Barbarossa timing question



  • Howdy! Long-time lurker, first-time poster on these forums. What a treasure-trove of all things A&A when I found this place!

    My question is this: when doing a flexible G1 opening (door open for G3 Sealion or G2 Barb), how do you respond if Paris/naval goes decently but your Yugo strafe succeeds ? Now your army is out of position for a G2 DOW on Russia, because they can deadzone East Poland.

    Does this convince you to Sealion, or will you regroup for a G3 Barb?

    If you decide on G3 Barb, should you: G2 arty, G3/4 mech/arm, G5/6 air for a G7 Moscow? Or build as if you had G2 DOWd: G2/3 mech/arm, G4/5 air, G6 Moscow?

    Or is my analysis all off–just barrel into East Poland and damn the torpedos?


  • 2019 2018 2017

    Welcome to the forum!

    In response to your question, I have one of my own: what do you consider “a flexible G1 opening (door open for G3 Sealion or G2 Barb)”? When it comes to purchases, the most flexible thing to do, is not to buy anything at all G1, leaving the Allies in a quandary as to what you’re going to do with all the money you have G2. But because not buying slow units G1 is not conducive to doing Barbarossa, I’d also consider buying some inf/art, a transport and maybe a bomber if you want to keep your options open. But that’s just because it looks flexible, I’m not sure I really like a buy like that.

    In an attempt to answer your question: no, if I accidentally take Yugoslavia G1, that wouldn’t make me switch to a Sea Lion strategy. The reasons for that are, first, that Russia needs to be taken out no matter what; and second, that there’s no point in contemplating Sea Lion as long as the UK hasn’t made its move. I consider doing Barbarossa at some point in time (and not too late) to be the default strategy, and Sea Lion to be an opportunity that may or may not present itself.

    I’d buy some fast units G2 to support Barbarossa G3. And I wouldn’t be too worried about teh Russians deadzoning anything in that case, because it seems like a fine opportunity for an I2 can opener on say, East Poland or Bessarabia. No G3 DOW necessary - just walk into friendly Italian territory and land your planes there, and even collect the Russian trade NO.



  • Thank you!

    By flexible, I mean any build that’s not all-in, like major IC or huge ground force off the bat. In this case (practice game against myself), I built 1AC/2TT, which I (perhaps wrongly) consider flexible in that it doesn’t hurt too bad to switch to full ground G2/onwards.

    Excellent point on Italians preventing the deadzone–thanks for that! Couple of followup questions though: What is the difference to Russian responses for Yugo capture/strafe (assuming no Japan invasion T1)? Is the AC/2TT considered an optimal flexible buy? Is G6 or G7 a better goal for capturing Moscow?


  • 2019 2018 2017

    Oh, that’s quite a popular and flexible buy, nothing wrong with it. Perhaps I’d better refer you to Cow’s excellent summary on what you can do with it.
    As for Russia…. they usually buy inf+art anyway (for example, 7 inf + 4 art is pretty much “normal”). I don’t think there’s any reason to change that just because Yugoslavia went different.


  • 2016 2015 '10

    I don’t usually plan for a G5 Moscow take in dice games–I find it overly risky because I can’t predict what will happen in Yugo G1.  There are additional reasons to prefer G6, such as extra troops from Bulgaria, Scandinavia, and G1 inf/art buys.

    If you want to project a threat towards both Moscow and London, you might consider buying nothing at all G1.  1 AC 2 tt puts you in good position to Sea Lion but if you decide you don’t want to Sea Lion then that 30$ might be better spent on land units.

    Keep in mind that if you buy inf/art on G2 then it wont get to Moscow till G7.  So if you decide to Barbarossa on G2, then you either build 10 art plus mech and aim for G7 or you buy straight up mech/tanks and aim for G5 or G6.


  • Customizer

    Hello TheMethuselah,
    I have a few of my own ideas regarding Sealion, Barbarossa and the G1 purchase.
    First, a carrier and 2 transports is a good buy for Germany for several things. There is Sealion of course. You can also use them to amphibiously assault Leningrad when you decide to attack Russia. Depending on how much the US puts into the Atlantic, you can use them to take Gibraltar and maybe even help Italy in the Med and Africa.
    Also, assuming you wiped out the Royal Navy on round 1 and are using your Luftwaffe and maybe some subs to keep them from trying to rebuild their navy, you could end up getting an opportunistic Sealion. In other words, once you are all in on attacking Russia and you have passed on Sealion for G3 or G4, the UK player may get a little over confident, spend too much in Africa and end up leaving London under-defended. This might happen around round 5, 6 or 7. (One time, playing Germany, I took both Moscow and London on the same turn because UK had too much stuff in the Med.)
    As for Barbarossa, I know a lot of people like to rush into it round 2 (some even round 1), but I never attack Russia until at least round 3. I also don’t do the “strafe” of Yugoslavia. As Germany, I always take Yugoslavia round 1 then move things into position on the border round 2. This also allows me to bring the 4 Bulgarians up to Romania to join in on the attack and any surviving tanks and mechs from France will get over to the east as well.
    Sometimes I will even wait until round 4. I will buy a carrier and 2 transports round 1. Then I will buy infantry and artillery for round 2. I will also use those transports to move some of the infantry and artillery to Norway so they can go over to Finland. Then round 3 I will buy tanks and mechs while moving infantry/artillery to the border. Then on round 4, I will attack on 4 fronts:
    Finland > Karelia
    Poland > Baltic States
    Hungary > E. Poland
    Romania > Bessarabia
    If Russia decides to put up defense on the border, it will cost me some losses but I get to kill a lot of Russia’s strength. If they start pulling everything back, then I have a really large force marching it’s way across Russia which is nearly unstoppable.
    This will usually be a win for me in Russia even if they stack Moscow, although it does depend on dice and what the US/UK are able to do in the west. That can be a problem. On a couple of occasions I beat Russia down while the Western Allies captured Berlin. It sucks when your capital is threatened and all your hardware is a thousand miles to the east.



  • Oh man, these are some excellent ideas for me to mull over…

    1. No buy on G1 sounds crazier than I suspect it actually is. Follow up with either 10Mech/10Tank or a huge navy after watching the Allies trip over themselves.

    2. The goal of flexibility on G1 seems to be forcing UK to turtle. Do most UK players respect the sealion threat and turtle and/or avoid Taranto in response? Or is the flexibility pointless since you’re planning on Barbarossa anyway: better to just start buying ground?

    3. Does the Russian T1 buy matter as much as I’ve worried about it? Inf/Art, Mech/Tank, Air?? Until Germany commits to Barbarossa, fast units are just so enticing…

    4. What about bomber buys on G1/2? I’ve seen that in a couple forum games I looked at and wasn’t sure exactly what the idea there was. Africa beat-down or just a flexible buy?

    Sorry for all the questions. I probably just need to play more and theory craft less, but it’s a lot harder to find a whole day to hammer out a game!


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015

    @knp7765:

    Hello TheMethuselah,
    I have a few of my own ideas regarding Sealion, Barbarossa and the G1 purchase.
    First, a carrier and 2 transports is a good buy for Germany for several things. There is Sealion of course. You can also use them to amphibiously assault Leningrad when you decide to attack Russia. Depending on how much the US puts into the Atlantic, you can use them to take Gibraltar and maybe even help Italy in the Med and Africa.
    Also, assuming you wiped out the Royal Navy on round 1 and are using your Luftwaffe and maybe some subs to keep them from trying to rebuild their navy, you could end up getting an opportunistic Sealion. In other words, once you are all in on attacking Russia and you have passed on Sealion for G3 or G4, the UK player may get a little over confident, spend too much in Africa and end up leaving London under-defended. This might happen around round 5, 6 or 7. (One time, playing Germany, I took both Moscow and London on the same turn because UK had too much stuff in the Med.)
    As for Barbarossa, I know a lot of people like to rush into it round 2 (some even round 1), but I never attack Russia until at least round 3. I also don’t do the “strafe” of Yugoslavia. As Germany, I always take Yugoslavia round 1 then move things into position on the border round 2. This also allows me to bring the 4 Bulgarians up to Romania to join in on the attack and any surviving tanks and mechs from France will get over to the east as well.
    Sometimes I will even wait until round 4. I will buy a carrier and 2 transports round 1. Then I will buy infantry and artillery for round 2. I will also use those transports to move some of the infantry and artillery to Norway so they can go over to Finland. Then round 3 I will buy tanks and mechs while moving infantry/artillery to the border. Then on round 4, I will attack on 4 fronts:
    Finland > Karelia
    Poland > Baltic States
    Hungary > E. Poland
    Romania > Bessarabia
    If Russia decides to put up defense on the border, it will cost me some losses but I get to kill a lot of Russia’s strength. If they start pulling everything back, then I have a really large force marching it’s way across Russia which is nearly unstoppable.
    This will usually be a win for me in Russia even if they stack Moscow, although it does depend on dice and what the US/UK are able to do in the west. That can be a problem. On a couple of occasions I beat Russia down while the Western Allies captured Berlin. It sucks when your capital is threatened and all your hardware is a thousand miles to the east.

    I think you have strong arguments for this, but what do you do with Japan? I assume no DOW for J1-3?


  • Customizer

    Well, in most of our games, Japan usually waits until turn 3 to attack, mainly to keep the US out of the war as long as possible.
    However, a J1 DOW can work out very well. When Japan attacks round 1, it often throws the Allies in the Pacific out of sorts. Also, that tends to make the US concentrate more on Japan which leaves Germany to deal with Russia while only having to watch out for what UK does. Plus, Italy will take a lot of the UK’s attention.



  • I actually like to build a carrier, destroyer, and sub instead of carrier and 2 transports for G1. I find it’s a much more convincing Sea Lion threat because chances are you’re going to lose the battleship you took to the channel in the opening attacks, which leaves your Baltic fleet pretty thin. As to what happens when I accidentally take Yugo in the opening round… I always pray that this doesn’t happen, and it usually doesn’t. If it did, I think I would just prepare for G3 Barbarossa instead. In either case though my buys would be no different. G2 onwards is nothing but mech infantry and tanks until you get near Moscow and then switch to planes just before the attack to get everything in possible.


  • 2019 2018 2017

    @creeping-deth87:

    chances are you’re going to lose the battleship you took to the channel in the opening attacks, which leaves your Baltic fleet pretty thin

    You can also use the battleship for the SZ 111 attack and retreat it after one round. The British are then typically left with a damaged battleship that can’t escape because SZ 111 has no harbor.


  • Customizer

    @Herr:

    @creeping-deth87:

    chances are you’re going to lose the battleship you took to the channel in the opening attacks, which leaves your Baltic fleet pretty thin

    You can also use the battleship for the SZ 111 attack and retreat it after one round. The British are then typically left with a damaged battleship that can’t escape because SZ 111 has no harbor.

    That is usually where I send the German battleship, SZ 111. My attack on the Channel is all planes and maybe a couple of subs. Although, it has backfired on me when the fighter in Scotland doesn’t scramble and I get very good hits as Germany and end up sinking all the UK ships. Then my poor battleship is stuck all alone in SZ 111.
    A good part of that scenario is it gives UK another target, but they have to commit planes to sink it (usually at least 2). That’s less UK planes bothering me somewhere else.


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