Simplifying units interactions of Transports, Submarines, Destroyers & planes

  • '17 '16

    According to your HR combat values, the Sub will be more popular than Destroyer. No need to buy them, just planes for 2 more IPCs to kick out Subs.
    Subs are more dangerous than the OOB DD, since it shoots down planes.
    The less important historical feel can be disturbing for my part.
    I could live with Subs defending @1 against all units, but @2 vs planes I couldn’t.

    Maybe we should discuss about the impact or no consequences of the naval Cannon fodder effect.

    @a44bigdog:

    Most ASW of the time was the good old Mark I Mod zero eyeball. WWII subs were surface ships that could submerge. They spent the majority of their time on the surface. The electric engines used when submerged had a very limited speed and run time before the sub had to surface to recharge the batteries. Ariel observation was what lead the Germans to develop the snorkel a device for running the diesels while underwater.

    Submarines also could and did engage aircraft. The preferred method however was to dive. Not because the deck guns mounted on the subs could not adequately engage the aircraft but that once spotted other aircraft and if close surface vessels would be called in. By diving the sub could flee the area.

    This page has the loses by cause for u-boats. Note that almost HALF or to aircraft.
    http://www.uboat.net/fates/losses/cause.htm


  • Baron,

    What is your subpen rule if you have one. Thought I seen you post once. Can’t seem to locate it.

  • '17 '16

    I don’t have any.
    What is yours?
    How does it become an important aspect of the subs rules?


  • Its posted in Global War title under Major complexes.

  • '17 '16

    Thanks.
    It’s adding another element of complexity for those which are found of historical background games.
    For now it is outside the scope of this actual thread on simplifying things to improve the overall A&A experience.
    I keep your Sub pen rules in my backpocket. It may be useful.


  • I don’t think you can make rules that is both simple and historical correct. The hex and counter games have search rolls and sequenced fire, which make the games complex, not simple and fast to play. Xenon World at war have search rolls, and that makes sense. The ocean is a vast place, and the enemy is moving around behind that foggy horizon, so you need to roll a search roll before you find him, but then the enemy too can roll a search roll to avoid you. But if you find each other, then roll for combat. Land combat is different, you know the enemy is dug in behind that hill or city. So maybe a search roll will difference naval combat from land combat. Aircrafts will of course make for automatic find. But it will be a game in the game.

    Another and more simple way is to differ the movement values.

    Subs move 1, and can submerge from combat, but not retreat to another seazone.
    Tranny move 2, and can not retreat to another seazone. If the escort retreats, the trannies are sittin ducks
    Surface warships move 3, and can retreat to another seazone.

    This model the importance of speed and range in naval operations.

    To avoid trannies being fodder, let them cost 10 and defend on 1 against air.

    And do you really want to use a sub as fodder when it move 1 space only in a turn, and a Destroyer move 3 spaces ? I know I wouldn’t.


  • I also think you should have search planes to find ships.
    Small searchplane C10 A0 D2 M4  1d6 roll of 3 or less finds ships.
    Big searchplane  C12 A0 D2 M6    1d6 rol of 3 or less finds ships.


  • @SS:

    I also think you should have search planes to find ships.
    Small searchplane C10 A0 D2 M4  1d6 roll of 3 or less finds ships.
    Big searchplane  C12 A0 D2 M6     1d6 rol of 3 or less finds ships.

    What part of #Simplifying# is it you don’t understand ?

    Besides of that, I love your idea  8-)


  • Just making a suggestion to your last post about finding ships. When it comes to simplifying a game no such luck when it comes to Global 39 games or shorter games for me. Play with all the advance pieces in all games. So I went off topic a bit.  :-D

  • '17 '16

    Hi Narvik,
    a more historically detailled game should have such Air and Sea Anti-Sub Search Mission.
    But at our Theatre of Operations level, it is more abstract.
    DK’s 1:1 for blocking Submerge makes for the difficulty on finding Subs.
    Even when you bring a lot of planes, the Subs casualty will be restricted to the number of DDs.
    With Knp idea, formulated differently in Running Silent, Running Deep,  the single attack round allows better odds of survival for Pinned or Spotted Subs.

  • '17 '16

    I would add that even the Subs casualty rules Last Warship Chosen is another way to make Subs survive alike an harder Sub spotting.
    In mixed fleet against mixed fleet, there is no more Subs destruction Festival in the first rounds.
    Kind of Sub stealth ability.
    The primary targets are surface warships letting Subs survival easier on both sides for the end of such naval battle because most players will not sacrifice their big damaged BBs and Carriers to destroy enemy’s Subs.

  • '17 '16

    @SS:

    I also think you should have search planes to find ships.
    Small searchplane C10 A0 D2 M4  1d6 roll of 3 or less finds ships.
    Big searchplane  C12 A0 D2 M6    1d6 rol of 3 or less finds ships.

    Having no attack value these units cannot compete against reg Fgs and Bombers, if the same cost.

  • Customizer

    @Baron:

    According to your HR combat values, the Sub will be more popular than Destroyer. No need to buy them, just planes for 2 more IPCs to kick out Subs.
    Subs are more dangerous than the OOB DD, since it shoots down planes.
    The less important historical feel can be disturbing for my part.
    I could live with Subs defending @1 against all units, but @2 vs planes I couldn’t.

    Maybe we should discuss about the impact or no consequences of the naval Cannon fodder effect.

    Baron this HR has progressed beyond the simple blurbs here and there. I’ve also added bombard to DDs. A DD still can stop subs so yes you would still want them. Again I’ll point to my arguement against realism, historical realism attemps, and trying to correlate real-world numbers to units. Eventually the numbers go back to having 3 total types of units land , sea, and air which IMO is no fun. There is a game called Attack! Which implements this type of system you can get it for $15-20 on Amazon. It’s not exactly the same but comes close.


  • Sorry wrong plane cost.
    Sm search plane = C6 A0 D2 M4  Only fighters can attack search planes.
    Lg search plane =  C8 A0 D2 M6  Only fighters can attack search planes.
    Both search planes can retreat after first round of combat.

  • '17 '16

    @toblerone77:

    Baron this HR has progressed beyond the simple blurbs here and there. I’ve also added bombard to DDs. A DD still can stop subs so yes you would still want them. Again I’ll point to my arguement against realism, historical realism attemps, and trying to correlate real-world numbers to units.

    Ok. It is just not clear what was OOB for Destroyers and Subs and what has changed.
    The Submarines can still Submerge and get First Strike, right?
    A single Destroyer blocks any number of Subs, right?
    This affect both Submerge and First Strike capacity.
    1 DD can still be used as blocker against an infinite number of units, including Subs?

    So a Sub being attacked by planes only could Submerge instead of rolling a Defense @2, right?
    But, if a Destroyer is along planes, then a Sub, being blocked, can only roll a Defense @2, and if it gets a hit, the DD will destroyed first if the owner choose to (because it is cheaper).
    Otherwise, such a Sub cannot flee (submerge) until the destroyer is sunk, right?

  • Customizer

    Baron the 888 rule is just part of a larger set of rules. In fact it is more so part of more than one set of rules varying in complexity. When I get more time I will elaborate more. The most simplistic you could get is to simply allow planes to hit subs and call it “tough cheese” if they or force a submerge. Again I’ll elborate later when I’m not at work.

  • '17 '16

    @toblerone77:

    Baron the 888 rule is just part of a larger set of rules. In fact it is more so part of more than one set of rules varying in complexity. When I get more time I will elaborate more. The most simplistic you could get is to simply allow planes to hit subs and call it “tough cheese” if they or force a submerge. Again I’ll elborate later when I’m not at work.

    Fine.
    To understand it and evaluted by itself, you should start a specific thread for this 8-8-8 set of rules.
    Did you get an occasion to play-tested it somehow?

  • '17 '16

    @toblerone77:

    Again I’ll point to my arguement against realism, historical realism attemps, and trying to correlate real-world numbers to units. Eventually the numbers go back to having 3 total types of units land , sea, and air which IMO is no fun. There is a game called Attack! Which implements this type of system you can get it for $15-20 on Amazon. It’s not exactly the same but comes close.

    If we want a simple wargame, we play RISK.
    A&A Subs rules have changed many times since 1984, Classic. (See the quote at the end of this post.)
    And many rules variants exists for the Board Game or the Hasbro Computer game.

    It is part of the challenge to find a way to improve the actual game to keep as much as possible both historical feel and a flowing game mechanics.
    Since it is a figurative wargame with sculpts, it is natural to intuitively gives them some caracteristics of the real weapon the sculpt represent.
    And A&A is also a beer and breztel wargames, it mustn’t be too much complex and each sequence mechanics shouldn’t be too long either.

    It always end with a compromise toward one side or the other of the spectrum.

    All I wanted to know about my opening post is**, from experienced players POV, what is the most disturbing aspect of this whole HR which tried to solve the 3 aberrations issues?**

    This points toward three aberrations which creates both complex games situations and contrary to a consistent historical simulation:
    1- Transport could have been taken last (without too much turmoils ) but the no combat value _makes an infinite number of transports destroyed by a single combat uni_t.

    2- A single Destroyer can block an infinite number of Surprise Strike attacking Submarines.

    3- The Destroyer can block an infinite number of defending Submarines Submerge.
    So a massive number of Submarines can be destroyed (by a large air fleet and a single Destroyer) while the attacker can only lose one Destroyer.

    In addition, Planes cannot hit submarines without Destroyers, makes the Carriers very vulnerable against Submarines.
    While, historically, Escort carriers were specifically used in submarine warfare.

    Aircrafts and 1 destroyer combined with transports on offense against defending Submarines makes for complex situations which needs explicit FAQ.
    And some strange unhistorical impossibility to destroy Submarine units and no way of protecting transports against them.
    Making for auto-kill or immediate retreat.

    @Baron:

    Hi everyone,
    since the creation of A&A, the submarines rules receives a lot of modifications.
    The actual OOB rules on Sub warfare includes mostly 3 units: Sub, destroyers and planes.

    The Subs have 6 caracteristics:
    1-Stealth movement,
    2- First Strike,
    3- Submersible
    and
    4-cannot hit aircraft.

    A fifth one is derived from aircraft limitation: cannot be hit by aircraft.
    A sixth one is an offspring of the no control of SZ for Subs: prevent unescorted transports from offloading for an amphibious assault.

    Aircraft: cannot hit subs unless there is a friendly Destroyers which is taking part of the combat.

    Destroyer have an Anti-Sub Vessel (ASV) role which negates Subs capacities:
    mainly First Strike and Submerge.

    In addition, a Destroyer allows all friendly planes to hit submarines during combat.
    And also block Submarine stealth movement and force him to battle with DD in a given SZ.

    For reference, here is the OOB Submarine rules in different A&A versions:

    Classic:
    1st Ed. 1984: A2D2M2C8, attacking Subs get Surprise Strike, cannot submerge but can withdraw in another SZ, cannot hit air.
    2nd Ed. 1986: A2D2M2C8, attacking Subs get Surprise Strike, cannot submerge but can withdraw in another SZ, cannot hit air.
    3rd Ed. 1997: A2D2M2C8, attacking Subs get Surprise Strike, withdraw in another SZ, defending Sub can submerge in SZ at the end of the round, cannot hit air.

    Iron Blitz Edition by Hasbro and Microprose 1999, A&A 3rd Ed.:
    Sub: A2D2M2C8, Surprise Strike on attack only, can submerge in SZ at the end of the round, cannot hit air.
    Destroyer: A2D2M2C8 can retaliate even when hit by subs surprise strike and cancel Subs submerge.

    Pacific 2001 and Europe Edition 1999:
    Sub: A2D2M2C8, Surprise Strike on attack only, can submerge at the end of the round, cannot hit air, cannot be hit by air.
    Destroyer: A3D3M2C12, cancel Surprise Strike and allows planes to hit subs.

    Revised Edition 2004:
    Sub: A2D2M2C8, First Strike (attacker and defender), can submerge at the end of the round, cannot hit air.
    Destroyer: A3D3M2C12, cancel First Strike and Submerge.

    Anniversary Edition, AA50, 2008:
    Submarine: A2D1M2C6, First Strike, Submersible: can submerge in First Strike phase before regular cmbt, cannot hit air, cannot be hit by air.
    Destroyer: A2D2M2C8, cancel First Strike & Submerge and allows all planes to hit subs.

    1942.1 (2009) : Same as AA50.
    Pacific 1940 (2009) and Europe 1940 (2010): same as AA50.

    1942.2 (2012) : Same as AA50.
    Plus: prevent unescorted transports from offloading for an amphibious assault.

    Pacific 1940 and Europe 1940 2nd Ed. (2012): same as 1942.2.

    There is also an evolution of how to treat a Sea-Zone when a sub is present. But, it is also a complex matter, that I left for now.

    What I would like to develop is a different relation between aircrafts and submarines; so planes could be able to hit submarines without any destroyer unit.

    It will better depict the impact of aircrafts in WWII on Submarine warfare and I hope will create some new tactical situations for naval combat.

    I would like also to get rid of the aberration which is created when, paired to others, 1 destroyer unit can give a specific ability to an infinite number of units.
    In this specific case:
    1 Destroyer gives to an infinite number of planes the ability to hit subs,
    1 Destroyer is able to negate the First Strike and Submerge of an infinite number of subs.
    For instance, this creates the kind of aberration where 1 DD and a large air fleet can destroy numerous subs and the attacker can only loose 1 single DD unit.
    Here someone which said it better than me:
    @Fishmoto37:

    @Gargantua:

    So you’ll have to match my sub purchases with dd purchases? And I defend at a 1, whilst you are just trying to detect me? I don’t know how well that would work… seems to hard to kill the subs.

    Well Gar, it is harder to kill subs as we found out in our last 1939 game. That is the whole point. We want to make the subs a more effective unit. In the 1940G OOB rules you can have a German wolf pack of six subs and an allied power can send one destroyer and half a dozen planes and just about wipe out all the subs in one combat round. That is just ludicrous!

  • Customizer

    Okay Baron here’s my take: I’ll leave my HRs out of the equation.

    To stop the problems with blocking of infinite subs by destroyers, take away the block ability and replace it with destroyers are immune to surprise strikes. Destroyers otherwise act just like surface warships.

    To counter this loss for the DD allow one opening sneak attack for subs and then all naval combat reverts to standard naval combat and all DD, Subs and aircraft are in standard naval combat. In other words DDs and subs act just like their other naval counterparts even when even against aircraft.

    For ASW for aircraft. It must be during regular Naval combat after the surprise attack OR the aircraft must “spot and hit” the sub when only aircraft are attacking. The aircraft must roll a hit the in the first round of combat, if not the sub escapes and simply remains on the board.

    You can use whatever stats you like for I’m not going to debate that aspect.

    In answer to your question, as an experienced player, the rules on subs, destroyers, transports and their interaction with aircraft as well as each other, has become laboriously over complicated especially to new players. Just look at the questions of new players submitted on this site daily. My take is to minimize naval complexity to the point where it is as easily understandable as ground combat.

    By minimizing the effects of any of these special units to a special one round ability against one another you streamline the combat sequence.


  • @Baron:

    In addition, Planes cannot hit submarines without Destroyers, makes the Carriers very vulnerable against Submarines.
    While, historically, Escort carriers were specifically used in submarine warfare.

    I don’t think the carriers went on sub hunting alone. I believe they were accompanied by some destroyers too.

    But, to your case.
    I think the sub should roll a preemptive first strike against the carrier.
    Then the planes should roll against the sub, and the carrier if it survived should roll too.
    With OOB rules only a surviving carrier is allowed to roll against the sub, the planes are not.

    The problem with your house rule is that 2 fighters that defend on 4 or less are likely to kill that sub, and that will probably prevent the sub from attacking, and making destroyers obsolete. A combo with 1 battleship, 1 carrier and 2 fighters, which is all allowed to kill that sub, will turn it into a suicide mission for the sub. And of course, who wants to buy destroyers anymore ?

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