@toblerone77:
Again I’ll point to my arguement against realism, historical realism attemps, and trying to correlate real-world numbers to units. Eventually the numbers go back to having 3 total types of units land , sea, and air which IMO is no fun. There is a game called Attack! Which implements this type of system you can get it for $15-20 on Amazon. It’s not exactly the same but comes close.
If we want a simple wargame, we play RISK.
A&A Subs rules have changed many times since 1984, Classic. (See the quote at the end of this post.)
And many rules variants exists for the Board Game or the Hasbro Computer game.
It is part of the challenge to find a way to improve the actual game to keep as much as possible both historical feel and a flowing game mechanics.
Since it is a figurative wargame with sculpts, it is natural to intuitively gives them some caracteristics of the real weapon the sculpt represent.
And A&A is also a beer and breztel wargames, it mustn’t be too much complex and each sequence mechanics shouldn’t be too long either.
It always end with a compromise toward one side or the other of the spectrum.
All I wanted to know about my opening post is**, from experienced players POV, what is the most disturbing aspect of this whole HR which tried to solve the 3 aberrations issues?**
This points toward three aberrations which creates both complex games situations and contrary to a consistent historical simulation:
1- Transport could have been taken last (without too much turmoils ) but the no combat value _makes an infinite number of transports destroyed by a single combat uni_t.
2- A single Destroyer can block an infinite number of Surprise Strike attacking Submarines.
3- The Destroyer can block an infinite number of defending Submarines Submerge.
So a massive number of Submarines can be destroyed (by a large air fleet and a single Destroyer) while the attacker can only lose one Destroyer.
In addition, Planes cannot hit submarines without Destroyers, makes the Carriers very vulnerable against Submarines.
While, historically, Escort carriers were specifically used in submarine warfare.
Aircrafts and 1 destroyer combined with transports on offense against defending Submarines makes for complex situations which needs explicit FAQ.
And some strange unhistorical impossibility to destroy Submarine units and no way of protecting transports against them.
Making for auto-kill or immediate retreat.
@Baron:
Hi everyone,
since the creation of A&A, the submarines rules receives a lot of modifications.
The actual OOB rules on Sub warfare includes mostly 3 units: Sub, destroyers and planes.
The Subs have 6 caracteristics:
1-Stealth movement,
2- First Strike,
3- Submersible and
4-cannot hit aircraft.
A fifth one is derived from aircraft limitation: cannot be hit by aircraft.
A sixth one is an offspring of the no control of SZ for Subs: prevent unescorted transports from offloading for an amphibious assault.
Aircraft: cannot hit subs unless there is a friendly Destroyers which is taking part of the combat.
Destroyer have an Anti-Sub Vessel (ASV) role which negates Subs capacities:
mainly First Strike and Submerge.
In addition, a Destroyer allows all friendly planes to hit submarines during combat.
And also block Submarine stealth movement and force him to battle with DD in a given SZ.
For reference, here is the OOB Submarine rules in different A&A versions:
Classic:
1st Ed. 1984: A2D2M2C8, attacking Subs get Surprise Strike, cannot submerge but can withdraw in another SZ, cannot hit air.
2nd Ed. 1986: A2D2M2C8, attacking Subs get Surprise Strike, cannot submerge but can withdraw in another SZ, cannot hit air.
3rd Ed. 1997: A2D2M2C8, attacking Subs get Surprise Strike, withdraw in another SZ, defending Sub can submerge in SZ at the end of the round, cannot hit air.
Iron Blitz Edition by Hasbro and Microprose 1999, A&A 3rd Ed.:
Sub: A2D2M2C8, Surprise Strike on attack only, can submerge in SZ at the end of the round, cannot hit air.
Destroyer: A2D2M2C8 can retaliate even when hit by subs surprise strike and cancel Subs submerge.
Pacific 2001 and Europe Edition 1999:
Sub: A2D2M2C8, Surprise Strike on attack only, can submerge at the end of the round, cannot hit air, cannot be hit by air.
Destroyer: A3D3M2C12, cancel Surprise Strike and allows planes to hit subs.
Revised Edition 2004:
Sub: A2D2M2C8, First Strike (attacker and defender), can submerge at the end of the round, cannot hit air.
Destroyer: A3D3M2C12, cancel First Strike and Submerge.
Anniversary Edition, AA50, 2008:
Submarine: A2D1M2C6, First Strike, Submersible: can submerge in First Strike phase before regular cmbt, cannot hit air, cannot be hit by air.
Destroyer: A2D2M2C8, cancel First Strike & Submerge and allows all planes to hit subs.
1942.1 (2009) : Same as AA50.
Pacific 1940 (2009) and Europe 1940 (2010): same as AA50.
1942.2 (2012) : Same as AA50.
Plus: prevent unescorted transports from offloading for an amphibious assault.
Pacific 1940 and Europe 1940 2nd Ed. (2012): same as 1942.2.
There is also an evolution of how to treat a Sea-Zone when a sub is present. But, it is also a complex matter, that I left for now.
What I would like to develop is a different relation between aircrafts and submarines; so planes could be able to hit submarines without any destroyer unit.
It will better depict the impact of aircrafts in WWII on Submarine warfare and I hope will create some new tactical situations for naval combat.
I would like also to get rid of the aberration which is created when, paired to others, 1 destroyer unit can give a specific ability to an infinite number of units.
In this specific case:
1 Destroyer gives to an infinite number of planes the ability to hit subs,
1 Destroyer is able to negate the First Strike and Submerge of an infinite number of subs.
For instance, this creates the kind of aberration where 1 DD and a large air fleet can destroy numerous subs and the attacker can only loose 1 single DD unit.
Here someone which said it better than me:
@Fishmoto37:
@Gargantua:
So you’ll have to match my sub purchases with dd purchases? And I defend at a 1, whilst you are just trying to detect me? I don’t know how well that would work… seems to hard to kill the subs.
Well Gar, it is harder to kill subs as we found out in our last 1939 game. That is the whole point. We want to make the subs a more effective unit. In the 1940G OOB rules you can have a German wolf pack of six subs and an allied power can send one destroyer and half a dozen planes and just about wipe out all the subs in one combat round. That is just ludicrous!