Different Approach to Marines. Edit: Elite/Marine units.


  • 2017 2016

    @toblerone77:

    Good stuff KNP! very similar ideas have rattled around in my mind, but you hit it dead on with the paras and transports.

    On paratroopers,
    I must avow that I didn’t share your enthusiasm KNP & toblerone.
    A round @3 is very high.
    Transport mode should have a similar cost on avg.
    A 2 places plane need to cost at least 8 IPCs.
    8 + 4 + 4 = 16 /2 = 8 IPCs/unit.
    This is the same ratio for an Inf & a Tnk.
    This last one brings 4 attack points  (1 + 3).
    2 Paratroopers should not bring more.

    So IMO, a balance unit is simply A1-2 D2 M1 C4, get A2 when airdropped.

    The other balancing problem is with Air transport  NCMove.
    You can move 2 reg Inf for an avg of 8 + 3 + 3 = 14 /2 = 7 IPCs/unit.
    It is inside limits but they goes farther in a single turn than with sea transport and at no risk.
    Because of this I would raise cost of AirT to 12 IPCs or limit their cargo to Paratroopers only.


  • 2017 2016

    @Baron:

    On paratroopers,
    I must avow that I didn’t share your enthousiasm KNP & toblerone.
    A round @3 is very high.
    Transport mode should have a similar cost on avg.
    A 2 places plane need to cost at least 8 IPCs.
    8 + 4 + 4 = 16 /2 = 8 IPCs/unit.
    This is the same ratio for an Inf & a Tnk.
    This last one brings 4 attack points  (1 + 3).
    2 Paratroopers should not bring more.

    So IMO, a balance unit is simply A1-2 D2 M1 C4, get A2 when airdropped.

    The other balancing problem is with Air transport  NCMove.
    You can move 2 reg Inf for an avg of 8 + 3 + 3 = 14 /2 = 7 IPCs/unit.
    It is inside limits but they goes farther in a single turn than with sea transport and at no risk.
    Because of this I would raise cost of AirT to 12 IPCs or limit their cargo to Paratroopers only.

    Sorry, I misread.
    If an Air transport can only drop 1 Para then 1 round @3 seems ok.
    However, I would limit NCM to 2 Paratroopers and only them.

    I think there is some historical background also to not let reg Inf units travel by plane.

    What is the cost of your aircraft transport KNP? 9 IPCs, fine.
    EDIT: Thanks for the very complete answer in this post:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33678.msg1287232#msg1287232


    EDIT note:
    Reading more threads on this topic, I find this much more realistic:
    Paratrooper A1-3 D2 M1 C4,
    get A3 for the first combat round only when airdropped
    *,
    can received A2 when supported by Artillery.

    • Moved by air transport either 1 in CM or 2 units NCM.
    • In CM can only be dropped in…

    an enemy controlled territory that is being attacked by your land units from adjacent territories and/or by amphibious assault. If the territory being attacked has an antiaircraft gun, the air transport unit (with paratrooper unit) is subject to antiaircraft fire in the same way as other air units. If attacking along with land units from adjacent territories, paratroopers may retreat as normal.

    It gives the feel that surprise effect is over and they have diminishing supplies.
    Basically, they work as regular Infantry past the first round.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_forces

    @Imperious:

    So you have to do a few things with them to make them work.

    They need a punch and attack at 2 is not really a punch
    They need to ‘wither away’ after the first round to simulate lack of supplies

    They need to not be expendable, so people wont throw them in battles every turn because they are worthless compared to other units.

    They need to have some counter to thwart them as a defense and limitations of where they can land.

    So how bout first round 3, all other rounds its attack at 1. In defense they are at 2
    They cost 5 because at 4 they will become expendable and artillery will suffer.

    They cant be dropped in capitals and not dropped too far away say 2-3 spaces ( prob say 2 like OOB rules)

    also i guess you should limit quantity to 3 or 6 of these…


  • 2017 2016

    About cost balance of Elite/Marines, here is a first point:

    The 4 IPCs and 7 IPCs Marines unit transportation cost is relatively balance on the long run, when a player can use for a second time some transports.
    After the first travel, where it is better for Marines unit, the transportation ratio is reversing toward regular units.

    FIRST TRAVEL                                                        / SECOND TRAVEL, same transport
    Cost ratio for Regular unit transportation:
    3 (transport + Inf + Inf)                                                 3 (Inf + Inf)
    3 (7+3+3) = 39 IPCs /6 grounds = 6.5 IPCs/unit  /  3(3+3)= 18 IPCs +39 = 57 IPCs/12= 4.75 IPCs/unit

    2 (transport + Inf + Tnk) + 1 (transport + Inf + Inf)        (4 Inf + 2 Tnk)
    2*(7+3+6) + 1*(7+3+3)= 45 /6 units = 7.5 IPCs/unit  /  12 + 12 = 24 IPCs + 45 = 69 IPCs /12 = 5.75 IPCs/unit

    Cost ratio for Marines unit transportation:
    2 (transport + Inf + Inf + Inf)                                        2 (Inf + Inf + Inf)
    2*(7+4+4+4)= 38 /6 units = 6.33 IPCs/unit             /      2*(4+4+4)= 24 IPCs + 38 = 62 IPCs /12 = 5.167 IPCs/unit

    2 (transport + Inf + Inf+ Tnk)                                       2 (Inf + Inf + Tnk)
    2*(7+4+4+7)= 44 / 6 units = 7.33 IPcs/unit            /      2*(4+4+7)= 30 IPCs + 44 = 74 IPCs /12 = 6.167 IPCs/unit

    So, after a second travel, with the same 12 units the transportation ratio is improving for regular units compared to Marines ones:

    for 12 Infs vs 12 Marines Infs =  4.75 vs 5.167 IPCs/unit.

    for 8 Infs+ 4 Tnks vs 8 Marines Infs + 4 Marines Tnks = 5.75 vs 6.167 IPCs/unit.


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