• Sponsor

    @Black_Elk:

    Sounds cool to me. Do you dig this color consistency?

    National Objective = +10 ipcs (one specific goal for each player nation)
    Major Objective = +5 ipcs for control of each Victory City (generic goal for all player nations)
    Minor Objective = +3 ipcs (one specific minor goal for each player nation)

    The wording of the +5 VC Major objective could be whatever is needed, so if at war is best, then I’m down. I just think it has a nice simplicity to it, and could match the sort of visual representation we’ve been using all along here at 10, 5, 3.

    On the cards the colors for objectives could also match up.  :-D

    That’s cool, but at this point I’m only interested in how the $5 per VC plays out.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Yeah exactly,  start with the VC +5 thing (which is convenient since VCS are marked on the map with a red dot.) See how the set up balances.

    Then if necessary or desired, add in the next level with National Objectives, or Minor objectives, balanced for the gameplay based on just the simple VC situation.

    Who knows though maybe we get lucky just on the VC balance, such that you don’t even need the extra layer on top unless you want it. Then the NOs would truly be optional, which would be kind of rad.

  • Sponsor

    Here’s what might happen in most games using VCs worth $5 each (cities at war only) instead of NOs…

    Round 1

    Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $15
    Russia - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
    Japan - NOs = $10 / VCs = $10
    United States - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
    China - NOs = $6 / VCs = $0
    United Kingdom - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
    Italy - NOs = $0 / VCs = $5
    Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
    France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0

    Axis - NOs = $20  / VCs = $30  
    Allies - NOs = $16 / VCs = $20

    Round 2

    Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $15
    Russia - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
    Japan - NOs = $0 / VCs = $20
    United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
    China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
    United Kingdom - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
    Italy - NOs = $5 / VCs = $5
    Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
    France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0

    Axis - NOs = $15  / VCs = $40  
    Allies - NOs = $30 / VCs = $40

    Round 3

    Germany - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
    Russia - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
    Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
    United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
    China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
    United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
    Italy - NOs = $5 / VCs = $5
    Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
    France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0

    Axis - NOs = $15  / VCs = $40  
    Allies - NOs = $30 / VCs = $55

    Round 4

    Germany - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
    Russia - NOs = $8 / VCs = $15
    Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
    United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
    China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
    United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
    Italy - NOs = $10 / VCs = $10
    Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
    France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0

    Axis - NOs = $20  / VCs = $45  
    Allies - NOs = $33 / VCs = $55

    Round 5

    Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $20
    Russia - NOs = $8 / VCs = $10
    Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
    United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
    China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
    United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
    Italy - NOs = $12 / VCs = $5
    Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
    France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0

    Axis - NOs = $27  / VCs = $45  
    Allies - NOs = $16 / VCs = $50

    Here’s what happened:

    G3 DOW and a J2 DOW
    Italy took Cairo I4
    UK liberated Cairo UK5
    Germany took Paris GI
    Germany took Leningrad G5

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Very interesting YG! This is good stuff! Keep it comin’ :-)

    Its interesting to see how that “at war” condition can effect things. Question though, wouldn’t it make more sense to do the DoW aspect for the entire Nation (and all VCs under its control) rather than by specific city? Because I think to be at war with anyone should be enough to activate them. I am leary of anything for example, that treats Calcutta differently from say London. If UK is at war with Germany, then it seems like India should count towards that effort, even if the war with Japan has yet to begin.

    To keep everything as simple as possible at the outset, I am still testing a basic +5 at collect income for everybody just to see what values it produces. From the player’s standpoint this is really easy to add in, since you just count up the Red dot VCs under your control and take a 5 dollar bill from the bank for each one.

    If, as expected, this basic lay out takes us from Axis always win, to somewhere on the “Allies win” side, then that is likely a small victory. Because what we could do then, is just add in whatever NOs we need on balance. So say for example that in the basic VC +5 game, Germany and Italy end up weaker, but Japan ends up stronger. Then when you add in the Axis NOs you could make the German and Italian ones easy, but the Japanese one hard to achieve. Likewise you could make all the Allied NOs hard to achieve relative to the Axis NOs.
    Or Vice Versa, if the opposite balance is needed. Basically you see where the balance shakes down under the VC scheme first, and then bring NOs into it as needed.

    Especially if you had two tiers of objective cash beyond the +5 VC (the +10 National Objective, and +3 Minor Objective) to work with. You could make these easier or harder to achieve by nation/side based on the new Halifax conditions rather than the OOB conditions.

    This is an opportunity to be creative if we want, when it comes to which National or Minor objectives come into play, and how the values for them break down. The reason I like the automatic +5 for VC control is that its very easy to read. You don’t have to worry about “what just happened” with the territory, whether it was just captured or just liberated or not, whether its at war or anything else, the only thing you need to know is who controls it currently. Red dot for +5 at collect income, as basic as I could think to make it.

    Right now it looks like this most basic bonus produces a set up more amenable to Allied victory. If it works, then solid, if not, we can still tweak it down to restrict the conditions for when the VC +5 is to be collected. (Whether at War or not, or if some other condition needs to apply, like being newly captured/re-captured etc.)

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    National Objective = +10 ipcs (one specific goal for each player nation)
    Major Objective = +5 ipcs for control of each Victory City (generic goal for all player nations)
    Minor Objective = +3 ipcs (one specific goal, or series of related goals, for each player nation)

    Thinking about this some more, right now there a pretty much two kinds of NOs OOB, ones that deal with unit location (like naval NOs) and ones that deal with territories controlled.

    I think you could put the wording on Major and Minor Objectives to give the flavor of both if you wanted.

    The Major Objective +10 might read (+10 for control of territories A and B and C)
    The Minor Objective +3 might read (+3 for control of any territory X or Y, or Z)
    These for the Nations where Objectives like that make sense.

    For other Nations you might have the Objectives read something like +10 or +3 for something related to Navies.

    Basically whichever Objectives makes sense for that faction, and its income needs on Game balance. Does that make sense?

  • Sponsor

    I agree, Calcutta should count, so 5$ for all VCs if you are at war with at least 1 Enemy power… that should even out that $20 swing for Japan.

  • Sponsor

    @Black_Elk:

    National Objective = +10 ipcs (one specific goal for each player nation)
    Major Objective = +5 ipcs for control of each Victory City (generic goal for all player nations)
    Minor Objective = +3 ipcs (one specific goal, or series of related goals, for each player nation)

    Thinking about this some more, right now there a pretty much two kinds of NOs OOB, ones that deal with unit location (like naval NOs) and ones that deal with territories controlled.

    I think you could put the wording on Major and Minor Objectives to give the flavor of both if you wanted.

    The Major Objective +10 might read (+10 for control of territories A and B and C)
    The Minor Objective +3 might read (+3 for control of any territory X or Y, or Z)
    These for the Nations where Objectives like that make sense.

    For other Nations you might have the Objectives read something like +10 or +3 for something related to Navies.

    Basically whichever Objectives makes sense for that faction, and its income needs on Game balance. Does that make sense?

    This is a pretty cool idea and I would definitely like to see all the NOs for each level. However, for Halifax to stay simplistic and close to the core rules as possible, I think the VC idea is about as far out on a limb that I want to go. The thing about national objectives is that its like a sensitive eco system… it has to stay very balanced to what it once was, or everyone will reject it as being lop sided.

  • Sponsor

    *EDITED TO INCLUDE CALCUTTA ROUND 1

    Here’s what might happen in most games using VCs worth $5 each (nation must be at war with at least 1 enemy nation) instead of NOs…

    Round 1

    Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $15
    Russia - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
    Japan - NOs = $10 / VCs = $10
    United States - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
    China - NOs = $6 / VCs = $0
    United Kingdom - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
    Italy - NOs = $0 / VCs = $5
    Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
    France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0

    Axis - NOs = $20  / VCs = $30  
    Allies - NOs = $16 / VCs = $25

    Round 2

    Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $15
    Russia - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
    Japan - NOs = $0 / VCs = $20
    United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
    China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
    United Kingdom - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
    Italy - NOs = $5 / VCs = $5
    Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
    France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0

    Axis - NOs = $15  / VCs = $40  
    Allies - NOs = $30 / VCs = $40

    Round 3

    Germany - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
    Russia - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
    Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
    United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
    China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
    United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
    Italy - NOs = $5 / VCs = $5
    Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
    France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0

    Axis - NOs = $15  / VCs = $40  
    Allies - NOs = $30 / VCs = $55

    Round 4

    Germany - NOs = $5 / VCs = $15
    Russia - NOs = $8 / VCs = $15
    Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
    United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
    China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
    United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
    Italy - NOs = $10 / VCs = $10
    Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
    France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0

    Axis - NOs = $20  / VCs = $45  
    Allies - NOs = $33 / VCs = $55

    Round 5

    Germany - NOs = $10 / VCs = $20
    Russia - NOs = $8 / VCs = $10
    Japan - NOs = $5 / VCs = $20
    United States - NOs = $20 / VCs = $15
    China - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0
    United Kingdom - NOs = $0 / VCs = $15
    Italy - NOs = $12 / VCs = $5
    Commonwealth - NOs = $5 / VCs = $10
    France - NOs = $0 / VCs = $0

    Axis - NOs = $27  / VCs = $45  
    Allies - NOs = $16 / VCs = $50

    Here’s what happened:

    G3 DOW and a J2 DOW
    Italy took Cairo I4
    UK liberated Cairo UK5
    Germany took Paris GI
    Germany took Leningrad G5

  • Sponsor

    The extra cash in the game would really justify the Major factory capability of producing 5 units. That’s what I realized today when play testing… the Allies couldn’t take advantage of the extra production capabilities.

  • Sponsor

    @Young:

    Here’s what might happen in most games using VCs worth $5 each (nation must be at war with at least 1 enemy nation) instead of NOs…

    So if Russia attacks Japan, should they get $15 for their VCs? it would give Russia the boost it needs to defend itself from a Moscow crush, and for Japan it would negate the Mongolians.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Yeah and you figure, like every A&A board in history, Russia is invariably the player who needs the cash infusion the most.  :-D

    Lets not forget after all, that there was a war here between Japan and Russia for a time. Remember Zhukov ;)
    The non aggression neutrality pact itself wasn’t signed until 1941 (and even then Japan still considered breaking it.)

    Basically the way everything shakes out, the Russians will be at war with Germany soon enough anyway. Seems fair to me to give them the VC loot from the first round if they declare.

    Right now there is no real advantage for the Soviets to maintain the NAP with Japan anyway. Everyone I know always just declares against them in the first round regardless, with the NAP serving as little more than a showpiece. I prefer keeping it the same for everyone, so if Russia declares they should get it I think, same as the rest.

    Like you, I was also thinking that a bit more cash to get the Majors up and running would be cool. In my experience most players enjoy a slight infusion of cash to the game, so long as it is evenly doled out. This way you bring a little in on all sides, enough IPCs to cover the spread, but without over-complicating the situation too much. Everyone gets to enjoy a few more ipcs for units to build, and new strategies can be worked out in response.

    VC bonus +5
    Just like the red chip, and the old red 5 dollar bill, all VCs are conveniently denoted on the map already with a Red dot. It’s kind of perfect

    No need yet for more complex objectives. Everyone has the same simple goals, to take cities for the +5 ipcs. I think it could really work.

    At any rate, it would make the Commonwealth, the new unified UK, and Russia! all pretty fun to play…

    Help-Them-Now-Mrs.-Churchills-Red-Cross-Aid-To-Russia-Fund.jpg

  • Sponsor

    Here’s what I came up with…

    VICTORY CITY BONUSES

    Nations will no longer collect bonus income for national objectives, instead, during the collect income phase, each nation will collect victory city bonuses.

    10 IPCs for each capital city

    • Washington
    • London
    • Paris
    • Berlin
    • Rome
    • Moscow
    • Tokyo

    5 IPCs for each non-capital city

    • Ottawa
    • Warsaw
    • Cairo
    • Leningrad
    • Stalingrad
    • Calcutta
    • Shanghai
    • Hong Kong
    • Manila
    • Sydney
    • Honolulu
    • San Francisco

    Nations may collect VC bonus income for every city they control, as long as they are at war with at least 1 other nation.

    China may still produce artillery if the Burma road is open.

  • Sponsor

    I really like this for a lot of reasons…

    1. It’s clean and simple
    2. Russia can earn some protection money by DOW on Japan SU1
    3. Germany can compete with Russia’s income due to Paris and Berlin at $10 each
    4. A Russian DOW on Japan will allow for action on that front, as the Mongolians are neutralized
    5. More income into the came will compliment the new major factories everywhere
    6. Italy will get $10 for income, and $10 for Rome to start… that’s not to shabby
    7. Japan can easily make $25 in bonuses as early as J2… they can no longer be ignored
    8. Helps the UK to protect London, India, with enough left to place units in South Africa
    9. Allows Germany the economic flexibility to build up their fleet if they so desire
    10. With Germany making so much cake, Sealion is back as a viable strategy

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Beautiful!

    And note also how easy all of that is to read!

    This is the sort of the thing that gets us the cash we need for the game to actually function, while preserving a reasonably balanced, epic scale game, that makes good use of the starting Majors. It could potentially provide the whole game with a more equitable balance (Axis vs Allies.) Also the divisions with 10 and 5 seem to match up pretty well.

    In effect you could say that all red dots (VCs) are worth 5 ipcs, and Capitals are getting an extra 5 on top of this (since you know, they’re Capitals) thus bringing them to 10 total. Feels totally doable, and can work with other types of rules as well if desired. But as a baseline, you’ve got a really strong start for each Nation/Side. I think it is great! sounds easy to implement, but also opens up a whole new strategic experience. Nice work

    ps. that spread with the Capitals at 10 is near perfect. It gets each Nation up off the ground and income balance seems sound. Also the genius here is that the two big objective bonuses +10 for a capital and +5 for all other VCs, fits almost exactly the IC/Major scheme.

    If the balance is close, as I expect it will be, then this leaves the door open if necessary to add in a last minute tweak on balance, by adding in a Minor Objective +3 (for each nation.) These minor NOs could be used to fine tune if needed, and then you’d have only one kind of specific objective to remember the +3. Just like the minor factory, it would be the only special case. Everything else Objectives wise, being basically generic

  • Sponsor

    @Black_Elk:

    Beautiful!

    And note also how easy all of that is to read!

    This is the sort of the thing that gets us the cash we need for the game to actually function, while preserving a reasonably balanced, epic scale game, that makes good use of the starting Majors. It could potentially provide the whole game with a more equitable balance (Axis vs Allies.) Also the divisions with 10 and 5 seem to match up pretty well.

    In effect you could say that all red dots (VCs) are worth 5 ipcs, and Capitals are getting an extra 5 on top of this (since you know, they’re Capitals) thus bringing them to 10 total. Feels totally doable, and can work with other types of rules as well if desired. But as a baseline, you’ve got a really strong start for each Nation/Side. I think it is great! sounds easy to implement, but also opens up a whole new strategic experience. Nice work

    Thanks for bringing it to my attention, it sounds similar to my Delta rule system, but here with Halifax… all the NOs are out.

  • Sponsor

    Did the math on the Pacific side and saw a $25 bonus swing for Japan while the US stays idle. Had no choice but to modify the setup, and remove a Japanese fighter, and a Japanese tactical bomber from Manchuria (which is what most people have always wanted anyway… now it makes perfect sense).

  • Customizer

    +1 YG :wink:

  • Sponsor

    Thanks Tolberone!  :mrgreen:

  • Sponsor

    FYI…

    If the Axis prove to be consistantly weak, we should give Japan back their air units.
    If the Allies prove to be consistantly weak, we should give US the War Bonds tech for free.

  • Sponsor

    I’ve been thinking all day about the Soviet Union DOW on Japan just to collect $15, and how this effects Germany. There has to be consequences for the Allies if Russia wants to collect $15 in free income at turn 1, and this is what I think is fair…

    War conditions for collecting VC bonuses

    A nation must be at war with at least 1 other nation in order to collect their VC bonuses for each city they control.

    If the Soviet Union declares war on Japan by making an unprovoked attack, declares war without attacking, or declares war by moving units into Chinese territories, all Mongolian territories and standing armies will immediately become Japanese controlled.

    China may still produce artillery if the Burma road is open.

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