Chinese legal move



  • I had a discussion last weekend over a move by a chinese figher.
    It was landing in burma but the UK was not yet at war with japan, so in this situation i could not attack the fighter without declaring war to the UK.

    My argument was that since the UK-india is a neutral power you cannot move units in.
    His argument was that the UK is at war with germany so not really neutral, and that the china rules approve of china moving into burma.

    I think this move is kinda cheesy it basicaly protects chinese units from japan, japan has to declare war before it can attack a unit from a country that it is already at war with.



  • Bad news, but I believe your friend is right. The Chinese fighter is safe (Confound them!!). IF the territory Burma didn’t belong to the UK you could attack the fighter. A similar example is hiding US ships next to Indian ones in the Pacific sz’s. Japan could attack the Indian ones while ignoring the US ones because US ones are not at war and cannot be involved in combat (check the rules on me here, but that’s what I remember reading).

    By the way, it’s a good Chinese move and something most of the time should be done. Copy him when you play China haha.



  • @Surrender@20:

    Bad news, but I believe your friend is right. The Chinese fighter is safe (Confound them!!). IF the territory Burma didn’t belong to the UK you could attack the fighter. A similar example is hiding US ships next to Indian ones in the Pacific sz’s. Japan could attack the Indian ones while ignoring the US ones because US ones are not at war and cannot be involved in combat (check the rules on me here, but that’s what I remember reading).

    By the way, it’s a good Chinese move and something most of the time should be done. Copy him when you play China haha.

    But you are not allowed to move units into zones that belong to countries that are currently not at war. You could say that since india is not at war with japan it is still neutral.

    The example from the ships is not the same as the ships are not safe from attack without DOW. But this means that as soon as russia declares war UK units can land on their lands as well and be safe from german counter?

    Or put a japanese plane on an italian zone if UK attacks it brings japan into the war without US if it does not then the zone is safe as well.


  • TripleA

    China is allowed in burma. War or no war.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The rulebook says “The United Kingdom and ANZAC have a special relationship, and they are treated as one for political purposes. They are both at war with Japan’s allies, Germany and Italy, on the other side of the world, so they are not completely neutral. […] The United States begins the game neutral. […] There are only five powers in the game (Japan, the United States, China, the United Kingdom, and ANZAC). While one of these powers (the United States) begins the game neutral, neutral territories begin the game not being controlled by any power.”  Most of this supports the conclusion that the UK isn’t neutral at the start of the game, but the part which says that the UK is “not completely neutral” is an odd bit of phrasing.  I assume that this refers to the fact that the UK starts Pacific 1940 at war with two countries that aren’t represented on the game map, and at peace with the countries which are represented on the game map.  But I can imagine that a competent diplomat (if diplomacy was part of the game system) could successfully argue either side of the issue of whether or not the move is allowable, especially given that the “Chinese” fighter represents the Flying Tigers – American aircraft flown by neutral American pilots, but nonetheless considered a Chinese unit under the game rules.  (There’s a hilarious scene in the movie The Battle of The River Plate in which the German, French and British ambassadors to neutral Uruguay are each arguing their respective positions to the Uruguayan Foreign Minister about whether or not the Graf Spee should be interned, my favourite part being the Foreign Minister’s sarcastic line, “Ah, yes – the much-quoted Geneva Convention.”)

    Anyway, Krieghund should be able to give an official ruling on this interesting question.


  • TripleA

    China starts the game at war and is allowed to go to kwangtung and burma.

    Being in Burma is not exactly safe you know.


  • Customizer

    I think there is another way to view this. At the beginning of the game, Japan is at war with China only. UK/ANZAC are NOT at war with Japan so are technically neutral on the Pacific side. The rules say that if the UK moves units into China, Japan will consider that a declaration of war by the UK on Japan. So, while the UK is not at war with Japan, they can not move UK units into China.
    It seems to me that it would work the same way with Chinese units. While the UK is not at war with Japan, Chinese units can not enter Burma or Kwangtung. The rule for Chinese units entering Burma and/or Kwangtung makes reference to them doing so to attack Axis units currently occupying those territories, although I know they can also make non-combat moves into those territories as well. I just think they shouldn’t be able to do that until the UK is at war with Japan, at which time they will officially be allies.


  • TripleA

    A power at war can move units into neutral territories. China is at war.


  • Official Q&A

    The Soviet Union is the only power that has special rules for neutrality on specific maps.  All other powers are either neutral or not, across the board.  UK-ANZAC is at war with Germany and Italy, and therefore not neutral.  Chinese units can enter Burma and Kwangtung regardless of UK-ANZAC’s status toward Japan, as neither power is neutral and there are no special rules preventing such a move.



  • @Krieghund:

    The Soviet Union is the only power that has special rules for neutrality on specific maps.  All other powers are either neutral or not, across the board.  UK-ANZAC is at war with Germany and Italy, and therefore not neutral.  Chinese units can enter Burma and Kwangtung regardless of UK-ANZAC’s status toward Japan, as neither power is neutral and there are no special rules preventing such a move.

    So if the UK and ANZAC are not neutral, then they must be free to collect all national objectives regardless of wether or not Japan is at war with the Pacific Allies, right?


  • TripleA

    If you DOW on Japan, Japan is at war with you, yes you collect.



  • @Cow:

    If you DOW on Japan, Japan is at war with you, yes you collect.

    That wasn’t my question, Krieghund says that the UK and ANZAC begin the game at war with Germany and Italy, therfore… they should collect national objectives if they’re not neutral regardless of if they DOW with Japan or not.



  • grasshopper I believe anzac and india collect those NO’s regardless of their state of war period. I don’t have a rulebook in front of me, but I don’t remember reading anything about the NO’s only being collectible while at war.



  • @Surrender@20:

    grasshopper I believe anzac and india collect those NO’s regardless of their state of war period. I don’t have a rulebook in front of me, but I don’t remember reading anything about the NO’s only being collectible while at war.

    Only nations at war are able to collect national objectives unless its a peace time NO stated in the national objective description.


  • '14 Customizer

    UK and ANZAC are not neutral since they are war with Germany and Italy but this line in rule book might help explain why they don’t get their NO

    When the United Kingdom Is at War with Japan (awarded to the Pacific economy):
    • 5 IPCs if the United Kingdom controls both Kwangtung and Malaya. Theme: Maintenance of the empire considered vital
    national objective.  P38



  • @cyanight:

    UK and ANZAC are not neutral since they are war with Germany and Italy but this line in rule book might help explain why they don’t get their NO

    When the United Kingdom Is at War with Japan (awarded to the Pacific economy):
    • 5 IPCs if the United Kingdom controls both Kwangtung and Malaya. Theme: Maintenance of the empire considered vital
    national objective.  P38

    …and we have always played that way, but I was confused when Krieghund said…
    @Young:

    @Krieghund:

    The Soviet Union is the only power that has special rules for neutrality on specific maps.  All other powers are either neutral or not, across the board.  UK-ANZAC is at war with Germany and Italy, and therefore not neutral.  Chinese units can enter Burma and Kwangtung regardless of UK-ANZAC’s status toward Japan, as neither power is neutral and there are no special rules preventing such a move.

    So if the UK and ANZAC are not neutral, then they must be free to collect all national objectives regardless of wether or not Japan is at war with the Pacific Allies, right?



  • Back to the flying tiger landing in Burma…… just think of it as an American volonteer group (not a Chinese air force) then allowing it to land in British controlled Burma even before UK/US is at war w/Japan makes more sense. The US sent these planes to the port of Rangoon in Burma with American “volunteer” pilots to basically side step neutrality in 1941 (although the game starts w/tiger in 1940, and its in China). This group was based in Burma before Pearl Harbor and did most of its training there. The flying tigers first action took place shortly after Pearl, and their objective at the time was to defend the Burma Road and keep the the supply line open. The tigers were based at both ends of the Burma Road in Rangoon Burma, and Kunming China (northern end of the Burma road). The Tigers weren’t fully relocated to China until after most of Burma (including Rangoon) was lost early in 1942.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers


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