber (@3) and strategic bomber (@1) miss.

    The United States may either withdraw all attacking aircraft that have not been hit, or continue.  For argument’s sake the US retreats it’s airpower.

    Germany may now defend with all planes left (even those scrambled.)  This is because the planes are still over the territory being attacked so they do not have to move to continue engaging, they can just dive on the unsuspecting Americans.  (This is to make up for the limit on scrambled planes.)


    Just kind of how I see it.  You are not really using the planes twice on defense or offense.  Essentially the air battle is like a long “opening fire” phase that has to be resolved before the general battle can be run.  Any units left after the attacker retreats, defender is wiped out or attacker is wiped out, can continue as per normal defending rules.

  • '17 '16

    @Cmdr:

    Someone else had suggested an Air to Air battle prior to any attack and I concurred that I liked the idea.  So all fighters/tactical bombers would roll using defense abilities (Fighters @4, Tactical Bombers @3 for both Attacker and Defender to simulate dog fighting)  in that case, any escorted strategic bombers should also get to fire @1 since they did have machine guns to cover all flanks.

    I am thinking strategic bombers that are on the ground when the enemy attacks.   In that case, I believe the tactic was to hide them in hangers, get them spread apart on the tarmac and hope your AA Guns and defending cover air patrols could beat back the enemy air attack.Â


    An Example:

    The United States attacks with 2 Fighters, 1 Tactical Bomber, 1 Strategic Bomber, 88 Infantry, 32 Artillery, 14 Armor at the Germans in Berlin.
    Berlin scrambles 3 Fighters to try and knock out the American air forces.

    Before the ground battle can be conducted you have to resolve the scramble.  (Note, an Airbase is still required to scramble and you are still limited to 3 aircraft scrambled.)
    Germany gets 3 hits at 4 or less (100% accuracy.)
    The United States gets a hit for one of the fighters (@4) the other fighter, tactical bomber (@3) and strategic bomber (@1) miss.

    The United States may either withdraw all attacking aircraft that have not been hit, or continue.  For argument’s sake the US retreats it’s airpower.

    Germany may now defend with all planes left (even those scrambled.)  This is because the planes are still over the territory being attacked so they do not have to move to continue engaging, they can just dive on the unsuspecting Americans.  (This is to make up for the limit on scrambled planes.)Â


    Just kind of how I see it.  You are not really using the planes twice on defense or offense.  Essentially the air battle is like a long “opening fire” phase that has to be resolved before the general battle can be run.  Any units left after the attacker retreats, defender is wiped out or attacker is wiped out, can continue as per normal defending rules.

    How is this an example of scramble?
    Why German’s air defense should be limited to 3 units?
    Why the 10 alleged German’s Fighters (for argument’s sake) cannot all defend the invaded homeland territory?
    There is no need of a functionnal Airbase, per OOB rule, since it is not an amphibious assault.

    But if it was the case, US’ transports, DDs and escorting planes must fight to the death, any defending Subs and up to three scrambled German’s Fighters, all at regular combat values.

    Why in a specific air combat phase do you use the aircraft regular value, as if it was a regular combat in which you can pick ground units as casualty?

    Can US airplanes and defending German’s Fighters can both withdraw from the opening air phase to fight normally behind a huge stack of Inf instead?

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    It was an example because Berlin, Germany happens to start the game with an Airbase.  It had nothing to do with Germany or America outside of the two nations being on opposing teams.  I could easily have chosen Leningrad or London, England.

    What I wanted to demonstrate how I saw a preceding air battle prior to a ground attack and the role of the Strategic Bomber in said air attack on the attacking side.  Specifically, that the attacking bombers would roll @1 in the dogfight and then 3@1 each bomber that survived against the enemy ground forces.

    Airbases area already restricted to a maximum of three scrambled aircraft, so it feels right that it stays as such.  Just like in naval battles, the attacker can bring as many aircraft as s/he wants to the fight (the defender’s option to deal with that is to choose not to scramble!)

    Naval engagements against scrambled aircraft wouldn’t change.  (IE your example of transports and destroyers conducting an amphibious assault with the enemy scrambling 1-3 fighters against them.  There would be no change at all, since there would be no dogfight.)

  • Customizer

    I’ll offer one last thought on this before the topic becomes hamburger.

    Read:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II
    More information on WWII aircraft: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_World_War_II
    I would do this:

    All planes cost 10 IPCs with these stats:

    Fighter: A3-D4-M4 Lighter attack, Heavy defense

    Tactical Bomber: A4-D3-M4 * no combined arms bonus. Heavier Attack, Lighter defense.

    Strategic Bomber: All stats OOB except they may only select infrastructure to attack and cannot be used in conventional combat at all.

    Personally I don’t like this idea, but it does limit the StB to the desired effect of many whom have posted, in many ways who just want to use OOB units.

    Also to the topic of Tacs and their role and what they encompass, The POV of SBs being “dead on the ground” would apply by the same logic be “Dead in the Air” in reference to TBs. Dive bombers as well as torpedo bombers were frequently slaughtered in the air in countless battles. Their attacks were more precise than the heavy bombers yes, but their fire power was limited, and the crews frequently missed their targets, especially in the case of naval warfare.

    I’m not sure of what the aim of this HR is intended to simulate. But I give the suggestion to relegate the SB to a weapon that simply simulates the bombing of bases and industry and take it out of regular combat entirely if that is the desired goal. I will say however if this is to reflect historical factors, the TB should be significantly weaker and not so close in stats to the fighter on defense by any means. However the stats I gave to the TB seem to reflect the desire of the HR’s goals in relegating the SB to a more strategic role.

  • '17 '16

    It is KISS and at 10 IPCs still a viable purchase even if StB is specialized only in SBR.
    And less tragic if an StB is shot down by Fgs or AAA guns.
    Good you think about it.
    In your custom games did you ever have more than 3 types of combat aircrafts?
    I let aside Air Transport.

  • Customizer

    As I’ve said I still don’t like the idea but it fits into the idea of the topic. As of late I’ve been using OOB rules and stats because I’m teaching new players. I’ve also mentioned that I have a significant arsenal of custom units so IMO I can better adapt to more or different HRs than OOB provides if my group moves in that direction at some point.


  • If SBs can’t attack anything other than infrastructure, why leave them attacking @ 4? And making them cost just 10 they would murder peoples factories. There is already a strategy out there of the USA buying all bombers and doing that.

    I agree the TB and Ftr shouldn’t be so close in stats. What about:

    Fighters: Cost 8, attack 2, def 4, cost 8 **
    Tac Bombers: Cost 10, attack 4, def 2, cost 10
    Strat Bombers: Cost 12, Attack 2, def 1, industrial bombing ability

    ** This probably wouldn’t work, because of fighter vs fighter combat.

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