Simplifying units interactions of Transports, Submarines, Destroyers & planes


  • 2016 2015 '14 Customizer

    @Baron:

    My first impressions are that 1 DD:1 Sub combined with Subs surprise strike makes Destroyer weaker than Subs.

    On opening moves, German’s two atlantic Subs were very successful because 1 single preemptive hit was enough to sunk the destroyer without any retaliation. This left a weak Transport defending @1 against two Subs.

    The USA’s DD+planes easily get rid of 1 atlantic Subs in the first round (the other sub submerge) but, again, the surviving DD was no match against the 2 remaining U-boats (1 which was able to submerge in the previous battle and the other coming from the previous assault on UK’s Battleship.) The destroyer was again sunk by a preemptive strike.

    So, attacking Subs were already deadlier on the same IPCs basis than Destroyer.
    But, in any numerical advantage over DDs, it is even more deadlier if DDs cannot retaliate.
    And compared to Subs against Subs, in which all defendings Subs still keep their roll @1, it seems very strange and quite unhistorical: Subs can retaliate while Destroyers can’t.

    To Der Kuenstler,
    I’m wondering if you get a similar issue with your Subs on the 1:1 DD’s blocking capacity?
    And, if not, why?
    Is it because of your Classic transports, used as first casualties, thus letting DDs retaliate?
    Or because in your play-test all Subs were going Convoy raiding instead of chasing DDs and TPs?
    Or maybe, you didn’t see this as an issue?

    In my house rules if one sub attacks one DD, the DD still takes away all of the sub’s special abilities - it does not get a free shot - it fights as regular. If 2 subs attack one DD, the DD takes away the special abilities of one of the subs, so only one sub gets a first shot attack.

    The way to keep subs under control with the 1:1 rule is not to let them outnumber your DDs. The US and Britain can both buy DDs vs Germans subs so this shouldn’t be a problem for them. Also, the DD’s should be aggressive and go attack every sub they can see with plane backup - that way the subs are vulnerable defending @ 1 and likely to get killed before they can escape. Â



  • _In my house rules if one sub attacks one DD, the DD still takes away all of the sub’s special abilities - it does not get a free shot - it fights as regular. If 2 subs attack one DD, the DD takes away the special abilities of one of the subs, so only one sub gets a first shot attack.

    The way to keep subs under control with the 1:1 rule is not to let them outnumber your DDs. The US and Britain can both buy DDs vs Germans subs so this shouldn’t be a problem for them. Also, the DD’s should be aggressive and go attack every sub they can see with plane backup - that way the subs are vulnerable defending @ 1 and likely to get killed before they can escape._
    You can also used something like: Before the sub attack, Destroyer roll dice and if you find it you can destroy it.
    Only the surviving sub can shoot.

    AL



  • Also for the one’s who used the wolf pack.
    I think it must be used only againt cargo and/or transport…
    Not against warships.

    AL



  • Geez…I read a lot of thing about the sub and not easy to find the good solution and compromise.
    But I don’t buy… sub shoot airplane. What was the % of success of AA sub against a fighter?

    AL


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    @crusaderiv:

    What was the % of success of AA sub against a fighter?

    In real life, the chances were minimal.  WWII subs in general had rather weak anti-aircraft armament; their main defense against air attack was to submerge.

    During the second half of WWII, sometime after the mid-1943 turning point that saw the Allies finally get the upper hand in the Battle of the Atlantic, one of Admiral Doenitz’s tactical responses was to order U-boats to start fighting it out with aircraft on the surface rather than diving.  I think there were even some U-boats that were given upgraded AAA firepower for that pupose.  This tactic proved a failure, however, because Allied planes simply kept the surfaced U-boat in sight while staying out of AAA range, and relayed the sub’s position to any friendly surface warships in the area.  In a surfaced-sub-versus-plane engagement, it’s the plane that controls the range because it’s much faster than the sub.  Only a few planes were shot down by the Germans when this tactic was introduced, until the Allies adjusted to the situation.



  • one of Admiral Doenitz’s tactical responses was to order U-boats to start fighting it out with aircraft on the surface rather than diving.  I think there were even some U-boats that were given upgraded AAA firepower for that pupose.  This tactic proved a failure,

    Right, I read the same thing that’s why I don’t agree with sub can shoot airplane.
    In my rules, plane (Sea plane, light bomber and some bomber) can attack sub but airplane must find it before.
    So it gives the opportunity to sub to retreat. (submerge).

    AL


  • 2016 2015 '14 Customizer

    @crusaderiv:

    In my rules, plane (Sea plane, light bomber and some bomber) can attack sub but airplane must find it the before.
    So it gives the opportunity to sub to retreat. (submerge).

    AL

    Pretty good, except for the extra dice roll. In my rules, during any round of battle when all attackers miss the sub, the sub can withdraw up to its full remaining movement instead of firing back. So if a fighter is attacking at “3”, 1-3 it hits the sub, 4-6 the sub gets away. (Or you could say the fighter couldn’t find it - same result.)



  • the sub can withdraw up to its full remaining movement instead of firing back.

    Same as me when sub are under attack……
    But before sub could retreat and back in another sea zone but I think I’ll change that.
    Sub must submerge in the sea zone where he was before the combat.

    AL


  • 2017 2016

    @Der:

    @Baron:

    My first impressions are that 1 DD:1 Sub combined with Subs surprise strike makes Destroyer weaker than Subs.

    On opening moves, German’s two atlantic Subs were very successful because 1 single preemptive hit was enough to sunk the destroyer without any retaliation. This left a weak Transport defending @1 against two Subs.

    The USA’s DD+planes easily get rid of 1 atlantic Subs in the first round (the other sub submerge) but, again, the surviving DD was no match against the 2 remaining U-boats (1 which was able to submerge in the previous battle and the other coming from the previous assault on UK’s Battleship.) The destroyer was again sunk by a preemptive strike.

    So, attacking Subs were already deadlier on the same IPCs basis than Destroyer.
    But, in any numerical advantage over DDs, it is even more deadlier if DDs cannot retaliate.
    And compared to Subs against Subs, in which all defendings Subs still keep their roll @1, it seems very strange and quite unhistorical: Subs can retaliate while Destroyers can’t.

    To Der Kuenstler,
    I’m wondering if you get a similar issue with your Subs on the 1:1 DD’s blocking capacity? And, if not, why?
    Is it because of your Classic transports, used as first casualties, thus letting DDs retaliate?
    Or because in your play-test all Subs were going Convoy raiding instead of chasing DDs and TPs?
    Or maybe, you didn’t see this as an issue?

    In my house rules if one sub attacks one DD, the DD still takes away all of the sub’s special abilities - it does not get a free shot - it fights as regular. If 2 subs attack one DD, the DD takes away the special abilities of one of the subs, so only one sub gets a first shot attack.
    The way to keep subs under control with the 1:1 rule is not to let them outnumber your DDs. The US and Britain can both buy DDs vs Germans subs so this shouldn’t be a problem for them. Also, the DD’s should be aggressive and go attack every sub they can see with plane backup - that way the subs are vulnerable defending @ 1 and likely to get killed before they can escape.

    Thanks DK,
    I bolded the main points.
    Basically, you tell to not worry the overall situation is in favour of 2 Allies in Atlantic against Germany.
    You still use Classic transport, right?
    This also help to have a better defense when TPs are sacrificed before DDs.
    OK.

    Another way to keep balance between Subs and Destroyers on unit scale, I would suggest this:
    Since for 24 IPCs you can oppose 4 Subs against 3 DDs,
    an approximation could be one Destroyer group of x unit can block x+1 Sub units.
    x DDs block x+1 Subs.
    So 1 DD blocks 2 Subs, 2 DDs blocks 3 Subs, 3 DDs blocks 4 Subs, etc.

    It’s not as elegant than 1 DD:1 Sub but it can somehow resolve the weakness of Destroyers in small scale naval combat.
    In addition, this resolves the incongruity of Subs being hit and still able to react with a preemptive Def @1 compared to a Destroyer hit by a surprise strike and unable to defend @2.


  • 2017 2016

    Another way to increase a better defense is a compromise for taken last transport A0 D1.
    Only Subs hit can be allocated to transport before warships.

    This can somehow re-enact Subwarfare against Transport and Destroyers reaction to attacking Subs.

    I know it is not going in the way of simplifying however.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13

    YA.  You’ll have to go back and change title to Multifling rules for interactions of transports, Submarines, Destroyers and Planes.  😉



  • YA. You’ll have to go back and change title to Multifling rules for interactions of transports, Submarines, Destroyers and Planes.

    :-D….


  • 2016 2015 '14 Customizer

    @Baron:

    Another way to keep balance between Subs and Destroyers on unit scale, I would suggest this:

    I really don’t think you’ll have to worry about it. The German player has bigger fish to fry (holding off Russia). If the German player buys enough subs to clear the Atlantic, he would have to do it at the expense of losing the East Front. Subs are cool to play with, but they don’t take land, so they won’t win the game for you.


  • 2017 2016

    @SS:

    YA. You’ll have to go back and change title to Multifling rules for interactions of transports, Submarines, Destroyers and Planes.  😉

    @Der:

    @Baron:

    Another way to keep balance between Subs and Destroyers on unit scale, I would suggest this:

    I really don’t think you’ll have to worry about it. The German player has bigger fish to fry (holding off Russia). If the German player buys enough subs to clear the Atlantic, he would have to do it at the expense of losing the East Front. Subs are cool to play with, but they don’t take land, so they won’t win the game for you.

    I wrote the other ways to solve the problem (if it was one) but I think I will follow your advice DK, thanks.

    I didn’t abandon the hope of having something simple. 🙂
    This thread can have many posts and many ways of trying to make it simpler and balance.

    In fact, increasing the strength of the Subs compared to DDs is probably balanced by keeping a real Classic transport which can be used anytime as a fodder unit.

    That’s a good news.

    So, Transports behavior in combat will be simpler and a bit more according to historical Subwarfare.

    Subs will get more occasions of doing surprise strike keeping 1 DD:1 Sub. This makes for more funny situations instead of a scripted casualty scenario.

    I would also say that in my game, we play with Escort Carrier (A1 D1 C11, ASV as DD, 1 plane on board), and this CVE unit already make harder time for Subs. And even if a CVE is sunk by a surprise strike, the plane on board can still retaliate on the Subs in that given round.

    In addition, Subs are no more immune against planes without DDs, making Subs weaker in this perspective.



  • I didn’t abandon the hope of having something simple.

    I think I found it….


  • 2017 2016

    @crusaderiv:

    I didn’t abandon the hope of having something simple.

    I think I found it….

    Go ahead, I’m curious.
    What is your idea?


  • 2017 2016

    @Baron:

    @SS:

    YA. You’ll have to go back and change title to Multifling rules for interactions of transports, Submarines, Destroyers and Planes.😉

    @Der:

    @Baron:

    Another way to keep balance between Subs and Destroyers on unit scale, I would suggest this:

    I really don’t think you’ll have to worry about it. The German player has bigger fish to fry (holding off Russia). If the German player buys enough subs to clear the Atlantic, he would have to do it at the expense of losing the East Front. Subs are cool to play with, but they don’t take land, so they won’t win the game for you.

    I wrote the other ways to solve the problem (if it was one) but I think I will follow your advice DK, thanks.

    I didn’t abandon the hope of having something simple. 🙂
    This thread can have many posts and many ways of trying to make it simpler and balance.

    In fact, increasing the strength of the Subs compared to DDs is probably balanced by keeping a real Classic transport which can be used anytime as a fodder unit.

    That’s a good news.

    So, Transports behavior in combat will be simpler and a bit more according to historical Subwarfare.

    Subs will get more occasions of doing surprise strike keeping 1 DD:1 Sub. This makes for more funny situations instead of a scripted casualty scenario.

    I would also say that in my game, we play with Escort Carrier (A1 D1 C11, ASV as DD, 1 plane on board), and this CVE unit already make harder time for Subs. And even if a CVE is sunk by a surprise strike, the plane on board can still retaliate on the Subs in that given round.

    In addition, Subs are no more immune against planes without DDs, making Subs weaker in this perspective.

    I just realized I have another way of minimizing the impact of the offensive superiority of Subs over Destroyer on the same IPCs basis.

    I will implement with the Classic transport, this special Destroyer’s retreat move that I already formulated in the opening posts:

    Anti-Sub Patrol Mission
    Since Destroyers are mainly escorting and patrolling against Submarines, when moving to attack at least one Submarine, Destroyers get a special retreat move:
    even if there is no more enemy warship in a once embattled sea zone, attacking Destroyers can retreat 1 sea zone from where they came.

    In this manner, if a few Destroyer units need to hunt a Subs group, Destroyers will not be left on their own in the SZ.
    They somehow get the possibility to also protect vulnerable surface vessels which can be needed in a specific SZ, usually not the same in which are the ennemy’s Subs.

    So, Destroyers being much faster than Subs have more mobility to play their dual roles in the Anti-subwarfare: escort and sub hunter.


  • 2017 2016

    Here is a way of phrasing KNP’s Subs submerge after DD and planes makes an attack.

    @cousin_joe:

    2. WHENEVER a SUB is due to roll (either in attack or defence), it ALWAYS has the option to submerge instead
    -note the word ALWAYS. What this means is, is that at most, a SUB would only have to endure 1 round of opposing rolls.
    (Currently, they are forced to stay surfaced every round as long as an opposing DD is in play.)
    -DDs still delay the SUBs roll til later in the round, however, the SUBs can submerge even if the DD is present (just not immediately at the start of combat)
    -This will significantly increase SUB survival.

    Or instead:
    2. Whenever a SUB is due to roll (either in attack or defence), it ALWAYS has the option to submerge instead
    -opposing DDs still cancel 1st strike, however, they do not cancel a SUBs ability to submerge
    -SUBs would still have to endure at least 1 round of combat if a DD is present (but at least not multiple rounds)

    In essence, this means that instead of firing in the first round, a blocked Sub submerge during the defenders regular combat roll phase.

    This makes for 2 ways:
    One in which sub commanders wait to roll his defense dice waiting to see if it gets hit and, if not, can decide to submerge.
    And the other:
    During the first combat round, the Subs retaliate, then at the start of the second round (during opening phase) the subs retrieve his capacity to submerge and can do it instead of being under ennemy’s shots.



  • Baron…I just send you the rules…

    AL


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13

    Oh No!  😢



  • Oh No!

    You can’t keep it for you… :evil:


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13

    Did you send him 1 rule or the whole set of rules ?



  • The whole refresh rule…


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13

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  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13

    No wonder he hasn’t repled in awhile.   😄 😄 😄  Just wait its comin.  😄 😄 😄
    Maybe now you’ll get some other people to play it and get some feedback.


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