• Customizer

    I think I do the same as toblerone77. I use the HBG Airborne Infantry and Transport Plane sculpts for Paratroops and make them available to any nations I have the sculpts for. While so far only the US, Germany and Japan have unique Airborne sculpts, plus Russia also has a Transport plane, thanks to the US Supplement sets in Allied colors, I can let UK, ANZAC and France have paratroopers. For Italy, I use the FMG pieces of their BR20 Transport plane and Sub-Machine gun Infantry unit to represent paratroops.
    I have made this a unit available to any nation from the beginning of the game. On my tech board, I have replaced the Paratroop tech with Heavy Tanks.
    Here’s the following stats for Paratroops and Transport planes we use:

    Paratroops – A 2, D 2, M 1, C 4 – Attack @ 3 on first round of an Airborne Drop. Paratroops load onto a transport plane at an Airbase and can be carried by the transport plane to a battle area within the range of the transport plane. If transport plane is hit by AA, paratroopers are lost with the transport plane. Paratroops can also be dropped behind enemy lines and take control of any empty territory that does not contain a victory city, facility or capital. Paratroops may also attack lightly defended territories behind enemy lines but if the battle goes badly, there is no retreat for the paratroops.

    Transport Planes – A 0, D 0, M 6, C 9 – Transport planes movement are affected by bonuses like all other aircraft – +1 from Airbase, +1 with Long Range tech, +2 from Airbase with Long Range tech.
    Transport planes have no combat value and operate much like naval transport ships. If an enemy force attacks a territory that contains transport plane(s) in addition to combat units, the transport planes are the last units to be destroyed. If an enemy force moves into a territory containing only transport planes, the transport planes are automatically destroyed.
    Transport planes can transport 1 Airborne Infantry during combat move up to the limit of transport’s range as long as it can land in any friendly territory. Airborne infantry MUST be loaded at an Airbase.
    During Non-Combat Move, Transport planes can transport 1 infantry unit of any type from any friendly territory to any other friendly territory.
    During Non-Combat Move, Transport planes can transport 2 infantry units of any type from any friendly Airbase to any other friendly territory. To move 2 infantry, they MUST be loaded at an Airbase.

  • Customizer

    @knp7765:

    I think I do the same as toblerone77. I use the HBG Airborne Infantry and Transport Plane sculpts for Paratroops and make them available to any nations I have the sculpts for. While so far only the US, Germany and Japan have unique Airborne sculpts, plus Russia also has a Transport plane, thanks to the US Supplement sets in Allied colors, I can let UK, ANZAC and France have paratroopers. For Italy, I use the FMG pieces of their BR20 Transport plane and Sub-Machine gun Infantry unit to represent paratroops.
    I have made this a unit available to any nation from the beginning of the game. On my tech board, I have replaced the Paratroop tech with Heavy Tanks.
    Here’s the following stats for Paratroops and Transport planes we use:

    Paratroops – A 2, D 2, M 1, C 4 – Attack @ 3 on first round of an Airborne Drop. Paratroops load onto a transport plane at an Airbase and can be carried by the transport plane to a battle area within the range of the transport plane. If transport plane is hit by AA, paratroopers are lost with the transport plane. Paratroops can also be dropped behind enemy lines and take control of any empty territory that does not contain a victory city, facility or capital. Paratroops may also attack lightly defended territories behind enemy lines but if the battle goes badly, there is no retreat for the paratroops.

    Transport Planes – A 0, D 0, M 6, C 9 – Transport planes movement are affected by bonuses like all other aircraft – +1 from Airbase, +1 with Long Range tech, +2 from Airbase with Long Range tech.
    Transport planes have no combat value and operate much like naval transport ships. If an enemy force attacks a territory that contains transport plane(s) in addition to combat units, the transport planes are the last units to be destroyed. If an enemy force moves into a territory containing only transport planes, the transport planes are automatically destroyed.
    Transport planes can transport 1 Airborne Infantry during combat move up to the limit of transport’s range as long as it can land in any friendly territory. Airborne infantry MUST be loaded at an Airbase.
    During Non-Combat Move, Transport planes can transport 1 infantry unit of any type from any friendly territory to any other friendly territory.
    During Non-Combat Move, Transport planes can transport 2 infantry units of any type from any friendly Airbase to any other friendly territory. To move 2 infantry, they MUST be loaded at an Airbase.

    Yeah we’re pretty similar. I’m more liberal in some aspects.

    As for YG’s idea, I like the simplicity and understand his goal to stick with OOB pieces. However I’m a piece junkie and would probably put units on the board if for esthetics alone.


  • @Young:

    My next question is…. I know that the Americans, British and Germans (gliders into Belgium) all had the ability during the war to more or less “drop” infantry from the air, but how about Japan, Russia, Italy, or ANZAC? And considering that the feat is more of a tactical training method and not necessarily a technological advancement, how much of a stretch would it be to accept that all nations could do it? in other words… considering the fact that it’s possible in A&A for ANZAC to obtain the Radar or Rockets technology, couldn’t they learn how to drop infantry from a plane without spending money for research? Â

    One way to look at this question would be keep in mind that A&A is basically a strategic-level game, and thus that it depicts large-scale operations rather than tactical actions.  I think that nearly all the A&A player nations (except for China) did have (or certainly could have developed) some para units in WWII – but the distinction I’d make between the US, the UK and Germany on the one hand and all the other countries on the other hand is that only those three countries developed para forces large enough to tackle strategic-scale targets (like the invasion of Crete or Operation Market-Garden).  So that would be a possible rationalization for keeping paras a tech: they represent the large investment required not just to produce units of the paratrooper type but also to produce them on a large enough scale (at minimum at the divisional level, I’d say) for them to have an impact at the A&A game’s strategic level.

    I have begun creating my own house rule set for A&A 1940 Global called Delta, and I was hoping to pick your brains from time to time with some simple questions. <<

    By the way, will your consultants on this project be code-named the Delta Force?  :-D

  • Sponsor

    @knp7765:

    I think I do the same as toblerone77. I use the HBG Airborne Infantry and Transport Plane sculpts for Paratroops and make them available to any nations I have the sculpts for. While so far only the US, Germany and Japan have unique Airborne sculpts, plus Russia also has a Transport plane, thanks to the US Supplement sets in Allied colors, I can let UK, ANZAC and France have paratroopers. For Italy, I use the FMG pieces of their BR20 Transport plane and Sub-Machine gun Infantry unit to represent paratroops.
    I have made this a unit available to any nation from the beginning of the game. On my tech board, I have replaced the Paratroop tech with Heavy Tanks.
    Here’s the following stats for Paratroops and Transport planes we use:

    Paratroops – A 2, D 2, M 1, C 4 – Attack @ 3 on first round of an Airborne Drop. Paratroops load onto a transport plane at an Airbase and can be carried by the transport plane to a battle area within the range of the transport plane. If transport plane is hit by AA, paratroopers are lost with the transport plane. Paratroops can also be dropped behind enemy lines and take control of any empty territory that does not contain a victory city, facility or capital. Paratroops may also attack lightly defended territories behind enemy lines but if the battle goes badly, there is no retreat for the paratroops.

    Transport Planes – A 0, D 0, M 6, C 9 – Transport planes movement are affected by bonuses like all other aircraft – +1 from Airbase, +1 with Long Range tech, +2 from Airbase with Long Range tech.
    Transport planes have no combat value and operate much like naval transport ships. If an enemy force attacks a territory that contains transport plane(s) in addition to combat units, the transport planes are the last units to be destroyed. If an enemy force moves into a territory containing only transport planes, the transport planes are automatically destroyed.
    Transport planes can transport 1 Airborne Infantry during combat move up to the limit of transport’s range as long as it can land in any friendly territory. Airborne infantry MUST be loaded at an Airbase.
    During Non-Combat Move, Transport planes can transport 1 infantry unit of any type from any friendly territory to any other friendly territory.
    During Non-Combat Move, Transport planes can transport 2 infantry units of any type from any friendly Airbase to any other friendly territory. To move 2 infantry, they MUST be loaded at an Airbase.

    Thanks KNP for that great analysis of your house rule, much more detailed than what I myself am going for, but your post really shows the challenges involved in getting the paratrooper rule right (or at least close).

  • Sponsor

    @CWO:

    @Young:

    My next question is…. I know that the Americans, British and Germans (gliders into Belgium) all had the ability during the war to more or less “drop” infantry from the air, but how about Japan, Russia, Italy, or ANZAC? And considering that the feat is more of a tactical training method and not necessarily a technological advancement, how much of a stretch would it be to accept that all nations could do it? in other words… considering the fact that it’s possible in A&A for ANZAC to obtain the Radar or Rockets technology, couldn’t they learn how to drop infantry from a plane without spending money for research?

    One way to look at this question would be keep in mind that A&A is basically a strategic-level game, and thus that it depicts large-scale operations rather than tactical actions.  I think that nearly all the A&A player nations (except for China) did have (or certainly could have developed) some para units in WWII – but the distinction I’d make between the US, the UK and Germany on the one hand and all the other countries on the other hand is that only those three countries developed para forces large enough to tackle strategic-scale targets (like the invasion of Crete or Operation Market-Garden).  So that would be a possible rationalization for keeping paras a tech: they represent the large investment required not just to produce units of the paratrooper type but also to produce them on a large enough scale (at minimum at the divisional level, I’d say) for them to have an impact at the A&A game’s strategic level.

    I have begun creating my own house rule set for A&A 1940 Global called Delta, and I was hoping to pick your brains from time to time with some simple questions. <<

    By the way, will your consultants on this project be code-named the Delta Force?   :-D

    Although I respect the logistics and training involved in pulling off an airborne assault, I don’t feel it’s that far ahead of a strategic bombing campaign, or amphibious assault including bombardment and air support. I also understand your point about an infantry drop being a tactical operation rather than a large scale strategy, I would say that Kamikaze pilots fit that bill as well and they are represented in the regular rules rather than a “R&D tech”.

    If I do call it the delta force… you can be Chuck Norris  8-)

  • Sponsor

    After some thought, I think the G40 paratrooper rule as is… is a very “safe” direction to go for implementing a “regular” paratrooper rule in a lot of ways…

    1. It really limits the amount of infantry that can be dropped during a single turn, this should prevent a surprise attack of 10+ infantry overwhelming an unsupported enemy territory from 3 spaces away.

    2. Although it’s difficult to picture how games with KNP’s house rule turns out, I’m assuming that an air transport might be the transport unit of choice in most scenarios. So in my uneducated opinion, the limit of 2 infantry per airbase should avoid making the sea transport obsolete (or at least less attractive).

    3. Using paratroopers as support for an attack coming from land or sea just makes sense IMO, I can’t imagine that it was often where infantry were dropped into hostile territories alone without any rendezvous with other friendly forces. If there were such cases in the war, it should be an exemption to the rule rather than allowing it to happen all the time during the course of an A&A game.

    4. Although the current paratrooper rule is not very sexy, it seems to be more likely acceptable to the casual player who may find it difficult to… or unwilling to… obtain the extra sculpts for a simple house rule. However, Baron’s advise to make each nation pay for the special ability if they want it seems very reasonable.

    I’m thinking a one time fee of $5 will give your nation the paratrooper ability for the rest of the game, it can be purchased any time during the purchase new units phase and becomes active immediately. Thoughts?

  • '17 '16

    @Young:

    4. Although the current paratrooper rule is not very sexy, it seems to be more likely acceptable to the casual player who may find it difficult to… or unwilling to… obtain the extra sculpts for a simple house rule. However, Baron’s advise to make each nation pay for the special ability if they want it seems very reasonable.

    I’m thinking a **one time fee of $5 will give your nation the paratrooper ability for the rest of the game, it can be purchased any time during the purchase new units phase and becomes active immediately. Thoughts? **

    For once, I don’t say such crazy things like Munchhausen.  :-D
    Getting a marks on the calendar.  :wink:

  • '22 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    I like the one-time fee: it’s simple and fairly realistic. I was thinking of making it $6-7, just to make it a more significant investment.

    Just thinking from a balance perspective that investing in paratroopers from the start gives Germany some flexibility for Sea Lion, the ability to add infantry to the invasion without transports is huge.

  • Sponsor

    @General:

    I like the one-time fee: it’s simple and fairly realistic. I was thinking of making it $6-7, just to make it a more significant investment.

    Just thinking from a balance perspective that investing in paratroopers from the start gives Germany some flexibility for Sea Lion, the ability to add infantry to the invasion without transports is huge.

    Understood, I guess my only answer to that would be… where will Germany find an extra $5 during the first 2 rounds when all their income is getting spent on transports.

  • Customizer

    @Young:

    @General:

    I like the one-time fee: it’s simple and fairly realistic. I was thinking of making it $6-7, just to make it a more significant investment.

    Just thinking from a balance perspective that investing in paratroopers from the start gives Germany some flexibility for Sea Lion, the ability to add infantry to the invasion without transports is huge.

    Understood, I guess my only answer to that would be… where will Germany find an extra $5 during the first 2 rounds when all their income is getting spent on transports.

    Well, since the ability becomes active immediately and you pay for it during the Purchase Units phase, Germany could pay for Paratroops on Round 3 and use it for Sealion.
    Round 1 > Germany buys Aircraft Carrier and either 2 transports or 1 destroyer/1 sub.
    Round 2 > Germany buys 10 transports
    Round 3 > Germany pays $5 for Paratroops and buys whatever else it needs. Combat Move == OPERATION SEALION. Then in addition to 11-13 transports full of men and equipment, and additional 4 infantry can paradrop from the air bases in Paris and W Germany.

    I can see why keeping the rule like OOB would be attractive to some. It is somewhat simpler plus you don’t need a special sculpt. I realize not every A&A player is a terribly addicted piece junkie like me.

    As for using the transport planes, I thought making it mandatory that to use paratroops you had to pay 1 extra IPC for the paratroop plus buy a transport plane @ 9 IPCs would make it unlikely for anyone to abuse it (such as the example above where suddenly 10+ infantry suddenly “appear” out of nowhere.).

  • Sponsor

    @knp7765:

    @Young:

    @General:

    I like the one-time fee: it’s simple and fairly realistic. I was thinking of making it $6-7, just to make it a more significant investment.

    Just thinking from a balance perspective that investing in paratroopers from the start gives Germany some flexibility for Sea Lion, the ability to add infantry to the invasion without transports is huge.

    Understood, I guess my only answer to that would be… where will Germany find an extra $5 during the first 2 rounds when all their income is getting spent on transports.

    Well, since the ability becomes active immediately and you pay for it during the Purchase Units phase, Germany could pay for Paratroops on Round 3 and use it for Sealion.
    Round 1 > Germany buys Aircraft Carrier and either 2 transports or 1 destroyer/1 sub.
    Round 2 > Germany buys 10 transports
    Round 3 > Germany pays $5 for Paratroops and buys whatever else it needs. Combat Move == OPERATION SEALION. Then in addition to 11-13 transports full of men and equipment, and additional 4 infantry can paradrop from the air bases in Paris and W Germany.

    I can see why keeping the rule like OOB would be attractive to some. It is somewhat simpler plus you don’t need a special sculpt. I realize not every A&A player is a terribly addicted piece junkie like me.

    As for using the transport planes, I thought making it mandatory that to use paratroops you had to pay 1 extra IPC for the paratroop plus buy a transport plane @ 9 IPCs would make it unlikely for anyone to abuse it (such as the example above where suddenly 10+ infantry suddenly “appear” out of nowhere.).

    Do you think that nations should wait a turn after purchasing paratroopers before they can use them?

  • Customizer

    Guys,

    ––As I’ve been quite busy of late I’ve just noticed this discussion that interests me quite a bit. First off, let me say that what I’ve come to like is only MY OPINION and if it’s not what everyone else likes that’s cool! Everyone can decide houserules for themselves. However, I see a lot of value in having a “basic” Paratrooper house rule that most everone can agreed with. The players that I game with the most see the double-sided blade of Research/Developement in our A&A games. A player spends $$$$$ and either Dominates the game or looses because he failed to develope something. We prefer the more straight forward “my strategy against yours” approach and so don’t allow R/D.

    ––I have some DEFINATE preferences,…IMHO:
    *Only Air Transports can be used for (n/c)Air Transport or ©Paratroop Drops, no Bombers ever
    *Air Transports must begin from an Air Base
    *Only ONE Paratrooper per Air Transport
    *Air Transports should be allowed to be purchased from the start of the game. IMHO when we require the purchase of Air Transports and use of Air Bases this should be enough of an “investment” requirement
    *A maximum of FOUR (4) Paratroopers per nation except China
    *Paratroopers can conquer a National Capital ONLY in conjunction with other forces jointly, not as a solo attack

    Geronimo!

    Tall Paul

    usairforce1.jpg
    usairforce2.1.JPG


  • @Tall:

    ––I have some DEFINATE preferences,…IMHO:
    *Only Air Transports can be used for (n/c)Air Transport or ©Paratroop Drops, no Bombers ever
    *Air Transports must begin from an Air Base
    *Only ONE Paratrooper per Air Transport
    *Air Transports should be allowed to be purchased from the start of the game. IMHO when we require the purchase of Air Transports and use of Air Bases this should be enough of an “investment” requirement
    *A maximum of FOUR (4) Paratroopers per nation except China
    *Paratroopers can conquer a National Capital ONLY in conjunction with other forces jointly, not as a solo attack

    I agree with almost everything but the purchasing limit. There are no limits on Battleships or tanks, so why limit the Paratrooper ? Should there be a limit on transport planes too ? You can buy 10 Transport planes, but only 4 Paratroopers ? No sir, if I run a nation, and I want to spend all my dollars on Transport planes and Paratroopers, who would stop me ? I don’t sit there as a cry baby if you spend all your dollars on Battleships.

  • Sponsor

    Great sculpts Tall Paul.

    So it sounds like it wouldn’t be a big deal to bump the OOB rule to 3 infantry instead of 2 (considering how liberal people feel about unlimited troops).

  • Customizer

    @Narvik:

    I agree with almost everything but the purchasing limit. There are no limits on Battleships or tanks, so why limit the Paratrooper ? Should there be a limit on transport planes too ? You can buy 10 Transport planes, but only 4 Paratroopers ? No sir, if I run a nation, and I want to spend all my dollars on Transport planes and Paratroopers, who would stop me ? I don’t sit there as a cry baby if you spend all your dollars on Battleships.

    I agree with you Narvik. We don’t limit the number of paratroopers any nation may have at one time. Since you need transport planes to move the paratroopers, the only limit is how many paratroopers and transport planes you can buy.
    We only limit the special/elite units (US Marines, UK Commandos, Russian Guards, German SS, Japanese SNLF) because they have a little better attack or defense values plus some sort of special ability. Even though they are a little more expensive, it would just seem kind of silly for some nation to have a whole army of elite troopers.

  • Customizer

    Gentlemen,

    @knp7765:

    We only limit the special/elite units (US Marines, UK Commandos, Russian Guards, German SS, Japanese SNLF) because they have a little better attack or defense values plus some sort of special ability. Even though they are a little more expensive, it would just seem kind of silly for some nation to have a whole army of elite troopers.

    ––I believe that by anyone’s definition Paratroopers would be considered “Special/Elite” units. And as such it seems only logical that they should also be limited in number just like the other “Special/Elite” units are simply to keep the game from becomming unbalenced. This is a gameplay balancing issue,….but
    ---- I might refer to the real world history as a guide because there were usually about 25 times more line Infantry units than there were Airborne units. One of the main reasons for this was simply that the Airborne units took the “cream of crop” best soldiers,…and there were only so many of them.
    ----Possibly the MAXIMUM number of Airborne units could be raised to SIX.

    ––I believe discussion is a GREAT thing, as long as it is open, honest, and contrinutes to the ‘cause’ without becoming personal or bitter. Even if something is 180 per cent wrong by your opinion you’re always free to make whatever house rule YOU like for your own games.

    Tall Paul

  • Customizer

    Tall Paul,
    I understand what you are saying and I do consider airborne to be a type of “Elite/Special” unit. In our games, airborne units HAVE to be taken by transport planes AND only 1 paratroop is allowed per transport plane. So, for each paratroop drop you are looking at an investment of 13 IPCs each (4 IPCs = paratroop, 9 IPCs = transport plane).
    So, even in the case of the US that starts with 52 IPCs, if they wanted to spend their entire IPCs on paratroops, they could only get 4 paratroops plus 4 transport planes.
    In effect, the requirement to purchase a transport with each paratrooper places a limit on the number of paratroops any nation can have on the board at one time.
    Granted, I guess a nation could keep buying transports and paratroops over several rounds resulting in one country having a whole bunch of paratroops. However, that would probably be an unwise strategy for any of the nations to buy paratroops and transports only. No tanks for Germany? No combat aircraft for UK? No warships for US or Japan?
    I think the other nations would welcome such a development. “Oh, you have a bunch of paratroops and transport planes? Good! Now I’m going to invade you with my stack of tanks and mechs.”

    Now, perhaps you don’t use the transport aircraft and simply have the airborne units launch themselves from air bases (like the OOB tech rules)? In that case, I could understand a rule limiting airborne units to a certain number like with any other “Special/Elite” units.
    By the way, do you use other elite units like SS, Guards, Marines, etc.?


  • @knp7765:

    Granted, I guess a nation could keep buying transports and paratroops over several rounds resulting in one country having a whole bunch of paratroops. However, that would probably be an unwise strategy for any of the nations to buy paratroops and transports only. No tanks for Germany? No combat aircraft for UK? No warships for US or Japan?
    I think the other nations would welcome such a development. “Oh, you have a bunch of paratroops and transport planes? Good! Now I’m going to invade you with my stack of tanks and mechs.”

    This made me laugh!

    I think paratroopers are definitely elite divisions - look at the falschirmjaegers - hence the increased attack capacity. However, i agree with knp7765 that the number should not be restricted. If any nation took the extra time and resources (represented by 1 extra IPC of cost) to train and equip all their combat troops as such, they could definitely do so and make an ‘elite army’. Historically, the Wermacht started out as a highly disciplined, trained, and motivated force as a whole that swept up inferior armies, because they knew they couldnt match the rest of Europe man-for-man. As Germany became short on time and resources, however, they could no longer train their men so well, and the overall quality decreased drastically. Of course, one ‘infantry’ for Russia may include twice as many men as a german ‘infantry’, but have half as much quality, so be worth the same; which is why all german units do not start out as ‘elite units’.

    Just my 2 cents.


  • @knp7765:

    I think the other nations would welcome such a development. “Oh, you have a bunch of paratroops and transport planes? Good! Now I’m going to invade you with my stack of tanks and mechs.”

    Yes, this would echo the principle of unequal force ratios stated in the proverbial Law of the Sword, which says “The guy with the gun usually wins.” Â

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