Simplifying units interactions of Transports, Submarines, Destroyers & planes

  • '17 '16

    @Narvik:

    @Baron:

    In addition, Planes cannot hit submarines without Destroyers, makes the Carriers very vulnerable against Submarines.
    While, historically, Escort carriers were specifically used in submarine warfare.

    I don’t think the carriers went on sub hunting alone. I believe they were accompanied by some destroyers too.

    But, to your case.
    I think the sub should roll a preemptive first strike against the carrier.
    Then the planes should roll against the sub, and the carrier if it survived should roll too.
    With OOB rules only a surviving carrier is allowed to roll against the sub, the planes are not.

    Yes.

    That is exactly how it would be done with my HR if there is no Destroyer to protect the carrier.
    The 2 Fgs can destroy Subs but if the Subs get a hit then Carrier cannot retaliate (if it is a 1942.2 Carrier with a single hit).
    The interaction between Subs and planes is now simpler, as it was long time ago.

    As you say later, planes will be more dangerous (as before AA50) that’s why Subs need some way to be more efficient by themselves.
    I can say however that in OOB, a lot of Destroyers are protecting Carriers anyway.
    So, many times all planes can hit Subs.
    Hence for a First Round Subs Slaughtering Fest (on both sides when Subs are part of larger fleet).

    The 2 hits BB and Carrier are also OOB in G40.

    The increase defense for planes against Subs may not change a lot in real game playing.

    However, 5 Subs (30 IPCs) attacking 1 DD, 1 Carrier and 2 planes (8+16+20= 34 IPCs) are not more dangerous.
    In either case 5 Subs will make an attack roll but…
    In my HR, on the first round, 4 Subs get First Strike, this means that with a lucky 2 hits, the DD or the Carrier will not retaliate: 3 defense rolls.
    In OOB, all 4 units would have rolls on defense.

    In fact, this means that more First Strike allowed means a better odd of survival for Subs.

    I think this Destroyer blocks Sub on 1:1 can provides the way to balance the increase efficiency of planes.


    About why buying destroyer?
    In both 1942.2 or G40, if a Carrier received a hit, then planes can no more land on it whether because sunk (1942.2) or damaged (G40).
    In both cases, planes need to find a another landing place within 1 space. Otherwise, they ditch at sea.
    So Destroyer are still needed because planes on carrier still keeps a kind of Achilles heels at sea.

  • '17 '16

    @toblerone77:

    Okay Baron here’s my take: I’ll leave my HRs out of the equation.

    To stop the problems with blocking of infinite subs by destroyers, take away the block ability and replace it with destroyers are immune to surprise strikes. Destroyers otherwise act just like surface warships.

    To counter this loss for the DD allow one opening sneak attack for subs and then all naval combat reverts to standard naval combat and all DD, Subs and aircraft are in standard naval combat. In other words DDs and subs act just like their other naval counterparts even when even against aircraft.

    For ASW for aircraft. It must be during regular Naval combat after the surprise attack OR the aircraft must “spot and hit” the sub when only aircraft are attacking. The aircraft must roll a hit the in the first round of combat, if not the sub escapes and simply remains on the board.

    You can use whatever stats you like for I’m not going to debate that aspect.

    In answer to your question, as an experienced player, the rules on subs, destroyers, transports and their interaction with aircraft as well as each other, has become laboriously over complicated especially to new players. Just look at the questions of new players submitted on this site daily. My take is to minimize naval complexity to the point where it is as easily understandable as ground combat.

    By minimizing the effects of any of these special units to a special one round ability against one another you streamline the combat sequence.

    Thanks for answering.

    As far as I understand your Subs and DDs, it seems that you are going back exactly to the Official Rules from A&A Hasbro software, except Subs cannot hit aircraft.
    Subs were A2 D2 C8.

    My guess, is that most questions are due to historical counter-intuitive rules such as Planes need Destroyers and Transport have no combat value.

    Examples of 3 complex situations:
    1- Planes against Subs with Transports
    2- Planes and transport against Subs
    3- Submarines and Transport against Carrier and planes

    In most cases above, transport will be taken as casualty and not taken last, contrary to the Specific taken last rule…
    No kidding that a new player is lost and needs extended explained examples.

    In 1, Transport will be destroyed by planes and Subs will survive.
    In 2, Transport will be sunk by Subs, and planes can do nothing against Subs.
    In 3, if Carrier get a hit you sink a sub, while a plane will hit the transport. And the sub can only hit the carrier.

  • Customizer

    Actually when a sub is in general naval combat, meaning after the one time preemtive surprise strike. ALL units except obvious transport cargo are treated as combatants.

    The other option is to do this 1:1 ratio involving subs and destroyers.  It complicates things but I suppose it is more fair. As far a air vs. subs you can say “tough cheese” or roll for spotting.

    I dunno I guess you have to simply go with what your group agrees upon. If one wants to create a house rule for everyone or Larry that’s a tall order. I simply think there are mamny view points and perspectivesso not everyone is going to agree on everything. Even Krieghund has had ideas that have been passed over.

    Complicated doesn’t bother me with HRs necessarily.  But if you want simple I’d emulate land units when trying to simulate naval combat IF your looking to simplify.

  • '17 '16

    The other option is to do this 1:1 ratio involving subs and destroyers.
    It complicates things but I suppose it is more fair. As far a air vs. subs you can say “tough cheese” or roll for spotting.

    I don’t know if DK’s 1:1 complicated things or not.
    It is more intuitively understandable, like combined arms, such as Inf+Art, Fg+TcB or Tank+TcB. Easier to understand the rule. No need to read all exceptional case.
    2 cases: (blocked) pinned Subs or unpinned Subs.
    But on every combat round, each side must count how many DDs are blocking how many Subs, and how many Subs aren’t blocked.

    The spotting roll was never introduced in the Official A&A.
    World War II, The expansion have a complex but playable Spotting mechanics.
    It adds another layer of rolls, but allows to keep the basic unit combat value.

    However, such mechanics get complex according to the various naval units with Subs or not, and whether on offense or defense.

  • '17 '16

    But if you want simple I’d emulate land units when trying to simulate naval combat IF your looking to simplify.

    What do you have in mind?
    The simple casualty rule?
    No special interaction of units against opposing side?
    Much more?

  • '17 '16

    @toblerone77:

    If one wants to create a house rule for everyone or Larry that’s a tall order. I simply think there are many view points and perspectives so not everyone is going to agree on everything. Even Krieghund has had ideas that have been passed over.

    Complicated doesn’t bother me with HRs necessarily.

    Simply, I put my thread to make a fusion of many ideas.
    But, the one idea that really struck me as the very new idea is:
    to apply the taken last rule of transport to Subs in such a way that planes need no more destroyers and Subs didn’nt become a better and cheaper padding for protecting other warships than was destroyer.
    I was looking upon if anyone did think something similar before?

    The beginning of my relentless effort is about another aberration:
    4- A combined fleet on attack can sometimes do much damage to a defender with many Subs by not bringing his destroyer in the attack.
    That way, the planes will only attack surface warships (which are all costlier units than Subs).

    @critmonster:

    panzer: my point was that I cannot take hits from air to my subs unless you bring a destroyer so if you attack my fleet without a destroyer it is actually to your advantage because all your hits must be taken on my air force and capitol ships rather than taking them on my subs. I know that my subs get a “deadly” first shot (@1) without your DD but I hardly find that equitable, you sink my fleet (except subs) then move your DD over in non combat to neutralize them on my turn. I feel that as the controlling nation I should get to decide if they submerge. I am with Octo on this, I play the rules as stated and avoid house rules (except perhaps bids).

    Perhaps I have not played enough games to see the air/sub balance.

    What a strange gamey strategy:
    Bring less unit, so you increase your odds of making more damage to the enemy.
    Another counter-intuitive consequence of the OOB rules.

    More, bring all your Subs to be used as fodder, so you screen your other warships  against other defending subs (almost like DDs).

    With my HR, this aberration disappear: you bring more units (destroyers) it is better, than bringing less, to makes more damage on the enemy.
    And they are no way to use your own Subs to screen your own warships against enemy’s Subs if you doesn’t bring along DDs in a given attack.


    The real iconic and problematic unit is the Submarine.
    We all figure it can make some surprise attack and escape into the sea.

    I believe it can receive a special treatment.
    So I’d hoped much of the complex rules will turned around this unit and less around the others.

  • Customizer

    @Baron:

    But if you want simple I’d emulate land units when trying to simulate naval combat IF your looking to simplify.

    What do you have in mind?
    The simple casualty rule?
    No special interaction of units against opposing side?
    Much more?

    Baron I see several ways of going about solving issues with these units. However the needs of my group and the aims of my HRs may not work for others. Let me just say I’m working on creating a variant rather than a single house rule mostly when I speak.

    Frankly I’d need to write a book on all of my ideas and thoughts.

    Recently I’ve been teaching people how to play based on OOB rules, totally straight laced games. They are all intelligent and play tons of other games and play well. Guess what? Axis & Allies confuses the hell out of them. I could go further but will refrain because I’d have to write a book about it literally.

    Honestly I’m not sure what the goal or “endgame” is of this discussion. Your premise is well thought out but gathering a consensus is difficult and I simply don’t think any resolution would come simply due to differing perspectives and goals relating to what one wants from the game.

    It’s a good discussion nonetheless.


  • I spent most of yesterday to read me up on submarine warfare. It looks like most of the subs were sunk by land based fighters and medium bombers using rockets. So its obvious from a historical point of view that planes should be able to sink subs by themselves, without a present destroyer.

    I think the A&A Europe 1999 edition was the game that modelled the subs and convoys in the best way, too bad this mechanics were abandoned. Germany should start with lots of subs, and UK should start with lots of unprotected convoy zones. Then UK buy plenty of aircrafts and destroyers that sink the subs, faster than Germany can launch them. That is historical correct. That would work in a game starting in 1942, but not a global game starting in 1940, or 39.

    Still not satisfied with the HR suggestions so far, and the rationale being what Toblerone77 says, the people I play with are not experts, and do not easily understand rules that are too complex. The way some of you wright rules is pedantic and great if you are a layer or judge, but not to my beer drinking friends. So I need a better HR than the present suggestions.

    My suggestions so far, and with Raid rules where a damage marker are placed on the convoy box during the combat phase, and not during the owners collect income phase.

    Sub cost 8, move 2, A2, D2, roll a preemptive first strike and may submerge after any finished round of combat.
    Destroyer cost 8, move 3, A2, D2 and is immune to a subs first strike, so it rolls even if taken as casualty. Prevent a matching sub from submerging on a 1 to 1 basis
    Tranny cost 8, move 2, D1 against air only. So it still needs escort protection against subs and warships.
    Aircrafts and surface warships can attack and defend against subs even if no allied destroyer is present, but they cant prevent a sub from submerging.

    Ex
    1. Subs can decide to target a convoy box or join a naval combat.
    A convoy raid is a one time roll, and the eyes on each dice decide how many damage tokens you put on the convoy box.
    In this HR, a defending destroyer can only deny a preemptive shot against himself on a 1 to 1, not all preemptive shots against the whole fleet or convoy box.
    History shows that no matter how many escorts and warships protecting the convoy, the sub would always get a hit, so this is historical correct. But since a sub in this HR cost 8, and can only inflict a max of 6 IPC damage, since the dice only got 6 eyes, it would not be considered very clever to sacrifice an 8 IPC sub in trade for an average 3 IPC damage, when the convoy box is protected by a fleet. A clever player would probably not attack. But it should be an option.

    So in this case the sub choose to join the naval battle. Lets say 8 attacking subs roll dice, and this should be 8 preemptive first strike rolls. That means, the enemy warships that get taken as casualties, should not be allowed to return fire. But if you got 2 destroyers in that battle, you can choose to take them as casualties, and in that case they will return fire. But if you save them for next round, they can not deny the preemptive roll for the other ships. Now, if your 2 destroyers sank, and you only got planes left, then the planes can hit the subs without a destroyer, but the planes can not deny the subs to submerge after a finished round of combat.

    Another example. A lone sub sit in seazone 118. You can attack that sub with an aircraft, and you don’t need a present destroyer. But after one finished round of combat, that aircraft can not deny the sub to submerge. Only destroyers can deny subs to submerge, on a 1 to 1 basis

    Since trannies cost 8 and defend against air on a D1, they can now be taken as casualty any time. History has plenty of examples on trannies being used as blockade runners, thrown into minefields or coastal guns before the fleet comes, just to save the expansive capital ships. It should be the players choice what ship is fodder, not the rules

  • '17 '16

    @Narvik:

    I spent most of yesterday to read me up on submarine warfare. It looks like most of the subs were sunk by land based fighters and medium bombers using rockets. So its obvious from a historical point of view that planes should be able to sink subs by themselves, without a present destroyer.

    I think the A&A Europe 1999 edition was the game that modelled the subs and convoys in the best way, too bad this mechanics were abandoned. Germany should start with lots of subs, and UK should start with lots of unprotected convoy zones. Then UK buy plenty of aircrafts and destroyers that sink the subs, faster than Germany can launch them. That is historical correct. That would work in a game starting in 1942, but not a global game starting in 1940, or 39.

    Still not satisfied with the HR suggestions so far, and the rationale being what Toblerone77 says, the people I play with are not experts, and do not easily understand rules that are too complex. The way some of you wright rules is pedantic and great if you are a layer or judge, but not to my beer drinking friends. So I need a better HR than the present suggestions.

    My suggestions so far, and with Raid rules where a damage marker are placed on the convoy box during the combat phase, and not during the owners collect income phase.

    Sub cost 8, move 2, A2, D2, roll a preemptive first strike and may submerge after any finished round of combat.
    Destroyer cost 8, move 3, A2, D2 and is immune to a subs first strike, so it rolls even if taken as casualty. Prevent a matching sub from submerging on a 1 to 1 basis
    Tranny cost 8, move 2, D1 against air only. So it still needs escort protection against subs and warships.
    Aircrafts and surface warships can attack and defend against subs even if no allied destroyer is present, but they cant prevent a sub from submerging.

    Since trannies cost 8 and defend against air on a D1, they can now be taken as casualty any time. History has plenty of examples on trannies being used as blockade runners, thrown into minefields or coastal guns before the fleet comes, just to save the expansive capital ships. It should be the players choice what ship is fodder, not the rules

    Should we read: “most of the subs were sunk by land based fighters using rockets and medium bombers”?
    Based on my limited research, Fighters in itself were used to protect torpedoes bombers against Subs’ Flak or enemy’s planes.
    The kill was done by the Tactical Bomber special torpedoes or by direct bomb drop.

    the A&A Europe 1999 edition was the game that modelled the subs and convoys in the best way
    Indeed, Destroyers were a combination of Cruisers and DDs, A3D3M2C12, plus anti-sub.

    I will try to point out the critics I read on this OOB rule. (Which were one of the reason, there is a change in 1942.1 rules and 1940, 1st ed.)

    Does your Subs get Surprise Strike on attack and defense?

    For now, I suppose it is a YES.
    In your examples, you forget to put Subs against Subs with fleet but not destroyers.

    Most of the time, submarines will defend as well as a Destroyer against ennemy Subs.
    With this Subs mechanics, both attacking and defending Subs can rolls at the same preemptive First strike phase.
    It has virtually the same effect as the DD immune to a subs first strike, a Destroyer can roll before being sunk.

    This virtually makes Subs more dangerous than Destroyer and able to be the real padding of the sea for costlier units, since both can be taken as casualty by planes.

    Destroyer are better against planes, with a small fleet it is important.
    With a bigger one, Subs can do the cannon fodder against aircrafts while planes and carriers are taking care of incoming planes.
    And since, Subs can only Submerge after the first round, you can use Subs on a one time shot to destroy some of them before they submerge.

    Maybe the 3 spaces move of Destroyer can be appealing but DD is not needed to block Subs. Subs can do the job.

    This gamey-way of using Subs instead of DDs seems a problem, don’t you think?


    With a M3 DD, it is historically inaccurate (compared to the range of Cruiser, BB and carrier) and your are not simplifying thing either.

    On the other part, making the transport @1 against planes only is more historical but it is a complexification.

    So, it goes for a better detailed Transport only but create some special situations which would need explanations.
    Like using a transport unit as fodder but rolling for defense on and off, according to the composition of the attaking units.

    A small correction: “sacrifice an 8 IPC sub in trade for an average 3 IPC damage”, 1+2+3+4+5+6= 21 /6= 3.5 IPCs

    About the Convoy Box, I don’t understand what is the role of DD and if Subs can do something against DDs or only roll Convoy damage.

    Finally, “The way some of you wright rules is pedantic and great if you are a layer or judge, but not to my beer drinking friends. So I need a better HR than the present suggestions.”
    Sorry about my writing style, if english was my first language, I could do better to be simpler.
    I wrongly supposed that using the OOB rules as a starting point was clearer.
    I can just add don’t reject this HR because of how it is written (I would be sad) but for is substantial issues.
    Once you understand it, if you don’t like some of his features or find it still too complex, it is all OK.
    Just don’t kill the messenger but judge the HR for itself. It’s all I ask.

  • '17 '16

    I realized that a real play-test should have less additional rule patch. If it works with less this would be cool enough.

    So, here is what I keep for the test.
    I’ll go with Classics TP A0 D1 M2 C8.
    Subs A2 D1 M2 C6, with OOB Submerge, Surprise Strike, etc.
    I keep this single casualty rules:
    Subs can be chosen as casualty if there is no eligible surface warship.

    Destroyer A2 D2 M2 C8, as DK’s HR: blocks Subs abilities on a 1:1 basis.

    Planes can hit Subs anytime, DD not needed.

    That is the core of my HR to simplify interactions.
    Compared to OOB, there is still only 1 special casualty rule instead of being applied to Transport, it is for Subs.

    If it works in Playtest, is funny and units are somewhat balance, then there is no need for additional rules I intended to use in my Opening Post.
    Mainly Knp’s 1 round before Submerge and
    special retreat move for DDs and Subs.

    Could it be enough simplified to everybodys’ taste?

  • '17 '16

    @Baron:

    So, here is what I keep for the test.
    I’ll go with Classics TP A0 D1 M2 C8.
    Subs A2 D1 M2 C6, with OOB Submerge, Surprise Strike, etc.
    I keep this single casualty rules:
    Subs can be chosen as casualty if there is no eligible surfaces warships.

    Destroyer A2 D2 M2 C8, as DK’s HR: blocks Subs abilities on a 1:1 basis.

    Planes can hit Subs anytime, DD not needed.

    That is the core of my HR to simplify interactions.
    Compared to OOB, there is still only 1 special casualty rule instead of being applied to Transport, it is for Subs.

    Here is the missing part of the puzzle.
    With this last point every aspects of the OOB games will be retrieve keeping all the main interactions between units.

    What was missing with the Last Warship Taken as casualty rule for Subs is a way to fight to death with them without necessarily losing the costlier warships during an attack. I find a way to sacrifice the cheapest unit without being at the expense of the more important and precious if the first rounds of an attack turn sour.

    It needs only a small rule specific to submarines which allows them to retreat independently from the other attacking units.

    Independent retreat:
    Submarines on attack can retreat before or after the others units retreat.
    This will allows subs a way to continue an attack all by themselves (and to be sacrificed) while all the other units have retreated.

    What do you think now, better isn’t it?


  • yes, subs independent retreat, that was the missing link.

    OOB you can submerge your subs and retreat the planes, and let the surface warships continue the battle. It should be the other way around too. Retreat the ships, but not the subs, or the planes.

  • '17 '16

    @Narvik:

    yes, subs independent retreat, that was the missing link.

    OOB you can submerge your subs and retreat the planes, and let the surface warships continue the battle. It should be the other way around too. Retreat the ships, but not the subs, or the planes.

    I didn’t thought about surfaces ships only retreat.
    It certainly could works with planes and Subs left behind to try to finish off enemy’s units in the SZ.

    I was pondering whether or not Transport should retreat only with warships or have more latitude by being able to choose to retreat with Submarines (& eventually planes) or with warships.

    Any idea what could be better or fairer?

  • '17 '16

    @Narvik:

    yes, subs independent retreat, that was the missing link.

    OOB you can submerge your subs and retreat the planes, and let the surface warships continue the battle. It should be the other way around too. Retreat the ships, but not the subs, or the planes.

    Nonetheless, I think that from a rule perspective, it will be simpler to limit such a retreat to Sub only.

    In addition, in the first few combat rounds of a Naval clash, Destroyers and planes will be discarded (even 2 hits Carriers), to let survive Battleship, Cruiser and StB (maybe).

    And for balance, we must consider that Subs on defense cannot be used as fodder as long as there is any surviving warships, defender cannot retreat. And with a high @2 first strike attack, Subs in itself can be very damaging to a Surface fleet unable to shield itself with Subs (rolling a low @1 for defense and chosen as the last warship casualties), as it was usually the case in OOB.

    However, even without DD, a defending fleet would use her Fgs to a greater range of success against Subs than OOB (per cannot hit subs without DD rule).


  • Subs must be independent of the rest of the fleet.
    In defense and in attack.
    Subs must play first and once the subs are done, go ahead with the warships.

    AL

  • '17 '16

    @crusaderiv:

    Subs must be independent of the rest of the fleet.
    In defense and in attack.
    Subs must play first and once the subs are done, go ahead with the warships.

    AL

    I knew and played this Subs mechanics develop in World War II The Expansion.
    It works with Classics.
    These rules add more phases and have more layers of complexity.

    For example, Battleship and Carrier can be sunk by a single Subs hit.
    There is Anti-Sub mission, Air Search Communication.
    1 roll to find Subs and 1 roll to hit them.
    Subs have a whole round of fire without any reaction. Except for Destroyers.

    That’s the few which I remember.

    There is no possibility of using Subs and Planes together to attack.
    It makes Subs less useful and lonely.

    The Subs have a very different mechanics from all other units.

    That’s why I tried to develop a more integrated Subs mechanics without loosing all the historical background on Subs.

    I think that not being able to use Subs as cheap fodder will make them less popular, they can still works independently as OOB.
    And they can attack and defend with all others units as OOB.

    Here is a link to another thread in which I try to adapt WWII The Expansion to OOB rules:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32248.msg1208515#msg1208515
    Planes attack Subs @1 in this version (combining Search @2 * destroy @3 = 2/6*3/6 = 6/36 or 1/6)

    Below, there is two of your old quotes, explained why I knew what Subs rules you used:
    @crusaderiv:

    You cant take a battleship with a missed die roll! no way, Will not fly. that would mean whenever a sub enters a sea zone on a combat move that contains a battleship or carrier they are automatic sunk? like all your rules but you need to think this one out better.

    Nevertheless it’s very realistic.
    Fishmoto rules seems like the elaborate naval rules from - World war II the expansion for use  with A&A-
    I based my naval game with this expansion with of course… some house rules.
    Subs can’t get a zone of control and may pass through a sea zone controlled by ennemy without
    engaging combat.

    I always liked the idea about escort. During WW II, Capitals warships sails with destroyers.
    When they were alone, they became an easy targets.

    If a carrier is hit by a sub, carrier and fighter on board must be destroyed!

    @crusaderiv:

    I just have a problem sinking a piece without even rolling a dice.
    Same thing here.
    You must rolling die to sink a warship escorted or not.

    The only long range sortee by unescorted battleships that I have ever heard of are the German convoy raiders of WW II. I just feel that there should be some penalty for a player doing such a foolish thing in AA. Maybe a one shot attack and then submerge is enough.

    Either subs attacking unescorted capitol warships get 1 roll, if a 1-2 ship sunk on 1st hit. if sub misses,sub is considered submerged,breaks off attack,but if it stays in sea zone to try again next turn or follows same shipsinto another sea zone to try again next turn, destroyer and cruisers detection roll is upped to 1-4 becouse sub is known to be activly prowling area.

    Well if a player let his warship alone, it could be destroyed.
    Sub must continue his attack after the first round of combat or warship alone can escape after the first round. - But I prefer the first option-.


  • It makes Subs less useful and lonely.
    Lonely yes…Useful? Absolutely not…!
    Subs are the most dangerous unit in the sea. Specially against transport and convoy.
    All units have their utility.
    Plane and sub attack in the same time is too powerful.

    AL.

  • '17 '16

    @crusaderiv:

    It makes Subs less useful and lonely.
    Lonely yes…Useful? Absolutely not…!
    Subs are the most dangerous unit in the sea. Specially against transport and convoy.
    All units have their utility.
    Plane and sub attack in the same time is too powerful.
    AL.

    We are talking apples and oranges.
    My POV is based on OOB Subs rules (which can be modified by my HR to make subs a non-fodder unit for warships, but still keeping OOB Air and Subs coordinate attacks against a mixed fleet).
    Your answer is based on your HR which keeps apart warships & DDs, on 1 side, and Transports & DEs (Destroyer Escorts), on the other side. If you still follow World War II Expansion.

    In addition, according to this rule Subs can only attack by themselves whether against Warships & DDs or against TPs & DEs.

    I know, because have tried it many times on a Classic board, these rules creates an interesting historical dynamics with Air Search Communication for planes and Anti-Sub Mission for DDs and DEs.
    However, they are much more complexes than the OOBs rules (and not for everyone’s taste).
    In addition, it may swing the balance of the game by spreading a lot of difficult to find and destroy Subs which can target transports with DEs only.
    You probably can tell us.

    Here is the first post along this Sub thread in which you explain some aspects of your Subs HR.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32780.msg1251173#msg1251173

    Did you ever develop somewhere in the forum a complete summary of your adapted WWII Expansion Sub Rules (including the stats of both DD and DE)?
    Probably some peoples would like to try yours for change, if they are tired of seeing Subs sinking in the bottom of the ocean so fast in OOB.

    Having more options, besides Knp’s (1 rnd submerge after being attacked), DK’s (1:1 DD blocker vs Sub) or mine (Sub is taken as the last warships casualty+ independent retreat + DK’s), to solve the Destroyers aberrations against Submarines is certainly a good thing.

  • '17 '16

    Crusader IV,
    I have also developed an alternate Subs rules to solve some aberrations issues a few months ago.
    Here is one old and very different Sub HR which allows to use Subs with other warships but required a roll to find them, as you suggested.
    However, it solved only 3 out 4 issues.
    It didn’t solve the Subs fodder effect as my actual HR on Subs is last warships casualties taken.

    In this old HR, Subs have a much better survival rate when operating alone but can be used as cheap fodder because planes can hit them without Destroyers simplifying this interaction. As you will see, the detection rule is a bit complex due to combined arms effect of DDs or planes with Cruiser & Subs :

    @Baron:

    Here, I want to submit another different rules mechanics for aircrafts, destroyers and submarines warfare.
    It will reintroduce some aspects discuss in previous threads on Subs and I intent to put it somewhere half-way between the OOB Sub mechanics and the classic Sub mechanics.

    I will also try to respect as much as possible historical accuracy about planes vs subs, and as much as possible not to be overly complex (the real challenge).

    The main distinction in this Subs HR mechanics is based upon the difference between:
    a) defending Subs alone (or with Transports) in a SZ and
    b) defending Subs with other Warships (DD, CA, CV, BB) in a SZ.

    First, keep as a basic background the OOB Sub A2D1M2C6 and his capacities for submerge and surprise strike.

    Second, all planes keep their basic combat value against subs Fg A3D4 / TcB A3-4D3 /StB A4.

    Third, we need to introduce an Air Search Patrol (for planes) and an Anti-Sub Mission (for warships: Subs, Cruisers, Destroyers but excluding capital ones: CV and BB) which take place when attacking in a single SZ a group of Subs only, or Subs with Transports only.

    Air Search Patrol:
    All planes have to search and find Subs in a SZ before attacking them.
    A plane unit needs a “1” or less to find a Sub.
    If at least 1 plane succeed, then all planes can then make a regular attack, for 1 round only (before the Subs submerge).
    In addition, if at least 1 DD is present (doing an Anti-Sub Mission), each plane unit needs a “2” or less to find a Sub.
    (Said otherwise, a DD unit gives +1 to ASP or ASM rolls.)

    Anti-Sub Mission:
    Each Destroyer unit needs a “2” or less to find a Sub.
    Only successful DDs can then make a regular attack, for 1 round only (before the Subs submerge).
    In addition, if at least 1 plane is present (doing an Air Search Patrol), each DD unit needs a “3” or less to find a Sub.
    (Said otherwise, an aircraft unit gives +1 to ASM rolls.)

    OPTIONAL:
    Other warships (excluding CV and BB), Subs and Cruisers need a “0” or less to find Sub.
    That’s means that these warships need to be with DD or plane to perform an ASM.
    If a plane or a DD is present, it needs a “1” or less to find Subs.
    If both plane and DD is present, it needs a “2” or less to find Subs.
    Only a successful Sub or Cruiser can then make a regular attack, for 1 round only (before the Subs submerge, if defender choose to do so).

    OPTIONAL:
    EXCEPTIONAL Non-Combat Move allowance
    ASM implies to use escorting vessels, such as DD, to be perform in the Subs SZ, and could implies to leave behind bigger ships needing protection and cover.
    So, exceptionally, this optional rule can allow a complete 2 spaces move to any unit performing ASM one SZ away from his starting point. So if the combat take place after using only 1 move, all ASM ships are allowed 1 space Non-combat move in any SZ bordering the one in which they performed ASM. This exceptional ASM NCM move is not a 3 spaces move allowance.

    ASP and ASM are considered simultaneous.

    When all the search rolls are done, only the successful warships and all or none of the planes (according to the ASP results) are considered part of the first combat round.
    If the defending Subs stay for another round instead of submerging, then all the attacking warships and planes will be part of the second round.

    Subs alone on defense:
    Except for planes (which subs cannot hit), defending subs get a Defense roll @1.
    Against Destroyer (and other subs), Subs have no surprise strike.
    Addendum: The attacker’s casualties from Subs can be taken amongst all warships units in the SZ, not just the ones which spotted the Subs. As usual, owner choose casualty.

    If OPTIONAL is included:
    Against Cruiser, subs keep the surprise strike @1 as long as there is no DD present.
    Defending Subs can always choose not to submerge after submitting to the first round of ASP or ASM.
    If it is the case, then, this time, all the attacker’s units in the SZ get a round of direct fire on subs.
    It lasts as long as the defender choose not to submerge (or even destroy all attacker’s warships unit!?).


    Defending Subs with other warships (DD, CA, CV, BB) and scrambling planes (Fg or TcB).
    When others warships or scrambling planes are present, their is no need to search for Subs (via ASP or ASM).
    All planes and warships attack at their regular value.

    However, if there is no attacking DD, Subs keep all capacities (first strike & submerge) and Subs commander can choose to submerge any or all subs during the surprise strike phase.
    Subs can also stay in the battle as cheap fodder for warships, defender’s choice, D0 (vs attacking planes) / D1 (vs attacking warships).

    If an attacking DD is present, then Subs can only submerge at the beginning of the second round (during subs submerge phase and before regular combat phase).
    And couldn’t retrieve their surprise strike until all attacking DDs are sunk.


    Finally, I add another little OPTIONAL Rule, which can be isolated from all the above and be part of OOB subs mechanics:
    Sub targeting RULE
    If Subs on offence get any hit after the first round, the attacker, if he wishes so, can pick a transport as casualty instead of a warships (warships casualties still chosen by owner).

  • '17 '16

    @crusaderiv:

    Subs must be independent of the rest of the fleet.
    In defense and in attack.
    Subs must play first and once the subs are done, go ahead with the warships.
    AL

    Crusader IV,
    here is another Subs HR in which I was mixing 3 games mechanics together:
    1- OOB 1940, 1942
    2- Classic OOB
    3- World War II The expansion I for A&A,  from David Schwartzer.

    To create a more integrated Subs rule which could be more of a chess game for Naval Warfare between Subs, planes, warships (CA, CV, BB), escorts ASV (DD and a new CVE) and transports.
    All having a specific role with strength and weakness.

    The Air Search phase has been deleted by reducing the attack value of planes to @1.
    The odds are the same. 2/6*3/6= 6/36 or 1/6
    Destroyer get a single roll @2.

    One HR I didn’t develop yet was that Subs have 2 options when all these surface vessels are in the same SZ:
    1- attack escort and warships
    2- attack escort and transports (each TT unit having a 1 hit value but D0), letting the defending player choosing casualties between DD, CVE and TT.

    Crusader IV, probably you can provide us some rule mechanics you used to do such separate attack.

    @Baron:

    WARNING: Some additional specific points written in red are covered to take account all Subs naval warfare situations vs Cruisers and vs Subs.

    I’m working on a different kind of naval warfare (a variant I played many times on Classic board which creates a much more chess-like action on the ocean) where Subs act as a lonely and separated group even when sharing the same Sea Zone as other friendly surface vessels and transports.

    Here is some little things of this new HR about Sub Warfare (nSWHR).

    You will see that some anomalies about planes vs Subs created in OOB 1940 and 1942 will disappear:
    A) Planes that need another unit to attack subs.
    B) Subs being used as naval cannon fodder for air and naval attack or defense.
    –----------------------------------------------------------------
    Here is the basics principles:

    As OOB, Sub cannot hit air units.

    Aircrafts (Fg, TcB, StB) can attack Subs anytime, they get only A1 (same in SBR combat) and don’t need any DD or other AntiSub Vessel (ASV) to destroy Subs.

    Battleship cannot attack submarines.
    But, BB still defend @4 against subs, and G40 BB and CV (as OOB) can take 1 hit before going down on a second hit.
    However, 1942 BB must be treat as a 1 hit unit vs Subs attacks. So 1 single shot can sink it, and it is a good thing to provide them DD/CVE cover.
    Play-testing reveal that this change is to make Subs attack an interesting threat against 2 BBs in 1942 version.
    Because they immediately recover at the end of the attacking player’s turn. Without this change, such a fleet with 2 BBs at his core, is virtually invulnerable against Subs attack and won’t requires any DD to provide protection and cover vs Subs.

    Cruiser Att @3 Def @3 vs subs but it is not an ASV.
    It cannot block Sub Surprise strike attack.
    It can go AntiSub Mission (ASM) by itself but
    Subs can defend @1 with Surprise strike (same capacity as OOB).
    So Subs can sink cruisers without ASV before it can even attack (as OOB Sub rule).

    Same last rules applied for 1942.2 Fleet carrier: CV A1D2M2C14 in ASM vs Subs.

    Destroyer A2D2M2C8, ASV as OOB block Subs Surprise strike, will give _+1A bonus to any one plane (Fg, TcB, StB) when paired with for ASM_.*

    There will be an Escort Carrier unit A0D1M2C10, carrying 1 plane (Fg or TcB) ASV, giving a +2A bonus to any one plane (Fg, TcB, StB) paired with while on ASM.

    In counterpart, **subs A2D1M2C6 after a defence roll @1 are able to submerge vs all units at the beginning of the second round of an ASM.

    On offence, Subs can attack Subs but they don’t get any First round Sneak Attack nor Surprise Attack vs each others same as they were 2 regular ships unit. Defending Subs can still submerge after the first round attack, as said below.

    Submerge: allow Sub to withdraw in the same SZ from any battle at the beginning of the second round, and after.

    So Subs become more elusive, and have a better chance to hide even when there is an ASV in the SZ (to the contrary of OOB Global and 1942 where ASV also block Subs Submerge ability).

    In this HR, it was possible to give plane another attacking value (as in a StratBR/TacBR escorting and intercepting role) because even when sharing a SZ, you treat Subs groups as they were in separate SZs (except for “SZ of control” determination):

    if a player with 2Fgs and 3DDs want to attack a SZ with 2DDs and 4 Subs, for example,
    he will have to choose between whether attacking DDs group or attacking Subs group.

    So, it means either A) 2 Fgs A3 + 3 DDs A2 vs 2DDs or B) 2 Fgs A1+1* + 3DDs A2vs 4 Subs.

    Now subs won’t be the cannon fodder of any surface vessels as the OOB will imply in the example.
    2 Fgs+ 3 DDs vs 2 DDs + 4 Subs.

    Because, in this situation, assuming you protect the better defending and costlier unit: the defender will loose 4 subs before loosing DDs.

    And, as usual, the attacker will think twice to throw DDs with aircrafts when there is a bunch of subs.
    It is often better to throw only aircrafts to destroy surface vessels so this OOB battle example will only imply: 2 Fgs vs 2 DDs, since Fgs by themselves cannot hit Subs.

    What do you think of this first part of the basic principles for Subs warfare?


    On the other side,
    when Subs will be attacking, they will attack in a first wave assault of subs only group (before all others units) until retreating or a victory.

    All ASV (DD, escort carrier CVE) will block the Surprise attack as long as there is an ASV defending with other vessels.
    So any surface vessels sunk by subs will still be able to fire back, as in OOB.
    When there is no more ASV, then Subs will retrieve Surprise attack and any ship sunk won’t be able to fireback, as OOB rule.

    Planes will be able to defend against subs (Fg @D4, TcB @D3) without the need of DD (or CVE).

    However, Subs will also get a special “First round sneak attack”, which differs from Surprise strike:

    during the first round, only ASV (DD or CVE+ 1 Fg or TcB carried) can fireback at subs.

    In addition, any successful sub making a hit is allowed (not compelled) _**to withdraw from battle before the DDs and CVEs(+ Fg or TcB on it) return fire against it.

    However, all remaining unsuccessful subs must endure the ASV units defender’s rolls before choosing whether or not to withdraw from battle at the very end of the first round.

    This “First round sneak attack” rule implies that all others ships including Fleet carrier (CV) and any one or two planes on board can only fireback on the second round and after.
    So the new CVE and her 1 plane will have a better defensive and distinctive role from the Fleet carrier against subs.

    Example: 2 subs A2 vs 1 DD D2 and 2 cruisers D3

    ROUND 1
    First rnd sneak attack, subs roll: “1” and “3”, defender choose to sunk the DD.
    1 sub can choose to withdraw. And do it.
    (It is not the best tactical choice, but it is for simplicity.)

    Since it is the first round, only the DD can roll to fireback.
    If it is a hit (“1” or “2”) then the remaining sub is sunk, the battle is over and the 2 cruisers survive.

    (Supposing both Subs have rolled a hit, then the battle could be over if both Subs withdrawn because the DD cannot hit any remaining unsuccessful sub. However, 1 last cruiser have survived the battle.)

    If the DD miss the shot at the last Sub, then this attacking Sub can withdraw (as OOB said).
    But, for the example, suppose 1 Sub stays for a second round.

    ROUND 2
    This lonely sub now have Surprise attack and Submerge since there is no more ASV in the SZ.
    As OOB said at the beginning of the round, Sub can either Submerge or make a Surprise strike.
    Sub goes for the kill:
    a “1” or “2”, then 1 cruiser is sunk without being able to retaliate.
    A miss left the possibility to both cruisers to defend @3.

    Everything continue as OOB rule said.


    Finally, after the battle is concluded,
    if the remaining subs didn’t kill all the enemy units in the SZ, Subs must retreat 1 SZ from where they came.
    if all enemy units are destroyed in the SZ, then subs can choose to either stay in the SZ or they can still retreat 1 SZ from where they came.

    What do you think of this second part of the basic principles for Subs warfare?_

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